MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31118 posts, RR: 73 Posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8459 times:
And let the games begin...
Denver's hopes to land direct Tokyo flights have been lifted by Boeing's development of the 787, which could debut next year. The plane's capacity of 200 to 300 passengers, smaller than a 747, makes Denver a viable market, said Tom Clark, executive vice president of the Metro Denver Economic Development Corp.
Clark said All Nippon Airways plans to commit just two of its new 787s to North America next year. Denver is competing with Seattle, Los Angeles, Boston and Miami, he said.
I assume with Los Angeles, ANA is considering opening up a route to Nagoya or Osaka with the 787.
As many incentives as Boston, Denver, and Miami might throw to get their sought after Tokyo route, I think that ANA will stick to opening thinner routes to Los Angeles or Chicago before going to new cities.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 25 Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8422 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter): I think that ANA will stick to opening thinner routes to Los Angeles or Chicago before going to new cities.
I tend to agree but do think that of the 4 mentioned, DEN makes the most sense given the Star Alliance connections. BOS I see being served by DL/NW and I definitely see MIA being served by AA/JL once 787s arrive on property.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31118 posts, RR: 73 Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8410 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 2):
I tend to agree but do think that of the 4 mentioned, DEN makes the most sense given the Star Alliance connections.
Yes, it probably does.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 2): BOS I see being served by DL/NW and I definitely see MIA being served by AA/JL once 787s arrive on property.
Agreed on both. I don't envision ANA flying to BOS or MIA in the near future. AA has already indicated that MIA-NRT is a potential 787 route:
But Cush says new routes could come in the future if AA orders new long-range jets like the Boeing 787 or the Airbus A350. "There will be new city-pairs being created that can't be flown today, Miami-Narita being a perfect example that is too far to fly today,'' he tells Bloomberg. "That's one where an aircraft may support it tomorrow." http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2007/08/aa-narita.html
The first airline flying MIA-NRT will probably be oneWorld, whether it is American Airlines, JAL, or maybe even LAN Chile.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31118 posts, RR: 73 Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8307 times:
Quoting Centrair (Reply 4): Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
The first airline flying MIA-NRT will probably be oneWorld, whether it is American Airlines, JAL, or maybe even LAN Chile.
I would say JL or Lan before AA...pilot issues.
We are talking 2012. If "pilot issues" are a problem still, starting MIA-NRT is the last of AA's worries.
Ktachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8202 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter): I assume with Los Angeles, ANA is considering opening up a route to Nagoya or Osaka with the 787
I would bet that KIX could be taken off the list. There is no more business in the Osaka region to make this area viable. Besides, ANA is a major stock holder of NGO (Airport itself) and has allocated it as the 2nd int'l hub in Japan after NRT.
Atlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8142 times:
Quoting Sydscott (Reply 5): There is not Star feed there either.
Think that US would highly disagree with you.
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Airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6888 posts, RR: 7 Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8132 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter): As many incentives as Boston, Denver, and Miami might throw to get their sought after Tokyo route, I think that ANA will stick to opening thinner routes to Los Angeles or Chicago before going to new cities.
I agree. I would throw SEA in there too.
Quoting Sydscott (Reply 5): BOS - Depends on subsidies but unlikely. There is not Star feed there either.
US has a pretty decent presence at BOS and even though BOS is very heavy in O&D traffic, the amount of connecting traffic at BOS is often underestimated. This combination of strong O&D that keeps on giving, and healthy connecting traffic is what makes BOS one of the largest international gateways in the US, especially for TATL traffic.
In any case we're talking 2-3 years down the road here. A lot of things can change between now and when ANA actually has their planes available.
As for NW, I always thought they were better positioned to start the route back when they were NW. Under DL however, things will be very different. I just don't see DL starting BOS-Asia service from Boston at all, after years and years of neglecting any European routes from BOS.
Sxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8040 times:
I think SEA is a possibility, with NH replacing UA on the route.
