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787 - New Fastener Problem  
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 26501 times:

When will bad stories about the 787 come to an end? I want to see this baby flying!!!

Quote:
Boeing's chances of flying the 787 this year took another hit after the company acknowledged further fastener problems with the first aircraft on the production line.

A spokesperson confirmed the problem, telling ATWOnline that the manufacturer "recently discovered some fasteners on the 787 airplanes in Everett Final Assembly were incorrectly installed and do not conform to specifications. The fasteners themselves are fine."

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=14579


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
106 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineChrisrad From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1069 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 26509 times:



Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
When will bad stories about the 787 come to an end? I want to see this baby flying!!!

It's all so similair to the A380's woes, never seems to end. I don't think in all honesty anyone could have predicted this many problems



Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 26286 times:



Quoting Chrisrad (Reply 1):
It's all so similair to the A380's woes, never seems to end. I don't think in all honesty anyone could have predicted this many problems

 checkmark  I hope they have learned allot about outsourcing for the next project



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineN747PE From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 26105 times:

Hasn't anyone ever heard of Krazy Glue?

User currently offlineChuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 26059 times:

Ultimately, trying to compress a design and manufacture cycle that has traditionally run around 8-10 years from initial design to aircraft onto the market into 5-6 years clearly isn't paying off.

Maybe we should stop kidding ourselves and recognise that we don't yet have the tools to do so?


User currently offlineMarquis From Germany, joined Sep 2005, 274 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 25934 times:

"Please unfasten your fasteners!"  Big grin


Riding the radials...
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5822 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 25862 times:



Quoting Marquis (Reply 5):
"Please unfasten your fasteners!"

Um... I am made uncomfortable by this demand.  blush 

Haha, anyhow, it's at least good news that the fasteners themselves aren't the problem.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 2):
I hope they have learned allot about outsourcing for the next project

While I am very much against outsourcing, I am not convinced that this PARTICULAR problem is related to outsourcing. These could easily be fasteners that were installed in Everett.


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 25767 times:

The other aircraft on the line must also have had some fasteners fitted. If the problem is confined to airframe number 1 it sounds like a legacy of installing incorrect fasteners for the rollout.

The article mentions that less than 3% of the fasteners are incorrectly installed. How many fasteners are there on the aircraft? To re-install the offending ones will other assemblies on the aircraft need to be removed to reach them?


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 25642 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6):
While I am very much against outsourcing, I am not convinced that this PARTICULAR problem is related to outsourcing. These could easily be fasteners that were installed in Everett.

You might be right, but according to the article it says that Boeing are asking the other contractors to check the parts they have in manufacturing. So I am not sure that this is an internal error.

Quoting Art (Reply 7):
To re-install the offending ones will other assemblies on the aircraft need to be removed to reach them?

That is something I am wondering also!



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2286 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 25555 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 7):
The other aircraft on the line must also have had some fasteners fitted. If the problem is confined to airframe number 1 it sounds like a legacy of installing incorrect fasteners for the rollout.

I doubt that it's confined to number 1. The spokesperson said, "some fasteners on the 787 airplanes in Everett Final Assembly." Taken literally, this means that all the 787s at the assembly line in Everett have this problem.

Are there three or four airplanes on the assembly line now? How many fasteners are installed in each airplane? How many is 3 percent of the total number of fasteners for these planes?



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 25471 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 7):
The other aircraft on the line must also have had some fasteners fitted. If the problem is confined to airframe number 1 it sounds like a legacy of installing incorrect fasteners for the rollout.

The problems looks to be in the large subassemblies supplied by subcontracters. some have produced a lot of ship sets already. If the problem surfaced recently (which is likely because Boeing is communicating it now), probably many subassemblies not on the assembly line have also been "infected'.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
Are there three or four airplanes on the assembly line now? How many fasteners are installed in each airplane? How many is 3 percent of the total number of fasteners for these planes?

Thousands. I hope they are not deep into the airframe structure. Disassembly caused a lot of damage after 7-08-07.



