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The Future Of The NWA Freighter Operation?  
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4067 posts, RR: 19
Posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10621 times:

Interested in peoples thoughts / knowledge on this, I think staying in the freighter business is an excellent long term strategy , possibilities of converting 744's to BCF long term perhaps ?

With Dal in the drivers seat now who know's ?


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
121 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10598 times:

My sources say that DL hates the freighter operation and wants it gone ASAP

User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4067 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10582 times:

That would not surprise me but I think it would be a great mistake.


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9958 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10432 times:



Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 1):
My sources say that DL hates the freighter operation and wants it gone ASAP

My sources say they want to keep the freighter operation for the forseeable future and have the NW folks run it. BTW, my source is now the CEO of NW.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5961 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10389 times:
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Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 1):
My sources say that DL hates the freighter operation and wants it gone ASAP

If it makes money I would bet it will stay. DL, like any business, wants to make money. If it makes money it will stay regardless of what some people at DL think of it.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineCcrlR From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2223 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10324 times:
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Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 1):
My sources say that DL hates the freighter operation and wants it gone ASAP

Some of NW's revenue is in freight. Even if it is in the cargo hold of a pax aircraft, it is a way to generate revenue. If DL wants to eliminate it, then they may make a big mistake. It's like if they took all of their cargo ops out of several destinations that NWA and DL both fly passenger and fly pax, then it would not be as profitable.



"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10301 times:



Quoting CcrlR (Reply 5):
Some of NW's revenue is in freight. Even if it is in the cargo hold of a pax aircraft, it is a way to generate revenue. If DL wants to eliminate it, then they may make a big mistake. It's like if they took all of their cargo ops out of several destinations that NWA and DL both fly passenger and fly pax, then it would not be as profitable.

Delta wouldn't drop Delta Cargo. (aka Cargo on PAX planes)
What could be dropped is the 747Fs.
I think as long as fuel stays low they will keep the 74Fs. If fuel goes up again then they will look for a replacement or dropping that side of Cargo and just move to PAX plane Cargo.



yep.
User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3696 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10186 times:
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Quoting Mayor (Reply 3):
My sources say they want to keep the freighter operation for the forseeable future and have the NW folks run it

I would imagine it will be scaled down quite a bit, if it is allowed to continue to exist. They did lose their biggest customer by far (DHL) after all...



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9958 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9533 times:



Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 7):

This is the first time that I can remember a CEO of DL that actually understood cargo and promoted it. That bodes well for the continuation of the freighter operation. As for NW losing the DLH account, well, the cargo sales reps will just have to work harder to replace them as a customer, won't they?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineAirbuske From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9499 times:

All freighters will be retired at their next L Check.

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6344 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9485 times:



Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 1):
My sources say that DL hates the freighter operation and wants it gone ASAP

I would say your sources had better take up a new hobby. The CEO of DL says otherwise.


User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9278 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 10):
I would say your sources had better take up a new hobby. The CEO of DL says otherwise.

Well, we'll see what happens. I'm not saying they will be gone in '09...but unless things improve....don't expect to see them past '10. The loss of the DHL contract, as others have mentioned, was a big blow, and DL wants to use NRT slots for PAX rather than freight.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10360 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9132 times:



Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 1):
My sources say that DL hates the freighter operation and wants it gone ASAP

Thats easy to say if you have no clue of it.
NWA Cargo has produced good revenue in the past, so it would be a mistake to close it down just because you don´t like it. The main problem is the old fleet. There are 5 or so decently "new" 742Fs in its fleet (from the late 80s), but the rest is old, some aircraft are retired due to age already. NWA, or soon, Delta Cargo, could be a good customer for 10 or so 744BCFs, if not 748Fs. The first 10-strong batch of NWA 744s (N661US-N670US) is at an age between 18-20 years, it has to be decided very soon if they shoud be converted or not. Otherwise their mileage will be too high to make it economically reasonable. I guess they have clocked around 85000 flight hours by now. Thats young enough to fly Cargo for 10 years still, but hardly more than 5 years flying pax.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10360 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9095 times:



Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 11):
The loss of the DHL contract, as others have mentioned, was a big blow, and DL wants to use NRT slots for PAX rather than freight.