B752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7991 times:
Quoting Sydscott (Reply 5): BOS - Depends on subsidies but unlikely. There is not Star feed there either.
BOS would not need subsidies to make a non-stop flight to Asia work. BOS has solid O&D to Tokyo and China. I believe BOS has the largest market to Asia without a non-stop.
But I think DL/NW is more likely than NH. In any event, I don't think it would be off to say that BOS, along with PHL and MIA will have at least one non-stop each to Asia within 2-4 years.
Abrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 55 Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7949 times:
Quoting B752OS (Reply 11): BOS would not need subsidies to make a non-stop flight to Asia work.
= Don't you think if the true market was there, an airline would serve it already? BOS might have a case - but it suffers from the lack of feed. Moreover, O&D to BOS from non-European cities do not have a yield premium.
Interesting article. I am surprised, LAS is not mentioned alongside DEN.
B752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7920 times:
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 12): = Don't you think if the true market was there, an airline would serve it already? BOS might have a case - but it suffers from the lack of feed. Moreover, O&D to BOS from non-European cities do not have a yield premium.
Interesting article. I am surprised, LAS is not mentioned alongside DEN.
Saludos,
A.
The market for BOS-Asia is there. Its just a matter of the right aircraft being used. The 787 is perfect for BOS-Asia, just as it is for MIA-Asia, DEN-Asia, etc. BOS suffers from a lack of feed on the U.S. side, not Asia side which is what would make this flight work. That and people that would usually use PVD or MHT and connect via JFK, EWR, ORD, or DTW for a NRT flight, would probably opt for a non-stop from BOS. Also, US does have a decent sized network out of BOS for a Star partner.
Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8815 posts, RR: 19 Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7870 times:
Quoting Atlanta (Reply 8): Quoting Sydscott (Reply 5):
There is not Star feed there either.
Think that US would highly disagree with you.
I think he's confusing BOS with PIT somehow...
Quoting B752OS (Reply 11): I don't think it would be off to say that BOS, along with PHL and MIA will have at least one non-stop each to Asia within 2-4 years.
Me neither. Is US still planning to launch PHL-PEK in 2010, or was that scaled back due to the gate shuffle situation at PHL? I would like to see PHL become even more of a true international gateway with more than just service to Canada, Latin America and Europe...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26723 posts, RR: 83 Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7772 times:
Quoting Sydscott (Reply 5): We could probably strike Seattle off. They already have service to Japan.
Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 10): I think SEA is a possibility, with NH replacing UA on the route.
UA seems to do well enough on the route, especially in the premium cabin, though there has been talk of the flight switching from a 777-200ER to a 767-300ER now that the 767's have private suites (F is often full on the planes when I take them). There were rumors of NH starting SEA-NGO, but nothing really came of it.
Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8815 posts, RR: 19 Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7714 times:
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 15): ...you realize that this statement makes no sense, right?
Ummm. yeah... maybe I should have said something along the lines of aa "larger" gateway instead of a "true" one...
What the heck am I on???
Well, in any event, I thin PHL is the largest market without non-stop Asia service...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
Gunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3462 posts, RR: 11 Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7641 times:
Quoting Sydscott (Reply 5): We could probably strike Seattle off. They already have service to Japan.
Yes, but I'm not sure SEA's chances here are dependent on NRT service. ANA could do very well with NGO-SEA, especially with business traffic related to the aircraft flying the route. BOS seems likely given the lack of service to Asia and DEN probably has a better chance than MIA due to its *A connections.
AlexInWa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1107 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7599 times:
Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 10): I think SEA is a possibility, with NH replacing UA on the route.
Couldn't agree more!!! It's sad to see what UA's service has dropped to here in SEA. If UA drops NRT it would leave no UA wide-body service, thus making a move out of N gates easier!!
The Nagoya from SEA is an interesting idea. However I'm wondering if the new DL will re-start SEA-KIX?
If DL does that I can see UA pulling out of SEA-NRT with NH taking it's place before NH would start SEA-NGO!!