User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 25349 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
The spokesperson said, "some fasteners on the 787 airplanes in Everett Final Assembly." Taken literally, this means that all the 787s at the assembly line in Everett have this problem.

Oh dear.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
The problems looks to be in the large subassemblies supplied by subcontracters.

And they only spotted this after starting assembly of the aircraft?


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19711 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 25190 times:



Quoting Chrisrad (Reply 1):

It's all so similair to the A380's woes, never seems to end.

But the A380's actually ended. I flew into SYD this morning and saw SQ's. I've also seen SQ's three times at LHR.

I've never seen a 787 on the stand, let alone in the air.


User currently offlineEllehammer From Denmark, joined Jun 2007, 95 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24950 times:

Heh, I remember watching the 787 unveiling live, thinking that it was actually an airplane they rolled out. Might as well have been a plywood mock-up, given the time it is taking to get it in the air...  Sad

User currently offlineBa1978 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 24693 times:



Quoting Ellehammer (Reply 13):
Might as well have been a plywood mock-up, given the time it is taking to get it in the air...  

LOL, it more or less was a mock-up. The only difference was that it wasn't made of plywood.



There are other ways and there's British Airways
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 24373 times:

A spokesperson confirmed the problem, telling ATWOnline that the manufacturer "recently discovered some fasteners on the 787 airplanes in Everett Final Assembly were incorrectly installed and do not conform to specifications. The fasteners themselves are fine."

The spokesperson added that Boeing "alerted our structural and pre-integration partners to also inspect the units they have in production. Although we are still receiving data, some installation nonconformance has been found. Less than 3% of fasteners installed to date are nonconforming."

It is unclear how the discoveries will affect the 787's first flight schedule. "We will not know the full impact of this effort on our schedule until 787 production resumes and we complete our strike recovery assessment. We are working closely with our partners to rectify the situation and replace the fasteners," the spokesperson said.


Replacing hundreds or thousands of fasteners on the #1 aircraft. If this is truth and the fasteners are not very easy to reach, the first flight now (before the fastener statement) anticipated January 2009, will move further away.

It (very probably) also effects protoypes # 2,3 and 4, so I fear we can also move the flight test schedule to the shredder. Pls tell me I'm wrong  Sad

 crying 


User currently offlinePetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 24271 times:
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You have to remember that Airbus had no problems getting the A380 into the air, the problems with the wiring harnesses came later. So in my mind the B787 woes seem far worse. In the end the A380 problems may have been a blessing is disguise as it allowed a far more mature aircraft to enter service.

Peter
Fan of A and B


User currently offlineTW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 24154 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
How many is 3 percent of the total number of fasteners for these planes?

Thousands. I hope they are not deep into the airframe structure.

Excuse my dumb question but what are "fasteners" (in simple words)? You don't talk about the "rivets", right? just asking because of the photo....



TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
User currently offlinePetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 24086 times:
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Yes the rivets! They are called fastenters!

User currently offlineTW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23999 times:



Quoting Petera380 (Reply 18):
Yes the rivets! They are called fastenters!

thanks a lot! wow, then 3% are really a big number.



TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23739 times:



Quoting TW741 (Reply 19):
thanks a lot! wow, then 3% are really a big number.

Not nearly as big as with other planes. There are many, many fewer on the 787.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23607 times:



Quoting TW741 (Reply 19):
thanks a lot! wow, then 3% are really a big number.

I have a little hope "Less than 3% of fasteners installed to date are nonconforming." is an incorrect statement by the Boeing spokesperson. Hopefully he /she means 3% of all fasteners installed on a limited number of subassemblies that have to be inspected.  crossfingers . Then it very much depends where those assemblies are

Maybe they found out during structural testing. I would not be surprized if those nonconforming fasteners are in there too.



User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23458 times:

I've said this before but....why am I not surprised? It seems that nothing can go right with the program, aside from the huge order book. I really expected more from Boeing and its suppliers, to be honest.

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23325 times:

Dear me - come on Boeing get your act together.

This mess makes the A380 problems look smalltime.

Makes you wonder what other shockers we are in for.

COME ON BOEING!!!