The first is adressed by retiring the oldest freighters without replacement, which is happening already. The Narita slots issue can be adressed by only or mostly operating VLAs like 744s, or in the future, 748Is or A388s, and withdrawing the midsized A330s or 777s. Not to mention that operating new VLAs would bring in better revenue due to lower costs per pax.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8561 times:



Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 11):
and DL wants to use NRT slots for PAX rather than freight.

Ugh. This wont work. If they drop the 74Fs then they will likely sell these slots. These slots have very very bad times for any PAX opps. this is why they use them for Cargo. It's not a reason to drop cargo inless FX or someone is already asking to buy the slots.



yep.
User currently offlinePapatango From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8451 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 14):

What exactly are the times for these slots?


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8430 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 3):
My sources say they want to keep the freighter operation for the forseeable future and have the NW folks run it. BTW, my source is now the CEO of NW.

THAT MAKES EVERY KIND OF GOOD SENSE!



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8395 times:

If NW Cargo is a good deal and age of the freighters is a concern, wouldn't it pay to start considering some 777Fs or 748Fs in the near future? Would Delta consider the A330F over the 777F if the price and delivery positions are right?


Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineSyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2015 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8025 times:
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Quoting Mayor (Reply 8):
This is the first time that I can remember a CEO of DL that actually understood cargo and promoted it.

I agree, I think it certainly helps NW's case that Richard was once their CEO as well, so he understands many of the operations behind NW.

-Charlie


User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7971 times:



Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 11):
and DL wants to use NRT slots for PAX rather than freight

The slots are interchangeable cargo and passenger? Not bad.

M


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9958 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7955 times:



Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 19):
The slots are interchangeable cargo and passenger? Not bad.

Only if you want to arrive at NRT at 0100 or 0200.  Wink



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4067 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7880 times:

What is an 'L' check ?


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7743 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 20):
Only if you want to arrive at NRT at 0100 or 0200.

I figured there was a catch. Thanks.

M


User currently offlineGECMD11 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7644 times:



Quoting Max Q (Reply 21):


What is an 'L' check ?

was thinking the same??? is it anything like a D check for heavy MX ?


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1647 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7416 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 8):
This is the first time that I can remember a CEO of DL that actually understood cargo and promoted it. That bodes well for the continuation of the freighter operation. As for NW losing the DLH account, well, the cargo sales reps will just have to work harder to replace them as a customer, won't they?

You can't drum up new customers if your product sucks. They lost DHL because they can't maintain the freighters. As we who have worked on them in the past know they are maintenance PIGS. Now they have really no one in their maintenance program who has much experience working on the 747F. I remember one time in MSP we got a 747 freighter back from C check in Asia and it was so bad the mechanics had 5000 work cards written against it for problems found. I remember the managers pulling their hair out. That was with a full complement of in house mechanics to work out the bugs you really think the skeleton work force they have now can keep up?