At this point I just want to see a few 787's here in SEA
BOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1887 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7457 times:
I think for BOS, DL/NW is more likely. They can feed it on the BOS side with the flights to Maritime Canada, although they've been cutting back in that market. NRT is also a DL/NW hub. US can provide some feed, but those routes are set up to connect to LH's flights.
ChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3807 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7454 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 2): BOS I see being served by DL/NW
I've long held that ANA would be the first carrier to provide nonstop service between Asia and Boston, and I believe they are ahead of NW (DL) for 787 deliveries. Besides, has DL given ANY indication whatsoever that they care about international service to/from Boston? I mean, the issues that caused them to retrench from Boston in the first place are still there, aren't they?
Ovrpowrd727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 96 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7424 times:
Just a random question, does NH operate the longest non-stop with a 77W?? i didn't know the next aircraft in line for Boeing will make available so many options...i agree with the aforementioned replies, DL, AA, and US already have most practical destinations already called for. NH should be better off maximizing what they already have until the market gets on its legs once more
ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7369 times:
Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 22): Besides, has DL given ANY indication whatsoever that they care about international service to/from Boston? I mean, the issues that caused them to retrench from Boston in the first place are still there, aren't they?
Different management and different overall strategy.
I'm sure they still wouldn't be too thrilled about having to tow from E... but with a shiny new terminal there, and an established market+FFP base, it's not too much of a stretch to see them at least giving BOS consideration for int'l expansion.
25 Steeler83: It was supposed to be a smartalec response... man, apparently I'm striking out here with my replies!!! UGH!!! I think I will get the hell out of this
26 Airbazar: Thank you. I can't believe there are people who think DL will ever serve long-haul international destinations from BOS. Just days into the approved m
27 TN757Flyer: I'd have to agree. KIX seems to be a graveyard for US nonstop flights. As for BOS, at one time, didn't AA/JL either own or apply for the NRT route? I
28 MAH4546: The fact that they might not "need" it is irrelevant. Airports like DEN and MIA will offer subsidies, automatically making BOS less attractive. BOS w
29 B752OS: Perhaps I misunderstood his point then. I thought he was referring to local business and or the city of Boston offering an airline a subsidy program
30 Viscount724: AC also just dropped YVR-KIX. A few other carriers have also recently eliminated service to KIX.
31 EddieDude: Spill the beans Mark... what do you know? In my opinion, the proximity to JFK/EWR and IAD prevents PHL from becoming a major international gateway. I
32 ChrisNH: American Airlines actually had MD-11 flights between Boston and Narita announced and for sale before scrapping the idea entirely. Depending on whom yo
33 United787: I am going to throw my hat into the DEN ring. This could be a good thing for UA since they could provide a lot of feed and code share for some cash...
34 Airbazar: BOS already has incentives in place, targeted specifically at Asian non-stop flights. http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...008-02-25-airport-incent
35 Spacecadet: You have the general story right, however this runway is being lengthened in the other direction from what I understand now. So the runway issue shou
36 MAH4546: There were no slot issues, IIRC. AA received the slots they needed. The flight was on sale and bookable; the economy sank in 1999, and AA ended plans
37 Jfk777: The Japanesse airlines seem to be allergic to most of the USA except Hawaii, SFO, LAX, ORD, IAD and JFK. BOS would be a logical next step for ANA or J
38 MAH4546: You obviously have not followed what DL and AA have done to Logan lately.
39 Carpethead: Assuming the 787 is delivered in 2010, it won't be crossing any continents or oceans until 2011 at the earliest due to Japanese aviation certificatio
40 Vega: I don't necessarily disagree with you, however a flight or 2 to Mexico is surely not a criteria for defining a "major intercontinental gateway". IMO,
41 Tommy767: Sorry, but can someone tell me why ANA isn't considering EWR? There is a good amount of int'l star alliance feed from there. Are they very loyal to JF
42 EddieDude: My reference to the PHL-MEX flight that US had announced in 2003 for launch in Jan. 2004 was merely one example of many apparent route opportunities
43 BOStonsox: So I'm wondering, if AA had plans to start BOS-NRT with the jets they had in 2001, and if evey other airline has the same kind of jets (or jets with t
