FlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7493 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5347 times:
I would suggest to change the "title" of your topic into : "AZ Pilot's Unions determined ..." as it seems more and more Pilots and F/A are not supporting anymore the suicidal stubborn position of their Unions.
Flyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5310 times:
In most situations like this, management has done 100x more to harm the airline than the employees ever will. To watch a good company go down due to complete incompetence does a lot to anger even the best employees...
Maybe one day management at companies like this will understand that the employees are valued resources, not the enemy. Until then, these companies will continue to fail...
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 11166 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5310 times:
As someone in a Union, I can sympathize for those struggling and wanting to be treated fairly. However Alitalia has been dying a long death. They've been able to get the company to squeak by and get some of their concessions, however the company as a whole has nothing to offer. You can't really fight for your rights, when a company has nothing to give or offer. Alitalia staff can't hope for the benefits that Lufthansa and British Airways staff get because their company is dying. As a person, you deserve the benefits, but you can only go as far as the company can handle. There are always top performers and bottom performers. Management always wants to pay middle to bottom and everyone always thinks that they are the best and a top performer and deserve to be recognized.
In the end Alitalia will likely go away like Varig. The company will die and someone will buy the name and rights and resurrect it freshly. It will be painful, but will be the only way to keep an Italian flag carrier in the air.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
BlueFlyer From Tuvalu, joined Jan 2006, 4918 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5052 times:
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 2): In most situations like this, management has done 100x more to harm the airline than the employees ever will
The problem is that whatever the unions do that affect the company in retaliation usually hurts the employees more than management. You want management to pay for their misdeeds, leave the company alone, picket their reserved parking spot, their house, their favorite hang-out, their spouse's place of work and their kids' school....
When we unleash the dogs of war we must go where they take us
ComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1060 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4588 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 5): I don't think that is the case here. I think the employees and their representatives (aided and abetted by self-serving politicians) have done most to destroy Alitalia.
The current issue is seniority, which you know is a touchy issue in every airline merger. How is a 777 captain going to be eclipsed by a first officer on a 737 who just started working 2 years ago. In the end it's Airone buying AZ. With no pilots on board the new airline wont fly. AZ pilots have nothing to loose. If AZ goes under other airlines like LH will start flying from Milan and will hire Italian based pilots. It really comes down to CAI's ignorance on the subject.
AZ was damaged mostly by politicians overemphasizing the hub in Rome. When time came to move the staff from Rome to Milan no incentives were in place to get the employees to accept such a move. Instead the then mayor of Rome Veltroni worked with union chiefs to derail the move. If you go back and look at AZ from the time of Craxi to now you'll see that each CEO that was hired to run AZ tried to move AZ to MXP and each time it was derailed by the government. Unlike a lot people here claim that AZ had a hub in Milan, AZ never had a hub in Milan, it always had a hub in Rome AND Milan. What was needed was Milan and NO Rome. But that doesn't work with most politicians in Rome. Craxi was against the privatization of AZ. He thought it would enrich a few government friends. So he came up with the idea of moving AZ to Milan. He commissioned the new MXP project Malpensa 2000. But then he was forced out of politics and the next government simply put a everything on ice. Because in the end effect it was much more convenient for them (the crooks) to have a local hub with a connection to every part of the world. Who cared about Milan and it's financial center. It was always Rome. So it's good that finally the new AZ is privatized and these idiots no longer have any influence on the carrier.
BillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4518 times:
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 2): In most situations like this, management has done 100x more to harm the airline than the employees ever will. To watch a good company go down due to complete incompetence does a lot to anger even the best employees...
It was funny I was sitting on a flight and a passenger told me that airline management was at fault for all the airlines losing money. It is clear that there is no go management anywhere on this planet except for the poster above. He/she could obviously run an airline and make ga-zillions in profit.
As is the case Alitalia was centered in a great market that any airline management team could make barrels of money from.
Of course the employes and unions were all victims of the terrible management teams they have to work for, after all staff of airlines like Alitalia ALWAYS know better than management.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
MillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1387 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 4399 times:
management are paied 100 times more than most employees so yes they should know better and in many cases like most US airlines they dont.
In Alitalias case they have been a disaster.
Most people I know ask for as much as possible when they go in for a salary negotiation. Its up to the manager to set the limits. Alitalias management apparently decided that limits wasnt in their interests.
And the main problem with Alitalia isnt salaries. its the crazy overhead costs. Alitalia has more people overseas, more offices, more property and more expats on its salary list than most other airlines.
And to me, management are the ones that need to take responsibility for the overhead costs, not the employees.
Alitalias flying staff are now scared. They know that change is coming. Change that is likely to affect them in a negative way. They are not keen on seeing some of their perks disappear and they are digging their heals in.
I dont blame them, they live in an environment where they have always been bailed out by the government no matter what.
I am sure they still think they will.
For that attitude I blame politicians of every colour in Italy. They have always given into Alitalia and used it as their own little pet. I would say thast over half the expats on Alitalias payroll got their first employement through connections.
Thats just my feeling after meeting quite a few of them.
I just hope that CAI wont give in and agree to a deal that will make this venture doomed longterm. The last thing italy needs are another fiasco and giving in to these specific union demands and the demands that Alitalias staff shall be superior to Air ones and have better seniority and better pay are a recipe for disaster.