IAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 501 posts, RR: 45 Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 18296 times:
Just got off the phone with Boeing. The company say that 787 will not fly by the close of this year. No new timeline was available and they are conducting a full assessment of the program currently. In addition, there's no timeline for the completion of the assessment.
I believe this is actually the fifth slip in first flight, and will be the fourth slip in EIS. The September 2007 slip in the first flight date compressed the entire flight test schedule with no change in EIS.
This is a summary of the delays, as of last April (prior to power-on).
I will update this chart after Boeing completes their assessment and provides a revised schedule.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 28576 posts, RR: 84 Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 17753 times:
I no longer care and going forward I will now ignore anything relating to the 787. I know she will fly and I know she will be phenomenally successful, so in the end, being successful is the best revenge.
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10055 posts, RR: 11 Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 17712 times:
The 787 is technologically and production-wise the most ambitious civil airliner since the days of Adam and Eve, oops, I meant the 747 and Concorde. It doesn´t surprise that there is trouble all over. What I do not understand is the foolish, even childish confidence Boeing had until about 1 year ago. Almost all major hightech programs all over the world are delayed. Name one that is on time. There is always a big problem not anticipated when you are designing a thing made of a million screws and a thousand computers.
To regain confidence now Boeing now should not make the mistake to withdraw staff from the 748 to help the 787. Then there will be again a program under delay, damaging Boeings image even further.
Btw, heard the news from Airbus regarding the 400M military freighter? Same story, neverending delays. And that one is not that much new ground like the 787.
Sebjacques92 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 138 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 17556 times:
Its a shame about the 787 but i think we all knew that with Boeings turbulent past few months it was almost certain. I just hope Boeing don't end up with the poor reputation that Airbus recieved with the A380. Yet on the plus side the A380 turned out great so i can only hope the 787 will be also.
There will always be trouble with the new technology that is used for the first time and unfortunatly for Boieng it hasn't turned out quite as planned, but as we have seen with Airbus things will get better..........i hope
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6500 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 17500 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 11): What I do not understand is the foolish, even childish confidence Boeing had until about 1 year ago.
I'll take a stab at this one.
1. We - Boeing - want to build this new a/c, also want to save money doing it, so lets out-source as much as we can to professional bodies who are already doing the work, this will reduce our overhead and increase our profit margins, will also insulate us from union activities and set the trend for the next union agreement scheduled in 2008. We do not intened to offer this product at any savings to the purchaser, this is for profit and efficiency only.
2. Board agrees and away we go.
3. Problems are found during our cursory inspections, we did not believe that we had to schedule detail inspections as we do at our own plants with our own workers, the out-sourced vendors is supposed to take care of these things.
4. Now trying to figure out how to correct / put pressure / force vendor to do the work to our requirements even though we do not actually control their work force, etc. etc. ect.
5. Pride now rears its ugly head, delays are now begining to add up, but if we can roll out on time, PR will delay and soothe some of the bad feelings, whether the a/c is fit to roll out or even fly is immaterial.
I did the first 5, feel free to re-arrange and add on.
It should not make any difference how difficult, complex or detailed this project is, this was screwed up by management pure and simply, the computers did not fail, new equations and or laws of physics did not have to be developed, problem is that as a people in society we are raised to look at those in charge as being larger than life, better than the rest of us and smarter to boot, so it becomes real difficult to look at those in charge and say that they busted this project wide open, after all, we need to have confidence in their ability to deliver a successul finished product. Simple as it may sound, as much innovation and new methods of production were introduced during our history before the computers, CAD designs existed, we have to try and figure out what it is that we lost to the computers, because we are now accepting mediocraity as a result, - may be a bit harsh.
I'll add a potential explanation: lack of experience.
Boeing just builds too few all-new aircraft, and when they finally got around to launching a new aircraft project, 14 years after their previous one, they introduced too many innovations at once and underestimated the challenge that was ahead.
Boeing had only had 2 all-new projects in the 30 years before the launch of the 787, namely the 757/767 in 1978 and the 777 in 1990.
By contrast, Airbus has launched 4 all-new projects in just 23 years: the A320 in 1983, the A330/340 in 1987, the A380 in 2000, and the A350XWB in 2006.
