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DL To Serve AGP, But No LIS? What Gives?  
User currently offlineQM001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5827 times:

Hi all,

Can someone tell me the reason why Portugal still does not feature DL services. How can it be that AGP, frankly a 2nd or 3rd tier Spanish city (No offense to our neighbors!), support a service and LIS cannot. I would imagine that a daily LIS ATL would do well.

Can someone enlighten me?

Thanks and kind regards,

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)


I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5777 times:
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I would also love to see Lisbon service. That is a country that I would like to add to my destination list. Although I have not been into Spain as of yet either.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineCokePopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1174 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5730 times:

DL To Serve AGP, But No LIS? What Gives?

The title suggest that Delta hasn't started service to AGP.
more like: Delta serves AGP, but Not LIS" what gives?

I believe Delta is choosing cities that have either little or no competition.
i.e. VLC, LOS, GOT, SID, ABV, ROB, SSG, and LAN. just to name a few.


User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5726 times:

like VCE and NCE its a popular holiday destination for US traveller during winter and I guess the percentage of premium customers especially to AGP is high due to the proximity to Marbella and its surroundings.
With sending a 757 to AGP they can't do anything wrong. TP and CO already serves the NYC-LIS route with daily and 5x weekly flights. Seems that the demand for more capacity is not existent.


User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 878 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

And DL' NCE flights are operated daily from JFK with a B763

User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2180 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5554 times:



Quoting AirGabon (Reply 4):
And DL' NCE flights are operated daily from JFK with a B763

True but DL's flights to Nice have been alive for an extremely long time (Leo Mullin era IIRC?). NCE has proven to be a good market for DL, although a 763 seems about the most it can take, we saw two years ago how NCE-ATL was a fiasco.

Quoting QM001 (Thread starter):
Can someone tell me the reason why Portugal still does not feature DL services. How can it be that AGP, frankly a 2nd or 3rd tier Spanish city (No offense to our neighbors!), support a service and LIS cannot. I would imagine that a daily LIS ATL would do well.

LIS already has TAP, CO and US. That's enough competition there and DL likes markets with little competition where it can command the market and get better yield. I wouldn't exclude LIS in the future, but it is part of a couple of destinations in Europe which overtime should see service (other examples being GVA, BHX, OSL, etc...).

Personally, I think for DL, AGP isn't that much of a risk. I have my doubts as to how VLC will perform though.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4864 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5523 times:
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Quoting Runway23 (Reply 5):
True but DL's flights to Nice have been alive for an extremely long time (Leo Mullin era IIRC?). NCE has proven to be a good market for DL

JFK-NCE was inherited from Pan Am actually with the PA route acquisition in 1991.

PA used to serve JFK-NCE in the early seventies with a 707, dropped it (amongst a bunch of Southern European destinations) in exchange for FRA with TWA in the mid-70s, and then restarted it again in the '80s when CEO Ed Acker wanted a way to get to his Riviera home. It was operated initially as a few-times-a-week 747 with onward service to FCO, but then eventually became a nonstop A310 route for PA.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8189 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5398 times:



Quoting Runway23 (Reply 5):
LIS already has TAP, CO and US.

And S4 plus an assortment of charter carriers during the Summer. However, DL used to be represented in the US-LIS market by it's alliance partner, CO. But now that CO is leaving, I wonder if we won't see DL enter that market in the future.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5226 times:

If I'm not mistaken, didn't DL operate JFK-LIS after inheriting the route from PA in the 90's?


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16810 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5183 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 8):
didn't DL operate JFK-LIS after inheriting the route from PA in the 90's?

DL did indeed serve Lisbon from JFK in the early 1990s with A310s, there are plenty of photos in the A-net database.


