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Delta Strategy For The South Pacific?  
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3152 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11012 times:

The rumors of a Delta service to Australia have been around for a few years now. Most of us would assume this would consist of a service to SYD from LAX or ATL. While these rumors have been going on, we have seen Delta go forward with a most amazing expansion into Africa, one which most of us would not have predicted in scope and function - the use of scissor hubs in Dakar and Sal to serve a great many destinations, many with 757s.

Is such a plan in the works for the South Pacific? Blanket the region with service on two fronts - nonstop between the major markets with daily 777 flights, and then use a scissors hub in HNL to serve the smaller markets with one-stop same plane or connections with smaller aircraft. The difference from Africa would be the use of 767s or A-330s where the 757 would not have the range.

So how plausible is this?

I can see the following 777LR service:

SYD-ATL
SYD-JFK (all business class due to range issues).
I understand QF does very well on their JFK premium sales.

Then perhaps a scissors hub in HNL for the rest:

ANC (via AS c/s)/SEA/PDX/SFO/LAX/SLC/MSP/ATL - HNL - AKL/BNE/SYD/MEL/ADL/PER
3/4x weekly. Perhaps add CNS/OOL/DRW later on?

Some of the above could be same plane service between cities without current service, such as PER-LAX and SYD-SEA, albiet with the stop.

The real winners in such a scheme would be cities such as PER, SEA, PDX, SLC, etc.

I see a couple advantages over a scissors hub in Hawaii that Sal does not offer for Africa. First, half the flights are already in place (N. America to HNL); local traffic to/from Hawaii can be carried (however, eastbound Oceana-N America service would have to clear customs in HNL to take advantage of this); and when Delta enters this market, if they need to add flights to N. America for such a plan, it would fill some of the gaps left from the loss of Aloha and ATA. All this is of course dependent on a recovering world economy, which will hopefully be happening when Delta enters this region.

This may seem far fetched, but think about how we would have thought about Delta's planned African service just two years ago. QF and JetStar have a lot of 787s comming that will need to be countered if the competition is serious. So how do all you armchair route planners think Delta will serve the S. Pacific?

[Edited 2008-11-17 21:29:00]


FLYi
89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineConcordski From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10967 times:

This has been discussed a lot but I think there's a significant possibility that Delta will start Sydney service. Delta has been outgoing and hasn't been afrait to try the scissor hub method as mentioned with Dakar and newly announced Sal. Delta even asked Boeing for possibly ways to get even more range out of the 77L. No where should they need the range that I can see besides SYD. However, I think they came up empty handed reguardless of the potential eastcoast-SYD demand. Maybe if Delta and Alaska Airlines get a little cozier might we see SEA-SYD service. SLC not a chance even with Delta's bold SLC-NRT which has required much convincing by the people in SLC with $. SYD would have to be a must before other cities like MEL. Asking for anything else seems to be stretching it but then again, asking for service to many tiny DL long range markets seemed the same way. LAX as possible origin if they re-open the hub, again. lol.

I think it's coming but Delta will wait out the recession and focus more on emerging business markets as seen by the Deltafrica expansion.

[Edited 2008-11-17 21:45:49]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25059 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10803 times:

Seems like every month this is discussed.


Anyhow my twocents 

US-Australia local market O&D demand is heavily skewed towards California. I show 62% of all travelers in 2006 between the countries started or ended their journey in California with LA being by far the largest chunk of that. In other words all the remaining 49 states only add up to the remaining 38%.
Knowing this DL either either must make a what could be costly and bloody stand out of California, or try to capture as much of that 38% possible of the rest of the country via ATL lets assume. Practically speaking however only the 38% East of the Mississippi could be routed via ATL, so very fast the potential market shrinks ever more.

As far as your scissor hub idea for get it. Remember history that both CO and UA for basically operated such flights with West Coast services connecting to Australia and New Zealand at HNL. Today look at HA which does that pretty much connects the entire West Coast via HNL to SYD and only manages 3-4x weekly service. HA is actually so desperate for West Coast feed for its SYD flight that is offers free stopovers or intra-island flights if desired in addition to consistently having one of the lowest US-Australia fares. In other words the Hawaii stop kills your yield compared to nonstop options from mainland US.