Boeing obviously needs more practice
The schedules for the 787 and A350 are now little more than 3 years apart, btw.
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4286 posts, RR: 37 Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 16986 times:
Quoting Wolbo (Reply 10): Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 9):
Can it be a coincidence that all of these facts are published on a day dominated by bigger news?
Could be but it smells like a classic p.r. example of hiding bad news behind a big event.
Well, everybody involved in the industry will pick this up, as will Wall Street. If it is not today, it will be tomorrow! So maybe it is PR, but maybe it's not. In the end it does not make any difference!
It is just very disappointing to see another delay for this so promising plane. It will cost Boeing way more then anticipated, but I am sure in the end they will get it right! And it will be a fantastic plane for the many years of service to come!
On the other hand, just as the A380 turned out to be exceptionally good, I presume the A350-XWB will also be a phenominal plane!
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10055 posts, RR: 11 Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 16729 times:
Quoting Par13del (Reply 13): Quoting NA (Reply 11):
What I do not understand is the foolish, even childish confidence Boeing had until about 1 year ago.
I'll take a stab at this one.
Thank you. I also think its management failure far ahead of everything else. The typical overconfidence of greedy overpaid shareholders slaves, the type of character which also caused our current financial crisis.
AvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2445 posts, RR: 9 Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 16603 times:
Quoting Salukipilot (Reply 19): bet it wont fly until 2Q 2009 and even that's optimistic at this point. MGMT needs to get this strike over with.
The strike's over, didn't you read? But they sure didn't need this to put a further dent in their already dented credibility. Let's face it; they shouldn't have done the technology leap along with the avant garde outsourced supply chain in the same program. That was too much simultaneous challenge to manage properly and now Boeing is paying the price for its own management's myopia. No doubt this gave IAM lots of leverage in the settlement. Once again, corporate arrogance has put Boeing in a corner; hopefully, the painful lessons of this unsavory experience will be lasting ones.
SparkingWave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 668 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16237 times:
Quoting AvObserver (Reply 23): Once again, corporate arrogance has put Boeing in a corner; hopefully, the painful lessons of this unsavory experience will be lasting ones.
Corporate arrogance is usually bad, but it's what also brought Boeing to be so ambitious in the first place. By dealing with all these problems now, Boeing will be getting valuable experience in weighing the true benefits of outsourcing on future projects.
After the A380 delays, we all know now that airlines will still hold on to their orders and will wait for new technology. And Airbus and Boeing don't need to worry about upset a.nutters either.
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 81 Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16344 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2): nobody on this forum ever believed anyhow that the 787 would take off this year..
That's not true. Up until the strike, I still believed it would fly this year, and I'm definitely not the only one. Given the fastener issue they've just disclosed, it looks like it wouldn't have flown this year even without the strike, but I don't think anyone here saw the (second) fastener issue coming...if they did, they kept remarkably quiet about it.
Quoting Davescj (Reply 5): Boeing is going to be taking serious hits in credibility and finances as promised aircraft don't get delivered.
I'm not sure it can get much worse. After slide #3, who was still taking them seriously?
Quoting Par13del (Reply 13): We do not intened to offer this product at any savings to the purchaser, this is for profit and efficiency only.
Except they did offer a savings to the purchaser...a big one. Compared to what it can do, the 787 is *far* cheaper than a 767.
25 Patches: Ok all you know it all poindexter eggheads! How many delays did the 747 have? Did it take over 3 years before her maiden flight? What about the 757-76
26 ChrisNH: Way to win over the rank-and-file...blame them! The Sonic Cruiser would be in service by now.
27 Rigo: Well as many posts already pointed out, it was not unexpected. It still makes me wonder, what's happening to the industry? Airbus made fools of themse
28 Flighty: Bingo. So pinning the 787 delay on the IAM is just another in Boeing's extended length record of documented, proven corporate lies about the 787 prog
29 Zeke: from your article "This latest delay is the fifth slip for the first flight of Dreamliner One since September 2007, and suggests the event could occu
30 RedChili: From Flightblogger: Using these numbers, 3 percent means that we're talking about around 11,000 fasteners per airplane. And there are six of them in E