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Photo © Pedro Aragão




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Photo © Pedro Aragão



Here's the issue with Portugal, it's not as popular a tourist destination for Americans as Spain nor are there anywhere near as many Portugese tourists to the US as there are Spainards. Traffic between the US and Portugal is mostly VFR (Visiting friends and family), the largest Portugese community in the United States is in New Jersey. The Iron Bound section of the City of Newark being the center of that community, the other concentration of Portugese in the US is in Massachusetts and Rhode Island.

There are no Portugese communities in New York, which is why there are no flights from JFK to Portugal while EWR has two daily flights to Lisbon (TAP A340, CO 757) and one flight 3X's weekly to Porto (TAP A330). During the peak Summer months EWR-Lisbon goes to 4X's daily (two CO 757s, two TAP A330s) and EWR-Porto goes daily.

DL would be much better served by operating flights to Lisbon from BOS with a 757, TAP dropped BOS-LIS so DL would have that market all to themselves. DL will never be competitive from JFK to Portugal, as almost all the traffic is coming from New Jersey. And forget about ATL, that would never work, DL if interested would do quite well from BOS to LIS with a 757.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1772 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5102 times:



Quoting Runway23 (Reply 5):
Personally, I think for DL, AGP isn't that much of a risk. I have my doubts as to how VLC will perform though.

It's a bit of a gamble from DL, there are barely any cruise ships in VLC (an important source of pax for BCN and AGP) and the city is not particularly known as a tourist destination across the pond. Euro tourism to NYC will take an important drop next year because of the US$ strenghtening.

VLC sees the occasional Ford 737, maybe there's a steady influx of Ford personnel from the US which could use this flight instead of LH, IB or AF and can help bring up the yields.


User currently offlineCityofAthens From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

well, since we're all keen on the route history of various airlines here is another lovely shot from the database - don't you just love the photo album that is airliners. net?  Smile


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Photo © Urs Guettinger



User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8189 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4878 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Here's the issue with Portugal, it's not as popular a tourist destination for Americans as Spain nor are there anywhere near as many Portugese tourists to the US as there are Spainards. Traffic between the US and Portugal is mostly VFR (Visiting friends and family), the largest Portugese community in the United States is in New Jersey.

Traffic between the US and most any other city in the World is mostly VFR. That is why 70-80% of seats are generaly in economy class  Smile The important thing to note is that American tourism to both Spain and Portugal is growing significantly: http://current.newsweek.com/budgettr...hich_country_was_most_popular.html
Having said that, the traffic between LIS and the US has changed a lot. Most VFR traffic travels on charter carriers, especially SATA, and low fares offered by BA, NW/KLM, and AF. TP and CO traffic on the other hand have a very sizable high yield passenger percentage. There is no shortage of business ties between the Lisbon area and the US. Companies like NetJets, Microsoft, and many others have established European headquarters or a major presence right outside Lisbon (Oeiras). Over the last couple of years there has been a significant investment from Portuguese Construction and Energy companies in the US due to the strength of the Euro. Just as an example, Portugal's EDP is now the 3rd largest wind energy company in the US.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
DL would be much better served by operating flights to Lisbon from BOS with a 757, TAP dropped BOS-LIS so DL would have that market all to themselves.

Not to themselves. SATA operates from both BOS and PVD although, IIRC only BOS-LIS is non-stop. SATA has the VFR market cornered in New England. I don't think BOS-LIS would be a good venture for DL.


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4710 times:



Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
VLC sees the occasional Ford 737, maybe there's a steady influx of Ford personnel from the US which could use this flight instead of LH, IB or AF and can help bring up the yields.

Crisis is hitting carmakers at both sides of the pond big time as Ford plant at Valencia is laying off some of their staff and eliminating night shift, so I'm not sopositive about Ford levering DL's JFK-VLC.......

Anyway, filling less than 800 seats a week (4x 752) between JFK and VLC IMO is not such a hi risk task



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User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4602 times:



Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
It's a bit of a gamble from DL, there are barely any cruise ships in VLC (an important source of pax for BCN and AGP) and the city is not particularly known as a tourist destination across the pond. Euro tourism to NYC will take an important drop next year because of the US$ strenghtening.