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
25 Nwarooster : L Check is a LIGHT CHECK where they only open up about a quarter of the aircraft, working items that need more frequent maintenance. Northwest only ha
26 Burnsie28 : DHL is pretty much gone. They lost the DHL contract because DHL was selling off their US system to UPS, thats why DHL pretty much doesn't exist anymo
27 Max Q : Thanks for the information, are Nwa mechanic's really that bad ?
28 JohnClipper : OH NO - NW lost DHL before the DHL/UPS deal. The DHL/UPS deal is a mostly domestic deal. NW was running NRT-ANC-CVG for UPS for at least the last 6 y
29 COFanNYC : Cargo revenue does not mean freighter revenue. It is very tough to make money on freighters. So if NWA's freighters aren't feeding the belly cargo su
30 Mayor : Exactly. I think the whole drift of this thread is whether DL will keep the "freighter" operation, not whether they will keep cargo. Big difference.
31 Burnsie28 : No stratosphere is just a former disgruntled NW employee that got screwed over by the new contract because his union wouldn't let them vote on anythi
32 NWAESC : The 74f's flew into CVG for DHL, then shifted over to ILN when the hub was moved
33 BlueFlyer : Not quite. The reason DHL gradually stopped using NWA is that DHL Aviation bought a stake in Polar Air Cargo and PAC aircraft have replaced NWA aircr
34 Airbuske : NWA L1 check and L2 check are light checks also known as C1 and C2 (by Boeing atleast). To my knowledge, all 742F's will be retired at the next L1 or
35 Stratosphere : Well if you had a clue you would be dangerous..Be that as it may..The freighter operation was just as I stated disgruntled or not. Fact is the realia
36 Burnsie28 : Looking at their schedules they still have a lot of flying, both are sitting at MSP, one by building F and the other over at C, a normal place both s
37 Nwarooster : Like I said before most of the 985 mechanics that Northwest has now do not know the difference between an airplane and a train. The best left and mos
38 Airbuske : Sorry, I have the memory of a gold fish. 6716 is officially parked so that is already 1 freighter down, 11 to go. Yesterday around 4:30p.m., I saw 66
39 NA : These two venerable 742s must be the oldest passenger-carrying 747s still in use with their original operator, Iran Air excluded. 29 years of continu
40 Airbuske : Perhaps so.. maybe someone else could confirm? N623US IN SRVC 25MAY79 N624US IN SRVC 06JUN79 Without a doubt, this is very true. Alot of engineering
41 Burnsie28 : Disagree, I know quite a few that have been there a while, some just didn't have the money or couldn't afford to relocate their families. Also NW's n
42 413X3 : Call me crazy but I think the old style NWA Cargo livery is just beautiful... And of course the 3 speed livery is beautiful as well. Too bad they did
43 DeltaL1011man : So? Burnsie....repeat after me 3rd party MX
44 Nwarooster : So how can 985 mechanics at Northwest maintain 312 aircraft??????? That is three mechanics per aircraft!!!!!! Third party maintenance!!!!! Got anythi
45 DeltaL1011man : Third party MX which seems to do a good job. Some of those companys (DL,AA and LH all do thrid party MRO work) Nothing wrong with it.. better? lol
46 Nwarooster : None of these listed by you do any major maintenace for Northwest Airlines. Its MROs in the southern US and Asia.
47 DeltaL1011man : I know, I was just pointing out some that do it here in the US (DL and AA) and the largest (LH) I'm not sure who NW uses. I know some of it is SIN ba
48 BinMonster : NWA Freighter Operation days are numbered. The age of the freighter flights is their demise. No capital dollars avaible to replace these birds. Delta
49 DeltaL1011man : they have 7B in cash.............they can buy new 747F/777Fs if they want
50 Burnsie28 : Heavy maint is done outside, thats well known, its been like that for quite sometime, but day to day is still done in house.
51 Mayor : Still don't know where the naysayers are getting their info. Management has told employees that the freighter operation will be operating "for the fo
52 413X3 : But the product they are promoting is based on the higher costs of a classic 747
53 NWAESC : One 747F is going to be flying CRAF missions. Six this year, and up to 75 next year.
54 ER757 : Different market altogether. The freight NW hauls is not the same animal that FX and 5X deal with. NW is more interested in large consignments - in t
55 Mayor : I don't know how NW cargo figures their rates but DL is based on competition between city pairs and not on which equipment the cargo will be riding o