Now my personal and easy recommondation for DL -- make a deal with V Australia.  Wink

[Edited 2008-11-17 23:27:01]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5629 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10748 times:

Here we go again!  banghead 

Actually I think the idea of DL hubbing over HNL is a great idea PROVIDED they:
1) Coordinate the schedules so that there is no more than a 2 hour or so layover
2) Make the connection as seamless as possible
3) Use decent planes (A330, Fully refurbished B767s etc)
4) Concentrate on an everywhere east of the Rockies non-stop strategy, ie forget the west coast except maybe SEA & PDX

The history of services HNL-anywhere but SYD is not encouraging! But with enough connection possibilities it might work. HNL-PER at 5880 nm is probably too far, unless DL is willing to put an A332 on it.

As for ATL-SYD & JFK-SYD I have seen NOTHING to change my mind, its too far and not enough traffic.

Frankly I would be surprised if DL would be prepared to commit the management and financial resources to make this work, because there are more profitable routes elsewhere, but who knows!

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3152 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10642 times:

Well I did do a search on the topic with no real results other than the usual chatter about the rumored ATL-SYD and the usual SQ stuff. Nothing came up on a Delta scissors hub strategy; certainly nothing since they actually announced such a network for use in Africa. But whatever.


FLYi
User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 688 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10616 times:

Would DL be able to get rights to do ATL/LAX-SYD-PER? This would give Skyteam airlines a connection to the west coast (currently not one Skyteam member serves PER)

User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3186 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 10562 times:



Quoting Ben175 (Reply 5):
(currently not one Skyteam member serves PER)

Kenya Airways were at one point due to start services to PER next year!?

But with Skyteam, could see it more likely to fly KE LAX-ICN-PER than with DL.

Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 10552 times:

Of course the big advantage of a HNL scissor hub (similar to the Hong Kong Koruhub between multiple UK and Australia destinations which is advocated on the NZ Aviation threads) is that

THIS WOULD MASSIVELY INCREASE YIELDS BETWEEN US MAINLAND DESTINATIONS AND HONOLULU.

At present, virtually all mainland-HNL services carry low-yielding tourist traffic.

But if each 767 from say San Diego, Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, Oakland and further east managed to sell even four Business Class and, ultimately when Americans learn the value of the product, Premium Economy seats to passengers flying through to Australia then those mainland-HNL flights will become far more profitable.

The whole point of this is NOT to try to compete for the O+D LAX-SYD market, but to use the fact that Honolulu Airport is a far better one to transit than LAX or even SFO, not to mention that a stopover in Hawaii has attracted Trans-Pacific travellers since the days of the Clippers and the 707s.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2966 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 10439 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Now my personal and easy recommondation for DL -- make a deal with V Australia.

Exactly! A tie up with V Australia brings both Australian Domestic, Trans Tasman and South Pacific feed to the DL network. It's a much more sensible option especially when V will have a fleet of brand new 773's to use and an existing relationship with NW.


User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 10433 times:



Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
SYD-ATL
SYD-JFK (all business class due to range issues)

Neither of which will ever happen, at least not with a 777-200LR, as we will not be receiving them with auxiliary fuel tanks. Nor would we create a sub-fleet of LRs, ever. Period. End of discussion.

When we being SYD service, it will, more than likely, be a direct service from either JFK (via LAX) or ATL (again, via LAX), and even then, not necessarily a 777-200LR on the route (though, more than likely, it will be).


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 688 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 10386 times:



Quote:
Kenya Airways were at one point due to start services to PER next year!?

I heard about this too, but a google search came up with nothing. Supposingly they would be operating Nairobi - Perth- Sydney with a 772.

I think it might be a rumor.  Sad


User currently offlineSparkingWave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 670 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 10346 times:

A stopover in HNL won't work - no one wants to stopover in HNL when they can just fly nonstop to Asia from the U.S. mainland. Don't just take my word for it. AA flew to SYD via HNL years ago and was never able to make this flight work so they pulled out.

Even NW once had Calfornia nonstop to Australia flights, lost money and pulled out as well, leaving only UA with these flights.

