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Do Pilot Still Have One Short Flight A Day?  
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3649 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9363 times:

I have reed of stories, where Eastern would have a L1011 crew, fly a Tristar from MIA to JFK and back and that was there flight for the day. Do some airlines, still give there crew just one short flight a day?

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3592 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9331 times:

Miami to JFK and return sounds like a full day of flying to me. That would be about 6.5 block hours according to the DL schedules. (3:15 each way). If you include and hour for turning the plane around plus a minimum of :30 at the originating airport for prep work, that would be a full 8 hour day.

User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1535 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9311 times:

When we had our second overnighter at MLI this summer, the crew that flew the second one in at about 10:30 PM hadn't flown at all that day, so they started work around 8:00 PM and finished at about 10:30. The only crappy part was that they had to fly that same plane out at 5:45 the next morning and had a decently full day of flying that day. I know there are some other short schedules, but they're escaping me at the moment.

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9269 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):

 checkmark 

A lot of the senior guys get these trips. Everyone thinks that the guys doing transcons and int'l are. Would never forget a DL captain, his name was Mike Birmingham (retired about 4 years ago) and he was on the 757. He was something like #10 or 20 out of the 757 captains. I saw him a lot on the ATL-STT-ATL run. His flight left anywhere between 9 and 12 from Atlanta (depended on time of year). Did the one hr turn in St. Thomas and was back at the airport by 9.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 2):
When we had our second overnighter at MLI this summer, the crew that flew the second one in at about 10:30 PM hadn't flown at all that day, so they started work around 8:00 PM and finished at about 10:30. The only crappy part was that they had to fly that same plane out at 5:45 the next morning and had a decently full day of flying that day. I know there are some other short schedules, but they're escaping me at the moment.

I saw that a lot at ASA while non-reving but reverse. Once had a flight to AGS. The crew from Atlanta had started the day in Panama City, then the short hop to ATL. They they picked up the flight across I-20 to AGS and they were done at 1230. The oher crew was already at the airport ready to turn her around back to Atlanta and had quite a day ahead of them that i'm sure didn't entil about 11 that evening.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2830 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9140 times:



Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I have reed of stories, where Eastern would have a L1011 crew, fly a Tristar from MIA to JFK and back and that was there flight for the day. Do some airlines, still give there crew just one short flight a day?

Seems to me that MIA-JFK-MIA is two legs, and above average for block time for a domestic day, certainly over 6 hours. It would almost certainly be worse now than it was for EA given the congestion in JFK. There are a few good deals out there, but in general we work a full day.


User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9119 times:

I had a few pairings where all I did was fly ORD to SBN (takes longer to taxi) early in the morning and have a really long Saturday in SBN and leave SBN early the next morning and have a long 4 or 5 leg day. Just to note, ORD was also an overnight for us too so that would put us like day 2 of a 4 day pairing, or maybe day 3.


EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9099 times:

At my airline, we often do days that are 13-14 hours duty, 7-8 hours block, and 5-6 legs.

Anything less than 12 hours duty, 6 hours block, or 4 legs is considered to be a "short" day.


User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8930 times:

A Comair JFK based crew was telling me they'd fly JFK-BTV leave at like 10pm arrive at 11:30pm, then leave for JFK at 6am the next day. They'd technically be "on duty" all night, and only fly two segments.

-a



What now?
User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8450 times:



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 7):
A Comair JFK based crew was telling me they'd fly JFK-BTV leave at like 10pm arrive at 11:30pm, then leave for JFK at 6am the next day. They'd technically be "on duty" all night, and only fly two segments.

They call these Standups, Continuous Duty Overnights, or Highspeeds. They're quite common in the regionals. Mesaba has a ton of them, especially out of Minneapolis.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8166 times:

The most senior crews on the aircraft that will allow it, fly "long day turns" all month. That is YYZ-YVR-YYZ on the B767 or B777, YYZ-SFO-YYZ on the A320 or YYZ-PHX-YYZ on the E190.

By doing a month like that, one works only 8 or 9 days a month. Albeit long days.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineGrimey From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 455 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7215 times:

What is the max number of hours a pilot can fly / work per year, month or day. I heard before that the max per year is 900 hours is that true?