44 MAH4546: Obviously it wouldn't have worked then as AA decided not to start the service.
45 EddieDude: Well, because it will -supposedly- be 20% more fuel efficient than the planes it aims to replace. At a lower cost, such a route may be profitable. Wi
46 Centrair: I think the first 787 service to Asia from BOS will be not with a US carrier or Japanese but with KE. They have had their eyes on BOS for a long time.
47 BOStonsox: AA decided not to start it, but they had done everything they could to start it, even selling tickets! I wonder if the ticket sales weren't matching
48 MAH4546: A souring economy in 1999 and poor advanced ticket sales pulled the plug. They eventually went ahead and started JFK-NRT, though, which was supposed
49 ER757: Well, I think QF is a long, long shot, but the others are possible IMO. One 787 for sure that we'll see here is Hainan - when they started the PEK/SE
50 BOStonsox: Okay, that makes sense. That wasn't in 2001? For some reason I thought it was. I must've been mistaken.
51 Steeler83: I would also think that gate space (or the lack thereof) would also play as a factor... I still think that PHL is its own separate market entirely fr
52 CV990Coronado: Wouldn't DEN NRT have "Hot and High" issues particularly in the summer going westbound with single engine out performance.
53 LH423: No. If memory serves, the route was to begin in November 1998. I seem to recall me thinking what a lovely birthday gift AA was giving me to have thei
54 ADent: NRT-DEN is 800 nm shorter than NRT-BOS. The great circle route does not cross Russia and runs nicely down the west coast of Canada. Good connections.
55 Airbazar: Boston's economy was incredibly strong in 1999, especially in the tech and financial services sectors. More importantly, fuel was really cheap and ai
56 Jfk777: Given the number of 30 degree Celseius days in Boston in a year, its not a big deal. My guess is 30 degree Cel. is 88 Fahrenheit, since most east coa
57 Airbazar: Not only do we get a good number of hot days but we have an even larger number of very humid days (Dew point above 50%). It's fun to go over to Castl
58 Davescj: I think DEN would make the most sense, as they will have instant feed from *A carriers onto the route. Combine that with DEN's assistance/subsidy, etc
59 Spacecadet: Not nearly as much Japanese O&D traffic at EWR. You can look up the stats yourself; they're on the PA's web site. Tokyo is something like the #2 inte
60 LH423: Yes, 30ºC=86ºF. However, Massachusetts gets plenty of days between late-June and mid-September that cam cross that threshold. I remember one July g
61 SlcDeltaRUmd11: With SLC-NRT A330 announced today DEN is going to have alot harder time launching that service. They would be fighting the same connecting traffic mar
62 Abrelosojos: = MIA has courted both JL and LA for this ... also, CX ... though, more of a cargo thing. I agree with Mark ... and think the return to Japan flights
63 AlexInWa: Not sure I agree..........DL pax and UA/NH pax..........I don't think DL SLC-NRT has any bearing on DEN with it's UA presence. That being said I stil
64 Davescj: I think this is right on. SLC has a massive DL base, but no one is going to go DEN to connect in SLC......the DEN is too much a UA/*A base. If anythi
65 B752OS: I think he may have meant that the American side connections, are going to be hurt since SL and DEN are in the same region.
66 SlcDeltaRUmd11: I think both SLC-NRT and DEN-NRT would be operated heavily off of connecting passengers. Since SLC-NRT is definite and earlier they would be fighting
67 SlcDeltaRUmd11: "There are a lot of ways for people in Salt Lake to take Delta and its partners east, but there aren't a lot of ways to take Delta and its partners we
68 ChrisNH: The news from Delta Air Lines yesterday re-affirms my declaration that they will not be the first airline to serve Asia from Boston. I still maintain
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