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
we have seen Delta go forward with a most amazing expansion into Africa, one which most of us would not have predicted in scope and function - the use of scissor hubs in Dakar and Sal to serve a great many destinations, many with 757s.

DL's expansion has been the most impressive. But with the recession in place and many Americans cutting back on spending, it is a serious question to see how long this can last. IMHO it will only be a matter of time before DL retreats from many of these markets to save cash.



Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
User currently offlineFrostbite From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 10221 times:



Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
This may seem far fetched, but think about how we would have thought about Delta's planned African service just two years ago.

It'a an apples & oranges comparison. Africa is a highly underserved market from the U.S....Australia and NZ have very well-established air links to the U.S.

A Sal-style scissor hub in HNL would be a tremendous boondoggle.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 10095 times:

not only do Australian airlines have 787s on order but so does DL/NW. How those deliveries play out remains to be seen but the 787 and 777 are designed to fragment the market using nostop routes. A scissor hub doesn't fragment the market with more new nonstops.

And scissor hubs generally result in LOWER not higher yields if you are competing with other carriers that have nonstops. in order for DL to be competitive in SYD, they must fly nonstop to the US.

AA also flew to Australia via HNL from DFW years ago but dropped the route against other carriers' nonstops from LAX.

Yes, you could add a couple secondary destinations using a 757 or 767 but there aren't that many cities that would justify such a service pattern. Further, DL will have stiff competition, at least from the Australian side, in any service expansion. Australia is a much bigger travel market than west Africa and has very strong carriers on both sides.

Also, SAL is really not a scissor hub since there are different destinations served - but there is still only one SAL flight to the US each day. SAL is just a common stopover point for each of the six flights/week - primarily needed to keep from leaving crews at their destination for anywhere from 4 days to a week. Also, JFK-DKR is being moved so DKR is not a hub either. I believe there will be just one ATL-DKR flight per day - on some days it will go on to CPT, on others to NBO. Again, it is just a stopover point.

DL will be in Australia and the S. Pacific but as I have said they will enter the market when the market is right and their "route development budget" is strong enough to sustain the start up costs that any airline would have to pay to break into the market. IN many ways, the Australia market will only get more competitive so the earlier would seem to be better but I'm not spending DL's money so they will move when they are ready.

And when DL enters the Australia market, they will be the only US six continent carrier since Pan Am and one a relatively few 6 continent carriers in the world.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 9942 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 7):
THIS WOULD MASSIVELY INCREASE YIELDS BETWEEN US MAINLAND DESTINATIONS AND HONOLULU.

 whistleblower ....actually it wont...and its been shown not to .....

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 9):
and even then, not necessarily a 777-200LR on the route (though, more than likely, it will be).

Besides eventually incoming B787's (whenever that is), only the B772LR would have the legs in the current DL fleet to do with with decent payload.

Given that VS is coming soon with their B77Ws and QF is increasing capacity with its A380's, I don't see DL starting Australia services anytime soon...IMHO



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 9889 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
Given that VS is coming soon with their B77Ws and QF is increasing capacity with its A380's, I don't see DL starting Australia services anytime soon...

Delta has publicly stated that they intend to serve Australia, no later than 2010.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 8325 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 9852 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
ANC (via AS c/s)/SEA/PDX/SFO/LAX/SLC/MSP/ATL - HNL - AKL/BNE/SYD/MEL/ADL/PER
3/4x weekly. Perhaps add CNS/OOL/DRW later on?

In today's market it has to be nonstop from the US mainland. ATL to SYD is the best bet, LAX to all Aussie cities with 787 nonstop wuld do great too.


User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 9841 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 16):
ATL to SYD is the best bet

With what aircraft, pray tell?


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 8325 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 9788 times:
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Quoting Flynavy (Reply 17):
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 16):
ATL to SYD is the best bet

With what aircraft, pray tell?

The same one that can take off from JNB, an altitude of 5500 feet or so, back to ATL nonstop, a 777-200LR.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 9655 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
Given that VS is coming soon with their B77Ws and QF is increasing capacity with its A380's, I don't see DL starting Australia services anytime soon...IMHO

I meant V.Australia and obviously not VS....

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 15):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
Given that VS is coming soon with their B77Ws and QF is increasing capacity with its A380's, I don't see DL starting Australia services anytime soon...

