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Alitalia In Administration  
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7949 times:

Seriously, it's true.

You heard it first from the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7711353.stm

Quote:

First to succumb were the airlines with innovative new business models, such as Silverjet with its mission to undercut the major airlines in the battle for business passengers.

Small operators like Futura, Sterling, Maxjet, Oasis and EOS have also gone.

The collapse of XL was a huge shock to the UK charter airline market.

Even a flag-carrier, Alitalia, is in administration



21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7949 times:



Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
Seriously, it's true.

You heard it first from the BBC.

I don't quite understand. I think Alitalia appointed administrators in July.


User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 313 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7949 times:

Alitalia is not out of business...which is what the last post led me to think. Alitalia is under administration. That is the first step in discharging the debt so that CAI can complete the purchase of Alitalia. The debt IIRC is to be discharged. Can somebody else confirm this?

User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4360 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7949 times:

Do you think big news like Alitalia stopping operations would be mentioned on the BBC website like this in a footnote anecdote?
Basically it's the same story for Italy, they seem on the brink of bankruptcy for at least 5 years now but the Italian government will never let them actually go bankrupt and continuously pump tax payers money into it, everyday they continue to fly against the believe of many, maybe if things get too bad they'll do some creditor evading trick like starting the same airline with a slightly different name.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6538 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7949 times:



Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
Seriously, it's true.

You heard it first from the BBC.

Glom, I believe you are overreacting to a simple statement that means nothing.


User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 313 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7949 times:

Ummm...There is already a binding offer on the table from CAI. This is nothing more than going through the legal channels to have the debt discharged as I said before. This has been discussed many times here and is nothing new. CAI is buying Alitalia and they are not going away...end of story.

User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7949 times:



Quoting Rookinla (Reply 5):
There is already a binding offer on the table from CAI. This is nothing more than going through the legal channels to have the debt discharged as I said before. This has been discussed many times here and is nothing new. CAI is buying Alitalia and they are not going away...end of story.

Exactly.

Alitalia technically is in "extraordinary administration", it has a commissioner appointed by the government to liquidate the company.


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7949 times:



Quoting Rookinla (Reply 5):
CAI is buying Alitalia and they are not going away...end of story.

If I remember CAI has made a binding offer to the administrator. They did it without signing a deal with all the unions concerned. I hope things work out but I won't be too surprised if the unsigned unions backtrack to wanting things to be more like they were at Alitalia. It's going to be an interesting twist to the story if that happens.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7280 times:

I think the present situation is that the unions, or some of them, want to transfer their featherbedding to the new company.

That would be the worst mistake the new owners could possibly make, It is their money, OK, but at the end of the day the European taxpayers all suffer because Berlusconi will not give a damn and pour as much money into the corpse as needed.

This is a never ending story until someone really stops them or takes the operating licence from them, but even that won't happen because whoever dares doing that will be out of a job the next moment.

Meanwhile, properous carrier build up alternatives and continue to take business away from AZ.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7280 times:



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
Basically it's the same story for Italy, they seem on the brink of bankruptcy for at least 5 years now but the Italian government will never let them actually go bankrupt and continuously pump tax payers money into it, everyday they continue to fly against the believe of many, maybe if things get too bad they'll do some creditor evading trick like starting the same airline with a slightly different name.

It is illegal according to EU competition law for governments to give subsidies to airlines..

If the EU works properly (which it doesn't) the Italian government will be given a fine for breaking the rules...

But it won't happen.. the EU is so corrupt.



Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
User currently offlineCaymanair From Cayman Islands, joined Apr 2004, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7280 times:

What sense is there is making government subsidies to a company illegal? That Alitalia is an important part of the Italian economy is certainly a valid argument, and it would probably be unwise if the Italian government let it fail outright. If BA, AF, or LH were about to collapse I would expect their respective government to do everything possible to prop them up. I would say most of the EUs competition laws are very useful, but the national interest (and by extension European interests) are far more important.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 9):
If the EU works properly (which it doesn't) the Italian government will be given a fine for breaking the rules...

But it won't happen.. the EU is so corrupt.

I would hardly say the EU doesn't work and its one of the last structures I would ever describe as corrupt... why would you think that?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7282 times:



Quoting Caymanair (Reply 10):
What sense is there is making government subsidies to a company illegal? That Alitalia is an important part of the Italian economy is certainly a valid argument, and

Because the European Statute says so and that was ratified by all member states, it is part of each countries legal base.

Alitalia can be replaced by one or more financially solid carriers in little time, there will be nbo void harming the local economy. Any European carrier can establish flights in the European Aviation zone instantly and carriers like LH are already establishing corporations in Italy so that thzey can apply for third country rights.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7280 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 4):
Glom, I believe you are overreacting to a simple statement that means nothing.