Grimey


User currently offlineGrimey From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 455 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6955 times:

I did a bit of a search on the Irish Aviation Authority website and found a pdf listing out the total amount of hours a pilot can fly.

http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=97&a=225&pp=93&nn=97&lID=296

Looks like it's 800 hours a year

Grimey


User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1789 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6934 times:

All across Europe, including LCC's, pilots and cabin crew work short days. Some more than others. I've done MAN-INN MAN-SZG MAN-ALC etc etc....the list is endless.


Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlineHslightnin From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6690 times:



Quoting Grimey (Reply 10):
What is the max number of hours a pilot can fly / work per year, month or day. I heard before that the max per year is 900 hours is that true?

Grimey

30 in 7days
100 in a month
1000 year

yesterday I did 1 leg 1.5 hrs, today 2 legs with 3hrs of block
Waste of my time
when I goto work I want to work.


User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6596 times:

I know a flight attendant at LX who did already once a ZRH-VIE-ZRH turnaround during a day including the rest of the crew and that was it for them in one day. Those things are rather exceptional but do happen at most airlines.

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7548 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6522 times:

At one point NW had a crew start a 5 day trip doing MSP-GFK departing at 10:30 and arriving at 11:30, they would then fly the next day at 4:30


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25459 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6481 times:

When BA started service to SEA sometime in the early 1980s or so it was an extension of their LHR-YVR service using 742. It operated LHR-YVR-SEA-YVR-LHR. I recall the entire cockpit and cabin crew changed at YVR and the new crew operated only the short YVR-SEA-YVR legs (110 nm, about 30 minutes block time each way). Then they spent another night in YVR. And since their service on that route was less than daily then, they must have often spent at least 3 nights in YVR before returning to LHR. BA was of course government-owned then and less efficient than today.

[Edited 2008-11-10 12:24:46]

[Edited 2008-11-10 12:25:39]

[Edited 2008-11-10 12:26:29]

User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1535 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5949 times:



Quoting Xtoler (Reply 5):
I had a few pairings where all I did was fly ORD to SBN (takes longer to taxi) early in the morning and have a really long Saturday in SBN

Doesn't sound so bad if you're a football fan.  Wink


User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3038 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5686 times:



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 7):
They'd technically be "on duty" all night, and only fly two segments.

Betcha they also don;t get a hotel room...


User currently offlineCallBell From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5616 times:

The great thing about a job as a Pilot or Flight Att./ Cabin crew is that no two days are the same. Yes we may have some short days, but its all swings and roundabouts. By that I mean there are some days when you have a short day, but there are others when the day is far longer than the average 8hr day. Just as no one works 15 hr days everyday, no one works 5 hr days every day, it's all a mix.

User currently offlineContrails15 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5472 times:

Whenever I feel like BSing with the pilots of the flights I do I'll ask them what legs there doing. I can say its not rare at all to hear JFK-BOS-IAD-JFK or just JFK-PWM-JFK and call it a day. All depends on what the pilots put in for, for there schedule that month.


Giants football!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5394 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 15):
At one point NW had a crew start a 5 day trip doing MSP-GFK departing at 10:30 and arriving at 11:30, they would then fly the next day at 4:30

This would mean a bit more if you used the abbreviations "A.M." and "P.M.," as appropriate.

 Smile


User currently offlineAvallillo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5013 times:

Yes, there are probably still single leg short days out there, although the MIA-JFK turn you use as an illustration is not one of them! (That, as has been mentioned above, is a full day of flying!)

Something closer to what you are talking about would have been the JFK-BDA schedules we used to have at American, and may still for all I know (I retired a few months ago). JFK-BDA in the evening, followed by a layover in BDA, and then BDA-JFK in the morning, and you were done! Each day had only a single leg of around 1.5 hours actual flying, although the block times on the evening flight from JFK-BDA could be nearly 4 hours with all of the early evening delays at JFK! There was even a time when the layover was 30 some hours in BDA, because the morning trip left too early for the pilots to take it out the next day. AA changed the schedules a year or two ago so that the layover could be shorter - more's the pity!

Schedules like this are generally avoided because they are non productive and rather expensive. Nearly all airline pilots get paid according to formulae that involve minimums of pay per duty day, per trip, and so on. That 2 hour block time flight from BDA-JFK cost the company 5 hours of pilot pay per crewmember, since the minimum pay for a day of duty, regardless of how much flying is actually done is 5 hours on the most recent contract I know of. And if it involved a 30+ hour layover, the actual pay for the entire trip, 3 days in which only at most 4 hours of actual flying occurred, was around 12 hours.