56 CX747 : Whether or not the aircraft are maintenance hogs or being retired soon, it's great to see 747 "Classics" still doing day to day operations. The future
57 Max Q : Delta may have 7B in cash but how much debt do they have ?
58 Nwarooster : Northwest put everything in hock a couple days before the DOJ approved the merger to borrow 500 million dollars. I am sure Richard had an input on th
59 NWAESC : The two different plan thats were discussed pre-merger were to have the -400's convert to freighters on a one-for-one basis as the 787's came on line
60 DALMD88 : Where did you get this idea? The contract that was proposed by NW as a take it or leave it contract was to lay off 50% of mechanics. AMFA's biggest m
61 Stratosphere : Thats partly right DAL...Except that NW and wen out and got all the AMT's living in campers over a year BEFORE we started negoitiations...Does that s
62 Airbuske : This is indeed true. At this point in time, all except 6719 are on plan to be parked in 2009.
63 Mayor : Well, DL is telling the cargo customers that the freighters will be in operation, "for the forseeable future". I would imagine that means past 2009.
64 DeltaL1011man : not just that but I know a few exDL MX people who have loooong retired and NW asked them if they wanted jobs.
65 Airbuske : Belly cargo maybe? The freighters are definitely going to be parked. My source tells me that DAL doesn't want to do cargo. Cargo ops was once very pr
66 DeltaL1011man : No 747-200Fs Your source is wrong
67 PHXtoDCAtoMSP : No.....the sources are not wrong.....trust us. You are just naive. Why would Delta go around telling everyone that they will shut the freighter down
68 AndyDTWnwa7 : And what are your sources? I currently would LIKE to see them keep the cargo ops, but right now feel 'in between', in other words if they shut it dow
69 DeltaL1011man : mine are Cesar MartiGarro, general manager-network planning, freighters for Delta Cargo. Plus the CEO or Delta Air Lines CFO and pres of the bored De
70 NWAESC : What plan? Where can I see this? And your source is?
71 Wjcandee : They lost DHL because DHL bought a substantial ownership interest in Polar.
72 Mayor : No, NOT belly cargo. That will go on, regardless. What I'm talking about is statements to cargo customers that the freighter operation will stay. I h
73 Wjcandee : As others have said, what is at issue here is keeping a DEDICATED 747 Classic freighter fleet flying daily cargo routes. What is NOT at issue is havin
74 Airbuske : NW's 747 fleet manager. I don't know if he would like me disclosing his name so I won't. 742F park plan. It is proprietary information, sorry. Agreed
75 Mayor : Fair enough. I just don't see where management benefits by lying to its cargo customers.
76 NA : Managers play tactics, fleet managers not. I see it like that: The management has not made the final decision yet, but prepares for closing down the f
77 Mayor : I don't buy it. I could if management had told the customers that the freighter operation was going to be slowly eliminated, but in this case they sa
78 Airbuske : I really don't know what is going on with the management. All I can say is that as far as NW 747 engineering knows, all 742F's except 6719 are going
79 Columba : In the recent issue of Aero International - a German aviation magazine - it is stated that NW will retire all 747Fs without replacement.
80 Mayor : Is there an English language version on the internet?
81 Airbuske : I just got unofficial confirmation from someone very high up in management that DAL will NOT have a dedicated freighter fleet. The 744's will not be
82 Mayor : Well, I realize that you're not lying and neither am I. Could it be a case of the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing?
83 NWAESC : That's fine. I actually work at NW, so maybe you can tell me where to access the info. PM me if you want. Until then, I'll believe it when I see it.
84 Airbuske : Something that still might be a possibility is that the whole cargo ops might be sold off. But obviously then DAL will no longer be the operator. How
85 Airbuske : I prefer not to. It is upto you if you wish to doubt my information. Your profile says you are a ramp supervisor and if you're based in DTW, expect t
86 NWAESC : Fair enough. Just understand that playing "I've got a secret," or failing to substantiate where you get your info will often be met with skepticism..
87 Mayor : It's on the current DLNet website, under Cargo Customer Q&A. Saying the whole cargo ops, are you talking about belly cargo, also? If so, you are plai
88 DeltaL1011man : Yes but its not showing up as WFU.......The A320 and DC-9s are WFU. 752s and 74Fs are not. I think that is very likely at this point.......I guess we