Southern Europe has been particularly strong for DL, even when DL focused little attention on NYC int'l flying. Most of the secondary European destinations have little competition but are very desirable places to be for a good part of the year.

AGP has done swimmingly well for DL which is why you are seeing more regional Spain. US carriers have an advantage for that type of market because of the 757.

With all due respect, Portugal is one of the smallest and least wealthy countries of western Europe. The Portuguese influence on the US is far smaller than in other parts of the world such as former colonies Brasil and those in Africa.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7186 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4580 times:
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As of now DL still codeshares with CO, and CO does have year round 2x daily to LIS.

Look for DL to add a LIS flight once CO changes membership.

 twocents 


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4864 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4418 times:
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Quoting FXramper (Reply 15):
As of now DL still codeshares with CO, and CO does have year round 2x daily to LIS.

DL does not codeshare with CO on any transatlantic route, and vice versa. CO's EWR-LIS is just a SkyTeam option for Delta flyers...


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3928 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3152 times:



Quoting QM001 (Thread starter):
How can it be that AGP, frankly a 2nd or 3rd tier Spanish city (No offense to our neighbors!), support a service and LIS cannot. I would imagine that a daily LIS ATL would do well.

I have been studying the US for over a year and have yet to meet a US person under the age of 30 who HAS NOT lived at least 6 months in Spain, for some reason they seem to have a fascination with that place (OK, it is an exaggeration, but you get my drift). Frankly, with so many nicer places to visit in Europe I don't get it, but that is a fact.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
daily flights to Lisbon (TAP A340

I thought they dropped the A340 flights a long time ago? The two times I flew it it was an A310 (two winters ago) and then an A330 (this summer).

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 12):
although, IIRC only BOS-LIS is non-stop.

Doesn't BOS-LIS have a stopover somewhere in the Azores?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineOcracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3037 times:



Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
It's a bit of a gamble from DL, there are barely any cruise ships in VLC (an important source of pax for BCN and AGP) and the city is not particularly known as a tourist destination across the pond.

I know about VLC. Been there 5 or 6 times now. Spent 3 months there years ago at a Spanish school (have forgotten most of it now), and the rest of the time during Las Fallas.....(and I can't really remember that either, if you know what I mean!)

As said, my Spanish isn't very good any more, but I was trying to read the newspaper in Valencia about this announcement, and I think I read that the Valencia area received 58,000 North American visitors this past year. Did I read that correctly?
If true, that equals 159 passengers a day. If DL can get most of the US passengers, and get a percentage of the Mexican, Canadian, and Central American passengers, I think they can pull it off 4 times a week. Throw in things like the America Cup, all the second home condos going up in Benidorm, Las Fallas, and simple pent up demand, and it just might work. I hope so.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8189 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2866 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 14):
ith all due respect, Portugal is one of the smallest and least wealthy countries of western Europe. The Portuguese influence on the US is far smaller than in other parts of the world such as former colonies Brasil and those in Africa.

True, but that's of little relevance these days because of alliances and hubs. The only relevant factors are the airline itself and it's hub. The majority of TP's passengers do not end or begin their trip in LIS. I'd be curious to see what percentage of US's Summer traffic is O&D to LIS. Obviously, my guess is that CO is mostly O&D because they would have very little feed at LIS. Nevertheless, and as I pointed out about, the economic ties between Portugal and the US have grown in the past few years.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 17):
Doesn't BOS-LIS have a stopover somewhere in the Azores?

In the Winter it is BOS-PDL-LIS but in the Summer there are 2 flights, one of which is a non-stop.


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2841 times:



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 17):
I have been studying the US for over a year and have yet to meet a US person under the age of 30 who HAS NOT lived at least 6 months in Spain, for some reason they seem to have a fascination with that place (OK, it is an exaggeration, but you get my drift). Frankly, with so many nicer places to visit in Europe I don't get it, but that is a fact.