Typically, low time schedules like this are the bits and pieces that fall out of the scheduling process - the computers can fine tune the schedules so that 99 + % of the pilot trips are productive - that is, where the pay ends up being strictly for the actual flying done, because the actual flying done is above the daily minimums. There is, however, always some slop, and thus a few trips will be assembled that don't have enough flying in them to exceed the minimums - some fall short by a good bit, like the BDA trips!

The minimums in the contracts came about because, in the old days (1950's for example) it was not uncommon to have a trip that would go from, say, JFK-ROC, layover for 2 days, and fly back ROC-JFK, and the pilots would be away from home for 3 days and be paid the grandiose sum of 4 hours of pay! Pilots like to spend time at home as much as anybody, and since the unions have always had a certain amount of shall we say bargaining power, the so-called duty rigs ( the provisions in the contract that call for minimums of pay in certain circumstances) were eventually negotiated.


User currently offlineVHXLR8 From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 500 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4055 times:

QF short haul crew have a lot of 'short days'. It's quite a common pattern for say a MEL based crew to do MEL-SYD-MEL and that's it; 4.5hr day. Similarly SYD based crew have a lot of SYD-MEL-SYD days. The same can be said for flights to BNE, ADL, CBR etc.
These trips tend to be very junior as the hours are so low, you end up with less days off as you have to work more days to reach your quota of hours.
When I was short haul I knew the 0515-0945 MEL-SYD-MEL trips very well!!  Smile


User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

Seniority is everything. If the company creates trip pairings that are easy and don't involve much flying it is hard to blame anyone for bidding for these trips.

My schedule for December has 18 days off. If that's how the company chooses to use me that's how they choose to use me.

Tomorrow I fly two legs and finish before 10 AM. I'll sit all day at my layover city. Doesn't sound too efficient, but that's how the pairing is constructed.

There are many reasons for this and I am not pointing fingers at the company. Some of the reasons include legal reasons, scheduling for customer demand, aircraft positioning, etc. Right now most airlines are running a bit fat on pilots and so there is less flying to go around.

Many reasons for 'easy' days. But flying a widebody from Florida to New York and back is more flying than I do somedays. The turnaround time on the ground for a widebody is at least 1 hour, probably more like 90 minutes. The flight time is 2.5 - 3 hours. And the pre-flight planning is also about an hour. So that constitutes a normal workday by my reckoning. Not real hard, but hardly extraordinarily easy either.



smrtrthnu
25 Saxman66 : I'm on reserve so my trips are very random sometimes. I'm starting a four day trip today. Deadhead from JFK to CVG to STL for the overnight. Get there
26 Xjramper : I don't know about other stations, but our ASA crews are put up in a hotel for a couple hour nap before they are to fly back out during the stand up.
27 Planespotting : Of course - these are the primo legs. My aunts been an AA F/A since the late 1960s and she can bid on pretty much any trip she wants. Her favorites ar
28 EXTspotter : I've heard from a friend who is a head FA at FR, that the hardest days for Pilots as well as FAs are very short hops. When he was at PIK, the worst yo
29 Saab2000 : This is absolutely correct. I fly as part of the US Airways Express system in the eastern United States. We have many, many days with 6 legs per day.
30 AcNDTTech : USAirways (PSA) in CVG had 0600 flt. to PIT returning about 0930. That was it for that crew - that was when CVG was still a crew domicile until shortl
31 Burnsie28 : Sorry 10:30 PM (22:30) and Arrive 11:37 PM (23.37) and leave the following day at 4:40 PM (16:40)
32 Pilotpip : That depends on the contract. Ours requires a hotel room for any scheduled sit longer than 5 hours. We get a lot of four hour sits as a result. For t
33 AcNDTTech : Also, I remember some lines that crews could bid were for last in/ first out......One leg being the last for a RON aircraft, and the other leg being t
34 6thfreedom : Spot on... I would dare say that a lot of low cost airlines often build there schedules built around crew times to maximise returns. Quite often you
35 Post contains links CatIII : Sorry...my bad. I had read a blog posting about Mesa not getting a hotel room on a CDO and assumed it was an industry norm. http://fl250.blogspot.com
36 Pilotpip : That policy changed at Mesa after some very bad press. Don't assume too much with Mesa, sadly they have the worst pilot contract in the industry by a
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