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23322 times:



Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
When will bad stories about the 787 come to an end? I want to see this baby flying!!!

Quote:
Boeing's chances of flying the 787 this year took another hit after the company acknowledged further fastener problems with the first aircraft on the production line.

A spokesperson confirmed the problem, telling ATWOnline that the manufacturer "recently discovered some fasteners on the 787 airplanes in Everett Final Assembly were incorrectly installed and do not conform to specifications. The fasteners themselves are fine."

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story....14579

The good news is that the engineers/mechanics are at least back at work to be able to discover this problem!



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
25 Cloudyapple : Well there are tens of thousands of fasteners on each aeroplane so even 3% of tens of thousands can be... thousands. And you have to inspect every si
26 Post contains links Keesje : Engineers? http://www.boeing.com/2008negotiations/pdf/110308_SPEEA_message_.pdf
27 Francoflier : They weren't. Those aren't either. I believe It just goes to show how complex putting a state of the art jet airliner is nowadays. We've come a long
28 Aztec01 : "Quoting Ellehammer (Reply 13): Might as well have been a plywood mock-up, given the time it is taking to get it in the air.." Yeah, plywood equals "m
29 Post contains links and images Keesje : Yes, disassembly / assembly caused red tape on #1 early 08. On a positive note: there probably is a steep learning curve on composite fuselage repair
30 N14AZ : A "dumb question" from my side as well: what does this mean "do not conform to specifications". Have these fasteners been installed with too much for
31 Keesje : I guess not installed conform installation requirements. Preparation of holes, pressure, temperature, tooling, administration, inspection, non-certif
32 BrianDromey : I agree. The delays hit the A280 a massive blow, but the timing was fortuitous in one way because it allowed Airbus to deliver a much more mature air
33 Pylon101 : O, Gosh! I so much want The Thing starts rolling and taxing on the Boeing Field. And accelerate. And break. And engage spoilers and reversers. Don't a
34 Ikramerica : Boeing programs do not traditionally run 8-10 years. Nor to Airbus's. Boeing has in the past taken 5-7 years, and this program was initially condense
35 SpeedyGonzales : If it breaks, the spoilers and reverser probably won't do much good.
36 PGNCS : I think this is an insightful perspective. While the A-380 problems were tortuous, the aircraft has been doing well in the field overall. I don't kno
37 Rikkus67 : Someone correct me if I am wrong, but IIRC... some of the doors actually were PLYWOOD for the rollout!!
38 Post contains links Keesje : In some cases, the fasteners were installed to incorrect lengths, either longer or shorter than called for in the specifications, she said. As a resu
39 Cloudyapple : " target=_blank>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...er=us So it's nothing to do with any new technology then. We have used rivets for decades on m
40 Keesje : Read carefully "In some cases, the fasteners were installed to incorrect lengths, either longer or shorter than called for in the specifications, she
41 Pianos101 : That's the issue for a few suppliers; workmanship. Some suppliers are worse than others in this regard... There's an issue with that statement. A hig
42 797charter : Makes me wonder if Keesje is right:
43 JoeCanuck : So the fasteners aren't the problem...whomever installed them is...so who is responsible for installing the fasteners?
44 Hypersonic : Please excuse my ignorance... But how come Boeing got it 'so right' with the 777? - Whilst there were teething troubles no doubt, on the whole the dev
45 Post contains links JoeCanuck : It looks like everybody has problems... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-to-engine-flight-test-delays.html While this may technically belong in
46 WINGS : The only current problem with the A400M is with the EuroProp International TP400 engine. Airbus is ready to go as soon as EuroProp get their act toge
47 Post contains links IAD787 : And now this: Flash: 787 won't fly in 2008 http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...lash-boeing-787-wont-fly-in-2.html
48 JoeCanuck : I don't know why they aren't comparable; both are very late and first flight is indefinitely delayed. The fact that they have different specific reas
