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Aeroflot-Nord Crash Pilots Not 737 Qualified  
User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 3
Posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13766 times:

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1010/42/372073.htm

According to this Moscow Times article, which quotes the head of the State Aviation Inspection Service, the pilot and copilot of the ill-fated Aeroflot-Nord (the once and future AVL) 737-500 that crashed in poor weather near Perm had fake certification documents showing they passed pre-flight training courses. The flight attendants, according to the official, also had false documents to fly internationally, although they were on a domestic flight at the time.

Aeroflot immediately dumped its subsidiaries after the crash, way before any crash analysis was done, and I am not saying the parent company knew something was wrong at that point, but.....

While the pilots had thousands of hours on Tupolev aircraft, clearly they were not very familiar with 737-500 and crashed on their second attempt to land at Perm.

in Russian here: http://gudok.ru/index.php/news/24429 among other places.

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13736 times:

I forgot to add that Aeroflot-Nord refutes the assertion of the head of the State Aviation Inspection Service and notes that the Russian Transport Ministry approved certification of the aircraft and asserts that the crew was properly trained and certificated. In Russian only here: http://www.aeroflot-nord.ru/news/actual/?file=2115153110200834

User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13203 times:



Quoting Afay1 (Thread starter):
fake certification documents showing they passed pre-flight training courses

It would be most interesting to see how they got them and who else (if any) was involved.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7624 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13142 times:
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Wow. If there turns out to be any truth at all in these claims, anyone who had any part in it deserves pursuing to the full extent of the law. May God forgive them if they have done this.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13796 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12684 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Wow. If there turns out to be any truth at all in these claims, anyone who had any part in it deserves pursuing to the full extent of the law. May God forgive them if they have done this.

Northern Siberia, here theycome. A nice vacation for 20 years in some salt mine or similar.

Jan


User currently offlinePylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12476 times:

If those facts get confirmed by official investigation which is under way - it would absolutely outrageous.

"Moscow Times" is of tabloid category. I wouldn't pay much attention to their writings.


User currently offlineSuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12205 times:



Quoting Pylon101 (Reply 5):
"Moscow Times" is of tabloid category. I wouldn't pay much attention to their writings.

That context is good to know. Not saying it isn't true (i.e. National Inquirer and the John Edwards Affair), but it at least causes a second thought on the validity of the claim.



Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5961 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11790 times:
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There was an article in Airways several months ago about pilots faking qualifications and or hours in the log book. The artcile was talking mostly about Africa, but I would think it can happen anywhere.


My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinePliersinsight From United States of America, joined May 2008, 485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11681 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 7):
The artcile was talking mostly about Africa, but I would think it can happen anywhere.

True enough. The thing that shocked me the most when I first started flying is that logbooks and endorsements don't have serial numbers or some sort of official seals/stamps to them. I guess it would be near impossible to come up with someting as to endorsements...type ratings and the like go on your license if I am correct which would be hard to fake, but theother stuff, and actualy hours, well, scouts honor I guess. Catching somebody in a logbook lie would be pretty easy I suppose, but still....


User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7624 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11599 times:
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Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Northern Siberia, here theycome. A nice vacation for 20 years in some salt mine or similar.

I get your point, but leave out the silly stereotypes, eh? If they have done wrong they will go to prison.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11544 times:



Quoting Pylon101 (Reply 5):
"Moscow Times" is of tabloid category.

Is it that bad?

Check out these two:

www.moscowtimes.ru
www.mk.ru

My vote for tabloid goes to the second one - but I can only speak for myself of course.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 41
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10481 times:

As a pilot myself, I can't get my head around faking type ratings, training, logbook hours, etc. If someone asked me to go fly 777's (an aircraft I'm not rated to fly), I would NOT want to have that machine in my hands without knowing what I was doing. It's not just a job - I'll end up dying along with all the pax if I lose control and lawn-dart (like in the aforementioned Nord flight). Makes no sense to me.

Furthermore, the very fact that the ENTIRE CREW had false documents indicates that this is certainly a widespread problem. Further confirming this is Aeroflot immediately severing ties with these carriers. Aeroflot should be in just as much trouble as Nord.

If I do visit Russia, I'll be sticking to rail travel.

Drew  wave 



I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlinePylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10278 times:

O, www.mk.ru is the lowest level.

"Moscow Times" appears to be decent. It's owned by Russians. And articles are written by English speaking natives residing in Russia. It's free. You can just pick it up at any BP gas station in Moscow.

Categorization of MSM is a disputable thing. It's all about attitudes.