Delta has publicly stated that they intend to serve Australia, no later than 2010.

That's < 14 months from now....I'll believe it when I see it.. yes ...ain't happenin'.. no 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 9643 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 18):
The same one that can take off from JNB, an altitude of 5500 feet or so, back to ATL nonstop, a 777-200LR.

One problem: the 777-232LR, as configured for Delta, lacks auxiliary fuel tanks, making a profitable JFK-SYD and ATL-SYD nonstop impossible.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16857 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 9190 times:



Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
Is such a plan in the works for the South Pacific? Blanket the region with service on two fronts - nonstop between the major markets with daily 777 flights, and then use a scissors hub in HNL to serve the smaller markets with one-stop same plane or connections with smaller aircraft.

CO, AA, NWA all had HNL-Australia flights at one point. CO had the largest operation at HNL, they flew DC-10s and 747s from Honolulu to Auckland, Brisbane, Cairns, Melbourne, Sydney, Papette, Vancouver, LAX, SFO, IAH, NRT, GUM, Island Hopper, Manila etc.. CO even had nonstop JFK-HNL flights in the late '80s that continued on to Sydney, they operated from the Eastern Airlines terminal.

CO's HNL - South Pacific operation lasted 20+ years, the problem is that connecting in Honolulu is just not competitive with Qantas, Air New Zealand and UAL nonstops from the West Coast. The nonstops from the West were much higher yielding, while the flights through HNL to Australia and New Zealand were full of the flip flop and back pack crowd.

If your going to make flights to the South Pacific work you need two things, a nonstop from the Lower 48 and a large aircraft (bigger than a 777).



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5088 posts, RR: 55
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 9190 times:



Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
the use of scissor hubs in Dakar and Sal to serve a great many destinations, many with 757s.



Quoting Concordski (Reply 1):
hasn't been afrait to try the scissor hub method as mentioned with Dakar and newly announced Sal.



Quoting Frostbite (Reply 12):
A Sal-style scissor hub in HNL would be a tremendous boondoggle.

= SID is NOT a scissor hub.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineJettaKnight From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 9101 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 17):
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 16):
ATL to SYD is the best bet

With what aircraft, pray tell?

Even if DL had an aircraft capable of flying the route, isn't there also an issue with prohibitively high fees for overflying Mexico?

When the topic of CO launching IAH-SYD has come up, it has been suggested that it would be cheaper to remain in U.S. airspace until reaching the Pacific rather than paying the fees.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 8838 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 9):
as we will not be receiving them with auxiliary fuel tanks. Nor would we create a sub-fleet of LRs, ever. Period. End of discussion.



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 20):

One problem: the 777-232LR, as configured for Delta, lacks auxiliary fuel tanks, making a profitable JFK-SYD and ATL-SYD nonstop impossible.

On both points allow me to remind you that it's practically nothing to have them installed.

While none of the airlines (originally) took them with auxiliary tankage installed, nearly all took them with the provisions for such as standard.

So while "not any time soon" would certainly hold up as an accurate description, "never" is perhaps somewhat on the presumptive side.  Wink