49 PlaneInsomniac : Also, in the Bloomberg article they said that Boeing expects first delivery for Q1 2010 instead of Q4 2009. Frankly, I do not see the relevance for t
50 Chrisrad : If fact in a way now, you could almost say that Boeing is having more problems than Airbus did. At least Airbus had the basic airframe together from
51 MCIGuy : Maybe it's just me but in the grand universe of 787 issues, this seems kind of minor.
52 Flyboy2001 : You may yet be right but those following this program are already sensitized to the word "delay" and hearing of another one, especially one that's so
53 Tdscanuck : If anyone could have reasonably predicted this, they'd have zero excuse (other than just a really really tiny excuse) for it going as badly as it it.
54 Alessandro : Am I alone thinking this is a smokescreen, that the bleedless system is the root to most problems?
55 EK413 : Considering a totally new manufacturing process has been introduced, I personally can not see Boeing or Airbus getting it right the first time... We
56 Woodsboy : If you look at Boeing in particular, they have usually worked on 5-6 year horizons, not 8-10 year horizons. The 767 was offered for orders in 1978, r
57 Zeke : I seem to recall they had about a 2 year break in the 777 development around 2000/2002, some others around here will be able to help out on the detai
58 Tdscanuck : Well, I doubt that you're completely alone, but you're the first one I've seen voice it. What's the basis for the idea? Bleedless is pretty simple (i
59 Astuteman : Quite insightful IMO. Airbus managed to screw up right in the middle of the biggest order-fest in history. The down-turn might just give Boeing a bit
60 Art : With an order backlog stretching 10 years into the future I don't see how a downturn in demand helps Boeing. Apart from cancellations with no compens
61 Keesje : I must say I truly hoped I had it all wrong , even promised beer to Boeing folks next Paris Airshow etc..
62 Post contains links AndyEastMids : Indeed it was - the FlightGlobal article at http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...lash-boeing-787-wont-fly-in-2.html specifically says that the prob
63 Slz396 : So this problem has been discovered quite some time ago then? Then how come it was only communicated recently? Hasn't Boeing learnd anything at all f
64 Dynamicsguy : I think you'll find that the 777 had been in service for a few years by then.
65 Art : From the flightglobal blog: Of those 3% of fasteners, many are either too short or too long. This leads to small gaps beneath the head of the fastener
66 Dynamicsguy : So this problem has been discovered quite some time ago then? Then how come it was only communicated recently? Hasn't Boeing learnd anything at all f
67 Dynamicsguy : Perhaps the wrong fasteners were called out in the engineering. Maybe the production planners who write instructions for the operators misinterpreted
68 Art : I can understand how it took so long to come to light if that is the case since the documentation would record the right fastener having been used in
69 Luv2cattlecall : How does that test work? As in..what exactly do they do? Freudian slip I hope not! If that were the case, they can expect hell from buyers, and more
70 AirNZ : It's nowhere near similar. Sorry, but I would respectfully disagree. The fact that both are late/delayed certainly does not make them comparable in a
71 JoeCanuck : In that case, your opinion as to my motivation would be inaccurate. I have no stake in Boeing or Airbus and fly regularly on both. Their successes or
72 Cloudyapple : Exactly. Even IKEA flat packs come with installation manuals you have to follow. That's just to build a Billy bookcase.
73 Areopagus : Maybe the strain gauges and acoustic sensors revealed unexpected slippages or strain concentrations, for which they had to find explanations, leading
74 474218 : Because of the allowable tolerance build up, engineering drawings (blueprints) do not normally call out a fasteners (rivet/screw/bolt/hi-loc/hi-tigue
75 Pygmalion : or maybe someone just noticed something.... it happens. I do think this is overblown. In one of the articles the Boeing spokesperson said the problem
76 Art : Interesting. Thanks for the info. Unfortunately - to me - it points to the problem arising from defective workmanship. Question is: by whom? I would
77 Pianos101 : That is absolutely untrue. For general rivets that are ordered in bulk, that is true. For all other fasteners (blind rivets, bolts, hi-loks, screws,
78 Tdscanuck : They only started testing the static frame just before the strike...that wasn't very long ago, and I imagine testing came to a screeching halt during
