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Embraer Considers Jet>120 Seats, Talks To Airbus  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 6166 times:


"Whether we should develop a larger plane, alone or with partners, is something that we will have to decide," Antonio Luiz Pizarro Manso, Embraer's chief financial officer, said on a conference call.

"Right now, we think the market is well supplied by the existing models, the (Boeing) 737 and the (Airbus) A320," he added. "So our strategy is to wait a bit, especially to see what kind of engine can be developed for such a project."

In a news conference in Sao Paulo on Monday, Airbus Chief Executive Thomas Enders said that the European manufacturer was open to developing a plane with Embraer in the future. Enders was scheduled to visit Embraer's main factory in Sao Jose dos Campos on Tuesday.

Asked about a potential partnership with Airbus, Pizarro Manso said Embraer is always open to new ideas.
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN0443971420081104

I think it would be a smart strategy not to go head to head with Airbus and Boeing. And that doesn't count for Embraer only. Market forces might push Bombardier to chicago too.

Having a cockpit similar to next generation Airbus and Boeing narrowbodies sounds like a sales tool. Having access to new propulsion technology too. It would enable Airbus (or Boeing) to develop more optimized aircraft for e.g. 200 (170-230) seats, without heavy niche aircraft like B737-600 and A318 no one wants.

Cooperation like this doesn't come totally unexpected IMO.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/3513052

8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5771 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 5645 times:



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Asked about a potential partnership with Airbus, Pizarro Manso said Embraer is always open to new ideas.

Um, haven't the two companies been closely tied together in the past? I want to say that Airbus even supplied some R&D cash to Embraer...

If Embraer wants to sit and wait, fine let them... The C-series will take off and sweep the market. It'll be a role reversal. Bombardier couldn't get it together when Embraer did the E170/175/190/195, and now it's the other way around!


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5142 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
If Embraer wants to sit and wait, fine let them... The C-series will take off and sweep the market. It'll be a role reversal. Bombardier couldn't get it together when Embraer did the E170/175/190/195, and now it's the other way around!

The E-170/190 jet family backlog accumulated a total of 865 firm orders and 813 options. Embraer should have cash flown, they still have low labor rates. Getting technology & Marketing sales from Airbus seems a smart strategy.

I think big regionals like the Cseries, Superjet and this one will push the smaller 737's and A320 out of the <160 seats < 1200nm segment, which is a big segment (low cost operators etc.) . It seems impossible to develop an aircraft design that is good doing 130 seat at a one hour flights but also 200 seats on 5 hour flights with cargo. Airlines are no longer willing to use overweight heavy narrowbodies for high frequency short flights.

Their seems to be a rather big niche (or gab) 100-160 seats short range. Some form of prop / open rotor seems most economical. Did some low tech/risk idea a while ago:
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...s/turbolinermai17.jpg?t=1210982850


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30910 posts, RR: 87
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4936 times:
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I do think that Boeing and Airbus trying to develop two families of narrowbodies is unlikely. As we saw with the Japanese-market 747s and the 787-3 and may be seeing with the "A350 Regional", if it launches, trying to tailor a plane to meet two wildly different markets is very difficult.

Boeing has been able to do it with the 767 and 777, but both families have specific weaknesses (the 767 in the B market and the 777 in the A market) compared to the more "customized" Airbus A330 which has allowed the A330 to make very strong gains in both markets (the A332 in B and the A333 in A).

As such, I would be surprised - and a bit dismayed - if either offered a model with less then 150-seats and 2500nm range. But I would not be surprised if they decided to try and work together with one of the RJ makers to offer as much commonality as possible to encourage airlines to "dual source" from each.

As for who Boeing would link-up with, I have to believe Mitsubishi would be the most logical choice.


User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4830 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
If Embraer wants to sit and wait, fine let them... The C-series will take off and sweep the market. It'll be a role reversal. Bombardier couldn't get it together when Embraer did the E170/175/190/195, and now it's the other way around!

I believe Embraer have not been just sitting waiting for the C-series to happen, according to a source it is believed that a concept exists for a larger E jet and it wont be a simple streatch of the E195, rather a new design. Embraer design teams have been tied up with the new exec jets and the new military transport jet, though i am told that concepts are in existence though no one will admit anything in public.

The rumours about a tie up with Airbus to do a joint venture has been in the airwaves for over a year now. Enders visit is not just to keep an eye on EADS investment, I think more is being discussed.


User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4345 times:

Well blow me down if Embraer haven't gone and given a public denial 05/11/2008 about tie ups and a larger aircraft, this is from the Embraer website (fair use)

Embraer publicly clarifies that, at the present time, it is not seeking to associate with any other aircraft manufacturer in the world, neither does it have a project for developing large airplanes.

 Cool Draw the curtains quick, someone has rumbled us !!!!!  Cool


User currently offlineMD80Nut From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 922 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4203 times:

I don't think Emraer needs to tie up with anybody to develop and market something larger to compete with the A320 or 737 families. They have more than enough technical expertise, and with a large and growing base of operators for their regional jets, enough airlines know they can build fine aircraft.

The key in my opinion will be timing. Years down the road when the airlines start to look for something new in the narrow body market to replace their aging A320s and 737 NGs, Embraer would be wise to position themselves to offer an option to compete with the Big Two. I believe they can design a very competitive aircraft that will win a nice share of the market.

Embraer is well run and has shown they can produce the right size aircraft to meet demand. I believe they will step up and become a force in the 120 to 180 passenger aircraft segment of the market. Airbus and Boeing, objects in your rear view miror may be closer than they appear!  cool 

Cheers, Ralph



Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4136 times:



Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 6):
don't think Emraer needs to tie up with anybody to develop and market something larger to compete with the A320 or 737 families.

What Embraer did was partner with the best OEMs and research institutes in the world to develop their Embraer regionals. Building up the R&D to develop a 21st century 180 seater seems an very high long term investment. They will probably continue their succesfull development strategy with the next generation by teaming up.



Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 5):
Embraer publicly clarifies that, at the present time, it is not seeking to associate with any other aircraft manufacturer in the world, neither does it have a project for developing large airplanes.

Obviously they haven't choosen yet.


User currently offlineMD80Nut From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 922 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4022 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
What Embraer did was partner with the best OEMs and research institutes in the world to develop their Embraer regionals. Building up the R&D to develop a 21st century 180 seater seems an very high long term investment. They will probably continue their succesfull development strategy with the next generation by teaming up.

Good points. But building up the R & D for a 21st Century 120-180 seater family, while a very long term investment, has the potential to pay off very big for Embraer. I'm confident they can do it. Though I agree it's more likely they will team up with someone to help share development costs and help with ideas, but I believe it doesn't have to be Airbus or Boeing.



Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
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