25 HNL-Jack : That's correct. While the flights were generally full on both CO and UA, but the yields were terrible. QA pricing deliberatly keep fares low and it w
26 Ken4556 : In March, I flew from ATL-HNL on Delta and after spending a two days, flew on Hawaiian from HNL to SYD. I flew home a week later from SYD-HNL and conn
27 Flynavy : Won't disagree with you there, however our executives have stated that the auxiliary tanks will not be installed in our 77Ls. Given that, I'd say it'
28 WorldTraveler : since there are 6 more LRs on firm order, it is possible DL COULD order them if they intended to fly ATL-SYD. The reason DL is not interested in the
29 Papatango : I believe Delta has 8 more 777LR's on order 6 early 2009 and 2 2010.
30 Flynavy : We already know that. Add at least 60 days to the original delivery dates, however.
31 Viscount724 : Apart from several US carriers (AA/CO/UA/NW) that at one time operated via HNL to Australia (and other South Pacific destinations) and all dropped th
32 FoxBravo : I agree. Go on Flightaware.com and take a look at the routings for CO1 (IAH-HNL) and CO2 (HNL-IAH) over the past couple of weeks. Most days they do s
33 F27friend : QF operated 743s SYD-PPT-LAX on a regular basis carrying a good load SYD-LAX thereby avoiding the stopover in HNL. Fare rules at the time allowed QF t
34 FlyASAGuy2005 : The strike?
35 Flynavy : Yes.
36 Jfk777 : IF Delta flew a 77L Atlanta to Los Angeles airspace without landing that would be 5 and half hours plus14 hours to SYD. 19 and half hours, ok, a dire
37 LAXdude1023 : You might as well stop. ATL-SYD isnt happening. Comparing it to BOM purely because its long is a falacy. Most of the market to BOM comes from the Nor
38 Gemuser : Granted. But how many of them would DL realistically be able to capture from QF/AA & UA? QF/AA provide one stop service from east of the Mississippi
39 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Also, once QF gets some B787s and flies to DFW..it will clean up what's left of rest of the traffic from/to the east coast..
40 DeltaL1011man : not likely........the only two markets DL will fly to are MEL and SYD. both via LA and I think we will also see SEA-SYD on a 787 wont happen make it
41 REALDEAL : has anyone mentioned the NW744's ? Must be a few of these idle especilly in the next year or 3.
42 Gemuser : Might not have to wait that long. According to the latest charts I have seen the A380 can do it now, 500 pax, no cargo westbound, some eastbound. The
43 ETA Unknown : SYD - HNL in the past: AA, AC, CO, NW, NZ, UA. Forget it- didn't work profitably in the past and as stated above, HA has difficulty with West Coast fe
44 Jacobin777 : Now that might be quite interesting.... ...especially given they were going to launch AKL-DFW-AKL a few years ago. Granted its a shorter route, but D
45 RichardJF : Whats the chance of NZ flying AKL-IAH
46 PITrules : AA traded Australia route authorities with Pan Am in exchange for PAA's Caribbean network; it was a better fit for AA. Pan Am continued to serve the
47 San747 : As much as I like your enthusiasm, operationally, it is pretty much impossible to get from SAN to SYD with even the 777-200LR at full payload because
48 Jacobin777 : 1-ATL-SYD is a whopping 550nm more than SYD-DFW..that's a lot of Jet-A to be carrying a lot more revenue pax/freight left behind.. 2-SYD/DFW are "sup
49 PITrules : ATL is quite the super hub itself. And a link-up with Virgin Blue in SYD is exactly what I wrote... Hardly what I said.
50 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : My typo error...PER/ADL-HNL-USofA ..still not enough pax... ..hence why I specifically stated Also, while codesharing with Virgin Blue is the most vi
51 PITrules : If that's true today, its only a matter of time before that changes. I think in a couple years Perth will be ready for direct service to the US. Over
52 Gemuser : Where on earth did you get the idea that the A380 couldn't carry cargo westbound???? LAX-SYD is 6507 nm (GC), over that distance the A380 can carry i
53 Ben175 : I totally agree. A 3x weekly service to the US would make my day - it's something PER really needs. But, would the loads fill up all year round? If D
54 Notdownnlocked : To include the AA/QF/Oneworld fanboys et al throwing out blue and green yes/no smilies, I would challenge somebody/anybody/anyone here to show some co
55 Gemuser : Not happening! Unless Oz airlines get rights to operate domestically in the USA, which is also not happening! Gemuser
56 Ben175 : I definently see where you're coming from. Oh well, I can dream
57 MAH4546 : Back in 2001 or so, United was granted local traffic rights on SYD-MEL, although it was because of the Ansett shutdown.
58 PITrules : From one of your previous posts?..... Granted, the discussion (including mine) at that point was centered on DFW and/or ATL as a possibility. No carg