User currently offlineFoxDelta From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10209 times:



Quoting Afay1 (Thread starter):
he pilot and copilot of the ill-fated Aeroflot-Nord (the once and future AVL) 737-500 that crashed in poor weather near Perm had fake certification documents showing they passed pre-flight training courses

... and you believe the press with such a statement??

ignorants
 yell 


User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9843 times:



Quoting FoxDelta (Reply 13):
... and you believe the press with such a statement??

ignorants

The guy said it, he does have that official position for that specified governmental agency, you are welcome to do google searches to prove it. Whether or not there is a political game going on between him, his office, and Aeroflot is a different question, and possible, but given the bogus aircraft parts scandals that even grounded the presidential IL-96 in Finland, is it so much of a jump to believe that some companies have crew with bogus certs?


User currently offlineSFO2SVO From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8474 times:

Read a few articles mentioned here - and then some - but still do not completely understand: what exactly was falsified?
I am not saying anything fake is acceptable - but was it as bad as fake type certification or something like a missing signature on preflight medical check?



318-19-20-21 332 343 717 727 737-234578 743-4 752 763 772 D9/10 M11/8x/90 F70 RJ85 ATR72 SF340 E120 TU34/54 IL18/62/86/9
User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7271 times:



Quoting FoxDelta (Reply 13):

OK...then let us NOT listen to the press...last year a group from the same country tried to STEAL an MD-87 and did in fact, steal it, ...however the plane was forced down before it exited US airspace by the US military into a widwestern state before it flew into Canadian airspace...That my firend...NEVER made the news, only turned up in local tabloid in midwestern town. Believe it or not...


User currently offlineArgonaut From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2004, 421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7159 times:



Quoting Soon7x7 (Reply 16):
last year a group from the same country tried to STEAL an MD-87 and did in fact, steal it

Maybe I've missed something big. If so...sorry. But what are you talking about??



'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
User currently offlineSFO2SVO From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7034 times:



Quoting Argonaut (Reply 17):
Maybe I've missed something big. If so...sorry. But what are you talking about??

Got curious too.
I guess this one:
http://www.avtoday.com/asw/topstories/9916.html

The article does not go into much detail as far as who took the a/c and if anyone was actually convicted of stealing it. MD-87 turned up in Moscow the following month:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/McDonnell-Douglas-MD-87/1220558/M/

so apparently the issue is resolved.

Still not sure what it has to do with Aeroflot-Nord's 737



318-19-20-21 332 343 717 727 737-234578 743-4 752 763 772 D9/10 M11/8x/90 F70 RJ85 ATR72 SF340 E120 TU34/54 IL18/62/86/9
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7015 times:



Quoting Pylon101 (Reply 5):
"Moscow Times" is of tabloid category. I wouldn't pay much attention to their writings.

Mosocw Times is definitely not a tabloid newspaper. They actually have a lot of very good stories.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6376 times:



Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 18):

The common threads here are in fact, if the above 737 crew allegations are correct, derraliction regarding civil aviation law and safety.

Quoting Argonaut (Reply 17):

I received an email from a publication in Oslo Norway regarding a photo of mine and regarding their use of it...I then received another email from a publication in Mosco that wanted to purchase same images...I needed to know how the image was to be used...in short, I was informed that the aircraft was involved in an "unusual ferry flight", (I'm being PC here) as the aircraft had belonged to a client of mine, I researched this news with my client and I was informed that the validity of the story was indeed true...., big news in my opinion, yet it went un noticed...and yes...finally the situation has been resolved.

Quoting FoxDelta (Reply 13):

My reply was to FDELTA ...as you can't believe the press, your correct but they just don't rotely make stories up to fill pages...they speculate at best and run with fouth party info but where there is smoke, usually their is fire...in the case of the above incident I referred too...a real newsbraker...didn't even get coverage or much if any.


User currently offlineRJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

Wow! No doubt they will have problems in collecting their claim for their insurers as this constitutes gross negligence.


Chance favors the prepared mind
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6590 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5081 times:



Quoting FoxDelta (Reply 13):
... and you believe the press with such a statement??

Well, open your eyes and see that it is possible to do a lot of forgeries in the aviation business.
Heck, I saw a >5,000hr discrepancy on 2 separate records of the same aircraft once. There was a case where a group of pilots arrived at the training center, 6 of them, and all stepped out with their annual checks done...

Heck, I've even seen a document about "alterations of pilot records" ordered by the management of an airline...

So why not forged licenses and type ratings?

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 1):
I forgot to add that Aeroflot-Nord refutes the assertion of the head of the State Aviation Inspection Service and notes that the Russian Transport Ministry approved certification of the aircraft and asserts that the crew was properly trained and certificated.

Of course they would...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineKalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4864 times:

So far, the only official message is that Nord's "flight operations and safety procedures ... meet certification requirements".
source: http://www.favt.ru/news/index.php?idmd=news_081101
Google translation:
http://translate.google.com/translat..._081101&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ru&tl=en


User currently offlineSQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

Even if I think that there are a lot of things going wrong in Russias Civil Aviation I can' t believe that this is true. This would also come back on the Russian Aviation Authority and make them watch like clowns. And Back we have all the old stories about unsafe Russian Aviation

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