79 474218 : If Boeing is attempting to do as you say I can see how the wrong fasteners got installed. If the fasteners required by the engineering drawing were i
80 Pianos101 : I think you answered your own question.... If the engineering called out the wrong grip length, then the engineering is wrong... But i don't know if
81 474218 : If there hi-tigue (hi-loc) type pins and they are too long the collar can bottom out on the pin shank, snapping the drive portion, before the seats c
82 Post contains links IAD787 : Just wrapped up a three day investigation on the fastener issue. A lot of interesting stuff came up: - The problem was discovered on the engine pylons
83 Ikramerica : And as they say on Futurama: "those Swedes sure do know how to include almost everything you need." So does this mean that all the static tests need
84 Barbarian : That report is actually quite shocking and points to a complete failure in either Boeing or Boeing's suppliers to carry out the basic's of good assemb
85 Amicus : I totally agree with Barbarian, this is basic stuff, indeed very basic stuff. It is aridiculous situation and clearly a bunch of basic training was no
86 IAD787 : Nope, because Boeing says even with a potential structural issue the aircraft still passed the tests. So, they say its even stronger than it needs to
87 Tdscanuck : It's probably not a coincidence that this occurred on a program with a huge influx of people new to aerospace manufacturing. That's not an indictment
88 Pianos101 : Did Boeing hire a lot of "outsiders" on the production side? I know that on the engineering-side a lot of people were shifted around and that's what
89 Ruscoe : Thanks for the info. Can I suggest an in depth analysis of what went wrong at Boeing management level to account for this and other "problems" at Boe
90 MCIGuy : After reading Jon's new article I'm beginning to think this is more serious than I originally though. Might we see first flight pushed out to next sum
91 Overcast : I've got one question regarding the continuing rework on ZA001, At what point does the repairs and reworks get to the point that Boeing would be bette
92 474218 : Never. None of the problems Boeing has experienced with 787 have been major. However, they have had a very high number of small problems that always
93 Tdscanuck : I don't know where everyone came from, but they opened the 787 line without dropping the rate on the 747, 767, or 777 lines and those people had to c
94 Ikramerica : If that's the case, and they can trim out the fat in the 787-9, that plane will turn out to be a real winner. And the 787-8, I assume, can be "improv
95 Pianos101 : L/N 1 will definitely be finished and will fly. However, as time goes on and little "fixes" become more common, configuration control on that aircraf
96 Tdscanuck : Catastrophic failure *of that fastener*. Fastened joints in aerospace are massively redundant (mostly for fatigue reasons) so the failure of 3% of th
97 ScrubbsYWG : seriously? not removing burrs? chamfers not being specified? I've always looked up to boeing as an engineering company, but these seem like basic task
98 474218 : Using a fastener that is too short leaves "threads in bearing". Meaning that some of the threads are actually inside the drilled hole. The threaded p
99 AirNZ : What spin and sorry, but you're seriously joking, right? Whilst we haven't heard of any catastrophic issues, are you seriously saying none of the pro
100 WingedMigrator : Sorry, but that just doesn't sound like something you'd want to tell a customer whose airplanes you will deliver 20 months late. I sure hope not... t
101 Pianos101 : Yes. I meant that one specific aircraft, compared to how it was "supposed" to be put together. It's not a bad thing, just a larger trail of how it wa
102 FrmrCAPCADET : Just a note - these fasteners bear the same relationship to rivets as a modern window glass does to an 18th century window. Think 'system' for joining
103 Revelation : Seemed to take a long time for this basic fact to come out. Hmm.. seems I've heard this from somewhere else - could it have been the IAM website? Bec
104 Post contains links Tdscanuck : More than you ever wanted to know about Hi-lok fasteners. These aren't the only kind, but their among the most common in aerospace: http://www.alcoa.
105 Post contains links 474218 : While I don't know the exact fastener they are using of the 787 I an sure it is a vairation of the Hi-Lok. Go to: http://www.hi-shear.com then click
106 FrmrCAPCADET : Td, 47..thanks, read both references. I see now that the very complex part is the automated 'nut', keeping the 'bolt' from spinning and breaking off a
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