There is a big diference between "visiting" as a tourist for a short vacation and "living" for at least 6 months, ther might be nicer places to visit but not sure about nicer places in Europe to spend 6 months and specially for youngsters. One thing young americans love is the "lawless" feeling they get in Spain during public celebrations as "Las Fallas" or "San Fermin".

PS: just in case I'm not a Spanish citizen

Quoting Ocracoke (Reply 18):
I read that the Valencia area received 58,000 North American visitors this past year. Did I read that correctly?

I think it also includes people flying into ALC, but anyway it's a good figure and not even counting the ones who drive from Madrid or Barcelona (3 hrs away).



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User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1772 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2841 times:



Quoting Ocracoke (Reply 18):
If true, that equals 159 passengers a day. If DL can get most of the US passengers, and get a percentage of the Mexican, Canadian, and Central American passengers, I think they can pull it off 4 times a week. Throw in things like the America Cup, all the second home condos going up in Benidorm, Las Fallas, and simple pent up demand, and it just might work. I hope so.

I'm all for DL to keep services as that will most likely shave a few hours from my 3/4 yearly flights to the NY area but you can't really rely on those statistics.

How many of those tourists were just on a daytrip from MAD or BCN? How many of them were centered just in the America's cup or F1 races? I have the feeling tourism alone won't get this flight going for long.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8189 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2760 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 20):
There is a big diference between "visiting" as a tourist for a short vacation and "living" for at least 6 months, ther might be nicer places to visit but not sure about nicer places in Europe to spend 6 months and specially for youngsters. One thing young americans love is the "lawless" feeling they get in Spain during public celebrations as "Las Fallas" or "San Fermin".

For an American anywhere you can buy a beer without being treated like a criminal is considered lawless  Smile All jokes aside, you also have to consider that Spanish is the US's second language and although there are plenty of Spanish speaking countries close by, the ability to practice your "second language", take in some European culture, and do it so in a safe and developed nation is very appealing to American High School and College students and their families.


User currently onlineGte439u From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2738 times:



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 17):
I have been studying the US for over a year and have yet to meet a US person under the age of 30 who HAS NOT lived at least 6 months in Spain, for some reason they seem to have a fascination with that place (OK, it is an exaggeration, but you get my drift). Frankly, with so many nicer places to visit in Europe I don't get it, but that is a fact.

Haha! Yes, North Americans do have a fascination with Spain. Because of the growing importance of the Spanish language in the Americas, especially, the United States, many students want to improve their language skills beyond the abysmal secondary school language levels. For many, a study abroad in Spain suits their needs because there is still a perception that Latin America is a dangerous place to study and travel.

And, no, I am not saying that DL's Spain services are going to be supported by students. I only want to shed light on some of the reasons for Spain's popularity.


User currently offlineJigarciar From Colombia, joined May 2005, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Not saying that LIS isn't a fascinating destination, AGP has proved to have an outstanding development as a special touristic destination, considering not only AGP but its surrounding Marbella, Torremolinos, Benalmadena, etc. Also, not only those marvelous Mediterranean places should be taken into account, because we must talk about other Andalusian cities such as Seville, Cordoba and Granada, which are easily reachable from Malaga.

Also, as many others have already said, DL faces no direct competition not only to AGP, but to the other cities I've mentioned, with very important tourist feeds.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32597 posts, RR: 72
Reply 25, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2471 times:



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 17):

I have been studying the US for over a year and have yet to meet a US person under the age of 30 who HAS NOT lived at least 6 months in Spain, for some reason they seem to have a fascination with that place (OK, it is an exaggeration, but you get my drift). Frankly, with so many nicer places to visit in Europe I don't get it, but that is a fact.

A significant amount of educated Americans speak Spanish (whether or not they speak it well is up to debate), so Spain is a natural place to go.



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