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FAA To Downgrade Israel's Aviation Safety Ranking  
User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2807 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5805 times:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3625774,00.html

"(...) The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), deemed the authority on flight standards throughout the Western world, intends to lower the safety ranking given to Ben Gurion International Airport from level one to level two, a category usually prevalent among third world countries. (...)

(...)

The change in category means Ben Gurion will be deemed less safe, and as a result American airlines will be banned from making changes in flight schedules or increasing the amount of flights between the countries, which will in all probability lead to a hike in airfare.

(...)




This is the result of the FAA inspection last summer...

It is interesting to have a look on the following thread and to read all the bright remarks that were posted at the time by participants who, in retrospect, look a little bit overconfident about themselves and about Israel's civil aviation standards...:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/4067402


I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1569 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5790 times:

I'm a bit surprised, but then again, the ATC at Ben-Gurion is certainly lacking. Wasn't there a near-crash there a few months ago?


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5769 times:

Will this not hurt LY more than US carriers.

What does this do to their flights to multiple US cities and what about new entrants luke US.


User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5227 times:



Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
Wasn't there a near-crash there a few months ago?

Yes, there were several incidents of this kind over the last few years, two of them were heavily reported in the news.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950378.html

"Turkish Airlines jet and Israir plane in near collision at Ben-Gurion

[...]

"An initial inquiry points to misjudgment on the part of the air traffic controller," said the IAA. "The controller immediately realized his mistake, and took the necessary steps in order to bring both planes in safely."

[...]"


According to other reports, the control tower was notified of the immediate danger by the pilot of an El Al plane waiting to take off.

In February 2007, an Iberia pilot made a weird direction change and his Airbus almost collided with an El Al 767 which was also preparing to land.

There were over the years many incidents and at least two reports with "dire" results... A first report was conducted in...1993 already, but not a single recommandation was ever implemented. Another report came out after the IB/LY incident, but again, nothing was done.

Also, a safety drill was carried out last June simulating a plane land crashing. One of El Al's old 747s (still in full livery...) was used for that purpose. The exercize was a terrible failure... and one did not need to read this in the newspaper...it was enough just to see what remained of the El Al 747...



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128473

"Israel Tries to Convince US of Airport Safety

[...]

Not Only Prestige
A decision to lower Israel’s aviation rating would harm not only Israel’s prestige, but also its pockets. The airlines’ insurance premiums would rise, leading directly to higher airfares – or to the cancellation of routes to Israel. Another possibility is that the airlines will require special security precautions. In addition, Israeli airlines will not be allowed to add American destinations.

[...]"


- As if the fares were not already high enough for flights to Israel...

In any case, a very shameful situation.



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9546 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

I only see mention of lowering the safety ranking of one airport, not of "Israel's aviation". Have I missed something?

User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5181 times:



Quoting TodaReisinger (Thread starter):
The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), deemed the authority on flight standards throughout the Western world,

This nonsense again?

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 2):
Will this not hurt LY more than US carriers.

Won't change a thing.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Thread starter):
This is the result of the FAA inspection

Once again the FAA can stay home and fix their own system before tinkering with another countrys.

There is no reason to talk about this issue any deeper than this, this topic has been beaten to death. It's utter nonsense.



AIRLINERS.NET MODERATORS SUCK MOOSE DICK!!!!
User currently offlineCastropRauxel From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5041 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 4):
I only see mention of lowering the safety ranking of one airport, not of "Israel's aviation". Have I missed something?

No, that's correct. it's only regarding TLV. but the thing is, this is the only international airport apart from VDA, which is very southern, unequipped, and can't handle the airlines TLV can.

This is what happens when you build an airport around a shopping mall.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9546 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4988 times:



Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 6):
but the thing is, this is the only international airport apart from VDA, which is very southern, unequipped, and can't handle the airlines TLV can.

OK, but Israeli airlines and airways/area control haven't been downgraded, for example. I just think I'd have been more specific in the thread title.  Smile


User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4853 times:



Quoting TodaReisinger (Thread starter):
The change in category means Ben Gurion will be deemed less safe, and as a result American airlines will be banned from making changes in flight schedules or increasing the amount of flights between the countries, which will in all probability lead to a hike in airfare.

