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Did This Aircraft Land?  
User currently offlineManchesteruk From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 140 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16188 times:

jus checking through intenet pages came across this video, if u fast forward to 2min 07 see the 757 land,this aircraft seems to go a long way down an still no touch down,never been to madeira so cant say just wondered if it was possible ?



http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...Airlines_Aviation_Video-11009.html

[Edited 2008-11-01 10:12:41]

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16113 times:
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Whow that IS nuts. I know Madera is a long runway (3700 meters I read) but that is a long way down. If you look at the next clip there is a Finnair 757 parked on the ramp so it did land (although maybe not first time). My money is that they did land and slam on the anchors over the crest.

Sandyb123



Member of the mile high club
User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17061 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16087 times:



Quoting Sandyb123 (Reply 2):
My money is that they did land and slam on the anchors over the crest.

Well it seems almost impossible, because they went down really far.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16084 times:

Can't really tell from there, if he did land he was a long way down the runway from where you would normally have aircraft touch down.

User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17061 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16052 times:



Quoting Theginge (Reply 4):
if he did land he was a long way down the runway from where you would normally have aircraft touch down.

But it seems that the AY 757 passed well over half of the RWY. BTW, it is called a she, not he  Wink



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineBWilliams From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16030 times:



Quoting Sandyb123 (Reply 2):
(3700 meters I read)

2777 meters according to Wikipedia (not the greatest source, but whatever).

Judging from that, I'd be surprised if it got down on that attempt... would have been some seriously hard braking, I'd assume.



Regards, Brad Williams
User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15986 times:

Read the comments of the video - according to others who were there that day, the B752 did land.

User currently offlineBakersdozen From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15906 times:

check out this photo of the airport from the otehr direction. You can see at the end of the parking tarmac there is still about 1/3rd of runway left. It appears from the video that the 757 touched down around there so still enough stopping room, although cutting it real close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flughafen_Madeira_1.jpg


User currently offlineBoogyJay From France, joined May 2005, 490 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15880 times:

Very nice video !

But reading that this 757 landed at the attempt being shown here is difficult to believe. Unless they were low on fuel, I don't see why the captain would put his + the pax lifes in danger... for what ? save on fuel ?


User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17061 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15782 times:



Quoting Bakersdozen (Reply 8):
check out this photo of the airport from the otehr direction. You can see at the end of the parking tarmac there is still about 1/3rd of runway left. It appears from the video that the 757 touched down around there so still enough stopping room, although cutting it real close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F...1.jpg

Wow, looking at that picture makes this even scarier if the a/c landed, because there is not much room left for any mistakes at the end of that runway.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30855 posts, RR: 86
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15658 times:
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Considering how strong that crosswind was and how much of a problem the crew was having bringing her down, it might have been more irresponsible to abort the landing and do a go-around. For all we know, he might have been really light so he wouldn't need much runway to bring it safely to a halt.

[Edited 2008-11-01 12:01:54]

User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1694 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15484 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
it might have been more irresponsible to abort the landing and do a go-around.

No, after half of the runaway!!!!! (1500m) they must go around and even before. it was really irresponsible and dangerous. (except in emergency)

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
For all we know, he might have been really light so he wouldn't need much runway to bring it safely to a halt.

He wouldn´t?? A problem with a brake or with the reverse and everybody to the water.


I really hate that gusting days. When the plane doesn´t want to land.


Very nice landings and a well done by the pilots.


User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15333 times:

A typical case of pilots fixated on landing.

You can see it bounce hard on the runway at 2:59.

Between overflying the displace threshold at 2:35 and 2:59, there's 24 seconds.
Supposing they had a GS of 130 kts (Vref - headwind) or 240km/h or 67m/s, they have used up 1608 meters of runway before touchdown...
The runway 5-23 has a length of 2781 meters minus a displaced threshold of ??

Which means that they had less than 1000 meters left to stop...not impossible for a B757 but too close for comfort.

They should have gone around, there's no doubt.
Compare the approach to the other liners... the B757 is diving nose down towards the runway on short final (nose gear lower than main gear at observer's eye-level). A typical too fast/too high approach...

This is how overruns happen.

As to fuel, if Madeira was their intended destination and it was their first attempt to land, they should have had enough fuel left for diversion and landing at at the diversion airport and additional contingency for the expected X-winds that they should have read about in the weather reports....


User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15290 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
it might have been more irresponsible to abort the landing and do a go-around.

It's NEVER irresponsible to go missed, unless there's an emergency. Always remember altitude is your friend, especially when your close to the ground. It's ALWAYS a better idea to go around and try again if it doesn't look good (except in an emergency, which it may still be a good idea to go around, depending on the severity of the emergency).


User currently offlineJorge1812 From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 3149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15225 times:



Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 8):
Unless they were low on fuel, I don't see why the captain would put his + the pax lifes in danger... for what ? save on fuel ?

Correct, he should've gone around but probably he didn't noticed - that's how accidents could happen.

georg


User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 720 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14610 times:

very easy to critice guys by just watching a video
its well known that madeira is one of the most difficult and complicated airports to operate in to


User currently offlineBTCCMan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14547 times:

That has to have been a go-around. I have been to Madeira, and by the time he touched down, I estimate less that 1,000m at best...