59 Sydscott : That's not true at all. If Delta wanted to setup a 100% Delta owned Australian subsidiary to fly domestic legs it could indeed do that without any ch
60 Gemuser : Sure, but it was a special case. So did just about any airline with an ICAO signatory issued airline licience. When 45% of your domestic airlift capa
61 Gemuser : True BUT 1) That's not what we were talking about, it was about domestic rights on an international flight 2) It is not automatic. DL would have to c
62 Gemuser : DFW-SYD about 30,000 lbs of cargo westbound with 500 pax & baggage, with statuary reserves, ie as I said before does not allow for adverse winds. Gra
63 Rwy04LGA : I proposed this months ago but was promptly shot down. Overflight of SAN due to Mexican airspace costs would add only a few miles to the great circle
64 DocLightning : But why not? They have a fleet of both 744's and 777's that can make the routes from LAX/SFO to SYD. Their competition is QF and UA. Sorry, but UA's
65 Jfk777 : Granted AA/QF can provide one-stop from the big east coast cities by putting people on AA transcon flights to LAX, but what about all the people who
66 LAXdude1023 : Most of the markets are so insignificant thats its not even worth discussing. Even if you combined them, you couldnt fill up an RJ to SYD. JNB isnt S
67 DiscoverCSG : Don't give anybody any ideas.
68 WorldTraveler : once again, where's the proof that there is any Mexico overflight cost issue? it happens all the time enroute from the western US to central America
69 HNL-Jack : I doubt you've flown the SYD route on UA. It is a good product and they're well established in the market. And, of course QA will now have the A-380
70 Rwy04LGA : Doesn't really matter regarding JFK-SYD as it's only 6 sm longer to overfly SAN than not (9950 v 9956). Would a 77L filled with BusinessElite seats w
71 LAXdude1023 : I have flown UA from LAX-SYD roundtrip. Theyre established, but its not what id call a good product. QF, TN, NZ, and FJ are much better.
72 Burnsie28 : Actually it was because of the government restrictions imposed on by NW but not on UA. I guess good things happen when the cousin of the UA lead in A
73 Airzim : ...or how stupid. I'm going with the latter.
74 Sydscott : Yes and no. The Australian subsidiary could use the same aircraft that just arrived from LAX to fly their transcon domestic flight. It would have to
75 HNL-Jack : I too have flown the route on QA and UA. I agree that the UA product is not up to the service levels offered by the other international carriers. How
76 DiscoverCSG : Wow... AeroCaribe is an A380 launch customer and has LAX-SYD rights. Who knew? F.Y.I. - QANTAS' code is QF.
77 EXAAUADL : There is no way that any airline will be flying HNL-ADL/PER, there is very little traffic between ADL/PER and the US and what there is is Oz originat
78 MCOAviationFan : DL will probably wait for the AS feed to mature before adding service to the South Pacific, especially Australia. Striking a deal with Virgin Blue wou
79 SunriseValley : How many seats are you talking about .? I think that about 220 would be ideal with at least 65% allocated to premium classes. Having said that , Wide
80 JettaKnight : Which is why I phrased my post in the form of a question. Perhaps it's worthy of a separate topic, but is there a way of confirming how the rates for
81 Gemuser : NO it couldn't! The aircraft that arrived on the DL flight would be regared as unairworthy by Oz standards. (As a QF aircraft arriving in LAX would b
82 DocLightning : Really? I can't speak to CO and DL, but even NW on my last TATL flight with them had PTV's and free wine. UA had neither. And the interior of the 744
83 Sydscott : Stop beating your head against a wall! I wouldn't say never on someone obtaining a new licence right now. The problem would more be them showing adeq
84 HNL-Jack : Flew a DL 763 from LAX to HNL a few months back and the interior looked like it had been through the wars. I too have been on some UA aircraft that l
85 RichardJF : Good route for HA. Even if HA struggles to get west coast feed for SYD flights as it appears. Australian routes still make sense imo.
86 LAXintl : I agree. As both a UA 1K and AA Plat Exec - United is not bad at all and frankly excellent when the new international premium product is used. Either
87 Gemuser : Maybe, but it is the law! Nor it is the only stupid example of the law that I and I'm sure most people can think of. Certification standards are nati
88 Gemuser : They would have to show that it is in the "public intrest" to allow them an examption to the Air Nav Act. I think that would be pretty hard right at
89 Notdownnlocked : Yes of course there is no strategy just the same there is no strategy of DL/NW in what.... Asia #1, Europe#1, Africa#1, North America#1, South Americ
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