89 Airbuske : [Edited 2008-11-14 14:55:15]
90 Mayor : Well, this is what confused me. You didn't differentiate between the freighter operation and the belly cargo ops.
91 Burnsie28 : There is a lot of reason to doubt your information, and btw, he has stated several times he's in MSN *cough* down with the badgers *cough*... sorry h
92 Columba : Can not tell, but I will post a translation soon if you want.
93 CX747 : IF the 747-200Fs are going to stay around for the forseeable future operating cargo and CRAF flights, then what does the future hold for the pax 747-4
94 Mayor : Probably the future of the 744's depends largely on what is coming on line to replace them. Depending on what happens at Boeing, there is supposedly
95 Burnsie28 : Add pilot contracts and so forth to that.
96 Mayor : Just as an FYI, here's what it said in the cargo customer Q&A that I mentioned before...... Will freighter service continue? We will continue to opera
97 NWAESC : Fine by me, since I'm a Ducks fan... *cough*Oregon native*cough* P.S. It's 21-7 Gophers in the 3rd as I write this...
98 BinMonster : Mayor Go on-line to the Delta-net, On-lIne Chat: Previous Chat Transcripts then to: Steve Gorman and Tony Charaf Transcript - September 24, 2008. Tony
99 Nwaesc : Hey Binmonster, Mayor, et al... Now that we at NW have access to DeltaNet, where are these archives? Pretty easy to find, I'm guessing? We can only a
100 Nwarooster : This statement is probably the most correct thing said so far. Most the other replies are speculation. As I have said before,Richard is running the a
101 BinMonster : Hey NWAesc use the Search: function
102 NWAESC : Thanks, I think? Like I said, we at NW can't see anything of substance on DeltaNet when on our home computers (DeltaNet 1.0 only)...
103 NWAESC : Burnsie-- 35-32 Wisconsin, final score.... Looks like Bucky gets to keep the axe...
104 BinMonster : see if you can get to this section xxxxx.delta.com/portal/com/Pages/Online+Chat the xxxx section should already be on your link
105 Nwaesc : Nope, not from home. Attempts to get on the "real" DeltaNet are blocked. By they way, DeltaNet 1.0 goes to the employee version of "newglobalairline.
106 Syncmaster : Correct. FX and 5X tend to carry more small packages than anything. Although - especially more recently - they are in the freight business. This larg
107 Mayor : Not sure what you get on 1.0, but on my DLnet, under "Departments" on the left hand side, click on Delta Cargo and you'll see New Delta Cargo Q&A und
108 NWAESC : Not much. ... As mentioned earlier, it's the employee version of newglobalairline.com.... There's some news stories, memos that we've all already rec
109 Airbuske : I understand where you're coming from. This morning I heard of a rumour that DL will convert some of their older 767's to freighters. But at this poi
110 Mayor : How can I believe your "FACT" when what I read came from DL's website and it was directed towards the cargo customers? What am I supposed to believe,
111 Burnsie28 : Eh the gophers suck too, GO SIOUX! Here is what is going to happen, DL well NW actually did it, but secured some military cargo flying hauling Tanks
112 GARUDAROD : Last month's edition of Air Cargo World stated that 5 NW B747F had/were going to be reengined to newer more fuel efficient models. They also stated th
113 Airbuske : I can understand your doubt, but I have told you what I know truthfully and honestly. I'll leave you to make your own conclusions. Yes, NW bagged a p
114 Mayor : That's already in the works. I only hope they do the same thing to a hub like SLC, too.
115 Wjcandee : I will stick with my observation that they'll keep it if it's profitable and ditch it if it isn't, combined with my observation that there are lots of
116 Wjcandee : For what it's worth, this is what CargoNews Asia had to say about all of this yesterday (fair use excerpt of much bigger article): "Given the price of
117 Columba : IF DL should keep the maindeck cargo operation would it make sense for them getting some 777F. They would be very similar to their 777LRs.
118 413X3 : This is just my imagination... but how about this. The new delta/nwa retires the classics, and runs a belly cargo only department. they sell the 744s
119 Mayor : Just as an FYI, this Shah is Neil Shah, the head of DL Cargo.
120 Airbuske : Lol what a coincidence that we share the same last name
121 Wjcandee : This is an interesting idea. However, most airlines have contracts with their pilot's union that include something called a "scope clause", which, ge
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