So does this mean US won't be able to start PHL-TLV and DL won't be able to start another JFK-TLV 4x even though they've already announced service?



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 3072 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4770 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 6):
This is what happens when you build an airport around a shopping mall.

Others have done this; they just slap on a Customs office and call it Termnal 2  Wink



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineCastropRauxel From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4229 times:



Quoting Evan767 (Reply 8):
So does this mean US won't be able to start PHL-TLV and DL won't be able to start another JFK-TLV 4x even though they've already announced service?

No, that should be fine as it was already approved.


User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4132 times:



Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 6):
This is what happens when you build an airport around a shopping mall.

The problems are much older than the new terminal. But instead of improving an already bad situation, Terminal 3 has added some other problems...

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 5):
Won't change a thing.

Maybe you have a link for this information?

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 5):
There is no reason to talk about this issue any deeper than this, this topic has been beaten to death. It's utter nonsense.

Why do you talk about it, then?



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineLY772 From Israel, joined Aug 2001, 1340 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

I've actually heard that the "downgrade" will cause El Al to fly less times to it's US destinations (LAX,EWR,JFK) therefore the ticket prices will go up.

User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4001 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 4):
I only see mention of lowering the safety ranking of one airport, not of "Israel's aviation". Have I missed something?

Yes, you are.
Despite of everything that was said here about TLV (which is true for itself), this inspection was on the Civil Aviation Authority.

The FAA checked their ability to supervise what they suppose to supervise (general safety, pilot skills, maintenance level of the aircrafts that landing in Israel etc) and found that all of this are in very poor conditions (and this is the understatement of the year).
It maybe shocked the FAA, it shouldn't shook anybody in Israel. Its condition is well known is Israel and nobody does anything to change it (so maybe if we get a "kick" in the a$$ and new transportation minister in February, something good will come out of this).

This inspection had nothing to do specific with TLV. They didn't check air space, SIDs, STARs, ATC, control tower location etc so it is about "Israel's aviation" and not just one airport.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9546 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3940 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 13):
Yes, you are.

I still don't see it. We can all see the issues mentioned but, apart from TLV, what else has been downgraded?


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3816 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 14):
I still don't see it. We can all see the issues mentioned but, apart from TLV, what else has been downgraded?

Nothing had been downgraded officially, YET!!!

The report in YNET (the link at the first post) is not accurate. It talks only about TLV but as I said it was not in the inspection but the Civil Aviation Authority was.

Such a declaration (as the report does say) will freeze the current situation. El Al (for example) won't be able to open new routes or change aircrafts that flies to the US and they can be under stricter inspection in the US.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3763 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 13):
This inspection had nothing to do specific with TLV. They didn't check air space, SIDs, STARs, ATC, control tower location etc so it is about "Israel's aviation" and not just one airport.

So what did they do?

Quoting Avi (Reply 15):
Such a declaration (as the report does say) will freeze the current situation. El Al (for example) won't be able to open new routes or change aircrafts that flies to the US and they can be under stricter inspection in the US.

Maybe they shoud stop flying to the U.S. period. Or an even better idea no flights between the two country's at all! That would make great economic sense.



AIRLINERS.NET MODERATORS SUCK MOOSE DICK!!!!
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3688 times:



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 16):
So what did they do?

As I said in reply 13, they checked if the Civil Aviation Authority in Israel can do its job and found out that they can't (they don't have money, people, tools, motivation or what ever you want).



Long live the B747
User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days ago) and read 3568 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 15):
Nothing had been downgraded officially, YET!!!

And that's why the title of the thread is "FAA to downgrade......."

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 16):
So what did they do?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1002040.html

The link to this July 16 2008 Haaretz article has been posted already several times (in the title post of this thread, too), and some passages of said article quoted...... But here it is again:


"[...]

The FAA inspection will last four days and examine the flight-safety performance of the Civil Aviation Authority, one Israeli airline, and Ben-Gurion International Airport.