I was being ironic. I thought the BBC's highlighting of Alitalia's plight as though it exemplified the currents woes was a bit silly given we've known for ages that Alitalia is a basket case.


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7282 times:



Quoting Caymanair (Reply 10):
I would hardly say the EU doesn't work and its one of the last structures I would ever describe as corrupt... why would you think that?

Try working there... people are more obsessed with their huge salaries and totally OTT benefit packages than policy making.. sad but true...

Well i hope the Italian government haven't been pumping illegal money into the airline..

I just hope the takeover goes through quickly and smoothly..



Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
User currently offlineOa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27342 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7281 times:



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 13):
Try working there... people are more obsessed with their huge salaries and totally OTT benefit packages than policy making.. sad but true...

Very true  checkmark   checkmark 


User currently offlineBeagleboys From Italy, joined Jun 2006, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7281 times:

Ok Alitalia took money from gov and we all blame her for that... but i want you just to know that in italy (but i think also outside) a lot of airline takes a lot of money to keep their routes open... Ryanair (that sued AZ for taking govt aid) takes money from the italian govt to fly routes inside of italy, open new bases and a lot of other things... GJ keeps open the JFK-NAP because the Regione Campania pays them to do so(same for PMO-JFK, BLQ-JFK etc..), Meridiana, AirOne and Easyjet takes money to keep open the routes between the continent and CAG(also AZ). AZ took money to keep open all of his route because the country will FAIL if AZ stop to do these! Because AZ used to keep open routes that wasn't high revenue but was essential for the country life...


Nervous? Yes. First Times? No, I've been nervous lots of times. -Airplane!
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2768 times:



Quoting Caymanair (Reply 10):
That Alitalia is an important part of the Italian economy is certainly a valid argument, and it would probably be unwise if the Italian government let it fail outright. If BA, AF, or LH were about to collapse I would expect their respective government to do everything possible to prop them up.

Oh yeah. Germany, the UK and France all have enough weight inside the EU to go around the law, even if the others get upset. Good point, AF, BA and LH all are healthy therefore their respective countries complain about Italy for now, but if they ever have to deal with a chaos à-la AZ at home, expect their position to change...

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 10):
I would say most of the EUs competition laws are very useful, but the national interest (and by extension European interests) are far more important.



Quoting Caymanair (Reply 10):
What sense is there is making government subsidies to a company illegal?

The sense is that the EU is nowadays primarily meant to be a deregulated free market, and that the shareholders' interests dominate over the citizen's interests, even if this is somewhat moving away from the EU initial purposes back in the 50's. One of the many reasons why the constitution was massively rejected by the voters of France and the Netherlands.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2404 times:

BA just made a proposal for a commercial partnership with AZ but without an equity stake into the NewCo....

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/157c7cda-a...e-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1


User currently offlineVictrola From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 537 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2164 times:



Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 6):
Alitalia technically is in "extraordinary administration", it has a commissioner appointed by the government to liquidate the company.

Rumour has it that they will soon be put under"Double Secret Administration" Big grin


User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2142 times:

This thread is much a do about nothing.

Alitalia being in "administration" is not news. The Italian government is in the process of turning the airline over to CAI. What specific details that have to happen in order for that to occur I am not certain; however, I do know that one or two of the unions are not on board quite yet (pilots and f/a's...so what else is new?), but they will be. The alternative is no job.

The goal is that CAI will take over the airline, restructure it, properly capitalize it and position it correctly within an alliance to take advantage of all the benefits of being a part of an alliance while providing the Italian people with a viable domestic and international air transport system, that is competitive with others in the market.

Of course, will this happen this way? Who knows. Nothing happens easily in Italy. That's the bad news. The good news is that it almost always works out....I've come to expect this from Italians and in the cases so far in which I have personally been involved (running AZ in SFO for example), it really does work out.

Let's just wait and see...

Ciao baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1939 times:



Quoting Baw716 (Reply 19):
This thread is much a do about nothing.

It is. It's about the BBC being idiots.


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1889 times:



Quoting Baw716 (Reply 19):
The goal is that CAI will take over the airline, restructure it, properly capitalize it

I think they have done things in the wrong order. More or less the correct order IMO should be:

1 line up capital to recapitalise
2 plan restructuring
3 secure support from ALL parties for the plan
4 take over the airline and recapitalise

As far as I can see CAI's order has turned out to be:

1 line up capital to recapitalise
2 plan restructuring
3 take over the airline and recapitalise
4 secure support from ALL parties for the plan

Now that CAI has committed to recapitalising the business what incentive is there for the parties that do not support the restructuring to co-operate? None, as far as I can see.


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