User currently offlineJorge1812 From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 3149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14547 times:



Quoting Antonovman (Reply 15):
very easy to critice guys by just watching a video

For sure, but it looks close and when we can belive what some people know who wrote here it was close or would've been safer to try again.

georg


User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14286 times:

My guess as an aviation enthusiast and NOT a pilot Big grin is that they should have gone around.

Here's another video, albeit from a different angle, showing where the 757 normally lands. Its also shows the length of the runway so you can kind of see where the 757 in the first video landed

http://www.flightlevel350.com/aviation_video.php?id=9932



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14196 times:

Non of us (armchair DFO's) here were there for the event so honestly can't really comment on whether he should have gone around. Pilots judgement etc.............

User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13883 times:

All the OP asked was "Did this aircraft land?" and instead we get the usual armchair critics giving their subjective opinion on whether it was safe or not.

The video was taken on Oct 26th.

This could have been an empty positioner in to take people home on the last flight of the summer schedule, so he was as light as he is ever going to be, with Vref speeds to match.

Funchal is notorious for turbulence and wind shear, so his weight will have made him more susceptible to the conditions, but even taking that into consideration, I would judge the PF's judgement over a group of internet flight simmers who would probably be better off judging the X-Factor than a professional pilot's abilities.  Yeah sure

Shamu

[Edited 2008-11-01 15:58:09]


So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineJorge1812 From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 3149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13856 times:



Quoting Theginge (Reply 19):
Non of us (armchair DFO's) here were there for the event so honestly can't really comment on whether he should have gone around. Pilots judgement etc...........

One of the comments from the video:

Quote:
Left by Selcal on October 30, 2008 - User's Vote: Visitor Rating: 4.5/5
I was there, actually visible in the video with the white shirt. The 757 actually landed, which was a crazy decision. I was filming it as I was expecting a go-around. We all were. I fly for a living; and with flight data monitoring in my airline I would've been pulled into the office for that. Shows how things are different everywhere. Great video! Much better than my own that day.



User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13663 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 20):
This could have been an empty positioner in to take people home on the last flight of the summer schedule, so he was as light as he is ever going to be, with Vref speeds to match.

Empty enough to stop it in less than 1000 meters?

Quoting Theginge (Reply 19):
Non of us (armchair DFO's) here were there for the event so honestly can't really comment on whether he should have gone around. Pilots judgement etc.............

None of us were there but none of us are blind either.
Don't need to be a PHD or the pilot in that cockpit to figure out that we could have seen a "Finnair 757 overruns at Madeira" thread on this very forum.

Runway overruns/overshoots are the most likely accidents around airports, not surprisingly.
I wouldn't be surprised if the pilots received retraining after this incident.

[Edited 2008-11-01 16:04:37]

User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13577 times:



Quoting NCB (Reply 22):
Empty enough to stop it in less than 1000 meters?

You're making alot of suppositions in your initial post to arrive at that figure. Empty, Vref could have been at or less than 130kts before you account for the wind, so your elapsed calculations could, and probably are, completely out.



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13388 times:



Quoting NCB (Reply 12):
You can see it bounce hard on the runway at 2:59.

Rubbish. You can see no such thing. What you see at 2:57 is the nose dropping. The mains could have touched down at any time before then.



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
25 BlueShamu330s : Sorry Stitch, I missed your nugget of wisdom there.
26 WestJetYQQ : Perhaps he was referring to the pilot.
27 Jonjonnl : Sure but you're comparing them to TAP Portugal pilots who are extremely experienced in what concerns FNC. I cannot say whether they should have chose
28 Threepoint : When the following A330 lands, you can see (at 03:54 of the video) the 757 sitting pretty at the gate, so we can assume that at some point it landed j
29 EDICHC : Regardless of suppositions, this a/c touched-down way, way beyond the marked TDZ. For a commercial pilot to continue the attempt to land was at best,
30 Planesarecool : Since when is Madeira a Summer only destination? It wasn't a positioning flight, Finnair have charter flights to Funchal year round.
31 Flykal : Assuming that 757 did land, then there's certainly a good case for a CRM study. We can only hope that if the runway was contaminated or braking action
32 AcNDTTech : Wouldn't nose down be to increase speed, nose up to slow down and add power to gain altitude, reduce power to loose altitude?
33 ABpositive : Actually, to be grammatically accurate, the pronoun used should be IT
34 Threepoint : Are you both commercial airline pilots? Are you fully conversant with the landing characteristics of the Boeing 757? Were either of you participants
35 NCB : Sincerely I don't care, it's whatever you say, Sherlock.
36 Post contains links NCB : Any decision-making involving a touchdown after the TDZ should be reviewed. PNF should have been screaming "abort, abort, go around" while, depending
37 BlueShamu330s : Suggest you check your facts about the flight in question before coming on here and posting such rubbish. I'll give you a helping hand. Finnair's num
38 EI787 : This thread has run its course. The OP's question has been answered. Thread locked. Thanks, EI787.
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