The Civil Aviation Authority will be the main focus. Inspectors will see if the authority appropriately regulates flight safety, including planes' technical levels, their maintenance and pilots' skills
. The FAA hopes to avoid accidents at U.S. airports involving Israeli airlines. If the inspectors find local safety levels to be inadequate, the FAA could limit or altogether block landings of Israeli airlines in the United States.

[...]"


This is a small passage, but it's worth reading the whole article to understand the issue.



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days ago) and read 3543 times:

"the FAA could limit or altogether block landings of Israeli airlines in the United States".

Nice to see the FAA taking care of things here at home, because lord knows all our aiports, airlines, atc, and airspace are in top shape. And most of all SAFE! sarcastic  What nonsense.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 18):
The link to this July 16 2008 Haaretz article has been posted already several times (in the title post of this thread, too),

Yes and its getting old and moldy.

Quoting Avi (Reply 17):
As I said in reply 13,

Not at all what I ment but nevermind.



AIRLINERS.NET MODERATORS SUCK MOOSE DICK!!!!
User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3511 times:



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 19):
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 18):
The link to this July 16 2008 Haaretz article has been posted already several times (in the title post of this thread, too),

Yes and its getting old and moldy.

Old and moldy... but it is the answer to your own question:




Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 16):
So what did they do?



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 18):
The link to this July 16 2008 Haaretz article has been posted already several times (in the title post of this thread, too), and some passages of said article quoted...... But here it is again:


"[...]

The FAA inspection will last four days and examine the flight-safety performance of the Civil Aviation Authority, one Israeli airline, and Ben-Gurion International Airport.

The Civil Aviation Authority will be the main focus. Inspectors will see if the authority appropriately regulates flight safety, including planes' technical levels, their maintenance and pilots' skills. The FAA hopes to avoid accidents at U.S. airports involving Israeli airlines. If the inspectors find local safety levels to be inadequate, the FAA could limit or altogether block landings of Israeli airlines in the United States.

[...]"

So...between the article and the question, I wonder what is really "old and moldy"...



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3476 times:



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 20):
Old and moldy... but it is the answer to your own question:

No it was'nt but keep being hardheaded  banghead 

And by the way the article is writtin by the worst, and most inaccurate newspaper in Israel.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 20):
So...between the article and the question, I wonder what is really "old and moldy"...

The whole topic!!!! Which the OP likes to revisit every month or so. old 



AIRLINERS.NET MODERATORS SUCK MOOSE DICK!!!!
User currently offlineOvrpowrd727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3435 times:

just a side question, how come the LY aircraft at JFK always have Port Authority security from when the plane arrives all the way to when the aircraft departs??

User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3410 times:



Quoting Ovrpowrd727 (Reply 22):
just a side question, how come the LY aircraft at JFK always have Port Authority security from when the plane arrives all the way to when the aircraft departs??



LY gets the "anti terror" treatment all over the world, in NY its a police car, in FRA its a APC but all for the same reason.



AIRLINERS.NET MODERATORS SUCK MOOSE DICK!!!!
User currently offlineOvrpowrd727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3396 times:

i see, i didn't know that this was for other cities as well

User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3254 times:



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 21):
Old and moldy... but it is the answer to your own question:

No it was'nt but keep being hardheaded

Sure it was:

You asked "What did they [the FAA] do?":

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 16):
So what did they do?

And the first lines of the article explain what the FAA did, thus answering your question:

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 20):
The FAA inspection will last four days and examine the flight-safety performance of the Civil Aviation Authority, one Israeli airline, and Ben-Gurion International Airport.

The Civil Aviation Authority will be the main focus. Inspectors will see if the authority appropriately regulates flight safety, including planes' technical levels, their maintenance and pilots' skills
.

I don't like Haaretz at all, but this article explains what the FAA did in Israel last summer. Now if you have any link to a different version of events, please post it.

Quoting Ovrpowrd727 (Reply 24):
i see, i didn't know that this was for other cities as well

These are local measures. In Switzerland, all flights from/to Israel (El Al and any other airline) as well as flights from/to the US are protected on the ground by some kind of presence. It used to be armed vehicles, but now in GVA I see only a police car.



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
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