Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 1446 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1804 times:
Quoting Bravo1Six (Reply 5): The order is also a milestone as it means a total of 1,001 Dash 8s ordered.
I may be wrong, but I believe the -8 (all versions) is the first turbo-prop airliner to go over 1,000 sales. The ATR family I believe vis about 850, the F-27 (Fokker and Fairchild) about 500 or so, and the Viscount was 441.
In fact, if you discount the 1,000 or so C-54/R5D versions of the DC-4 built during WW2, of which many found their way into civilian service, the -8 is the best selling propliner since the DC-3. DC-6 was around 700, and DC-7 somewhat over 300. For the Connie family, obviously my favourite, there were over 800 built.
So Dash-8 trumps them all. Way to go de Havilland !
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 9410 posts, RR: 7 Reply 7, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1764 times:
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6): In fact, if you discount the 1,000 or so C-54/R5D versions of the DC-4 built during WW2, of which many found their way into civilian service, the -8 is the best selling propliner since the DC-3. DC-6 was around 700, and DC-7 somewhat over 300. For the Connie family, obviously my favourite, there were over 800 built.
You mean the best-selling propliner since the ConvairLiner. 1086 ConvairLiners were built (all models). I think the DC-6 total (all models) was 665.
Another key factor for the selection of the Q400 aircraft is its exceptional performance in terms of climb rate, single-engine ceiling and a higher level of take-off weight, resulting in increased payload from hot and high elevation airfields. The new aircraft has a passenger seat capacity of 78 in contrast to the 50-seater Fokker aircraft currently in use by Ethiopian. The airline also uses the B737-700 equipment for certain of its domestic flight operations as required.
Speaking about the selection of the new aircraft, Mr. Girma Wake, the Chief Executive Officer of Ethiopian Airlines further explained that, “Because of the 360-knot speed, low operating costs and favorable environmental credentials of the Q400 NextGen aircraft, Ethiopian Airlines will remain competitive and be in a position to provide adequate and a high standard of quality service to its customers.”
Congratulations Ethiopian. Wish I were able to see it sooner, I'll be in Addis this December...TR to follow shortly after
Airbuske From Kenya, joined Jun 2007, 326 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1195 times:
Quoting Cf105Arrow (Reply 12): Why do you feel that they should have gone for the ATR 72 500-600?
Runways in Africa are not the best out there and I rather not be flying on a bird whose landing gear seems to be failing. ATR already has a strong presence in Africa and has an aircraft that has proven its ability to operate efficiently and safely in hot and high conditions.
The ATR72-500/600 has significantly lower fuel burn compared to the Q400 but at the same time is significantly slower. With current fuel prices, both airplanes might be equally competitive in terms of economics.
To me it just makes more sense to choose ATR because of the relative ease finding experienced mechanics who have worked on the type before, ease of getting customer support and having quick access to spares.
All that said, ET is known for their outstanding maintenance so I'm sure they will be able to keep their Q400 fleet flying safe and healthy.
CF105Arrow From Canada, joined Oct 2007, 282 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1082 times:
Quoting Airbuske (Reply 13): Runways in Africa are not the best out there and I rather not be flying on a bird whose landing gear seems to be failing. ATR already has a strong presence in Africa and has an aircraft that has proven its ability to operate efficiently and safely in hot and high conditions.
The ATR72-500/600 has significantly lower fuel burn compared to the Q400 but at the same time is significantly slower. With current fuel prices, both airplanes might be equally competitive in terms of economics.
To me it just makes more sense to choose ATR because of the relative ease finding experienced mechanics who have worked on the type before, ease of getting customer support and having quick access to spares.
All that said, ET is known for their outstanding maintenance so I'm sure they will be able to keep their Q400 fleet flying safe and healthy.
Threepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1602 posts, RR: 6 Reply 16, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1002 times:
Airbuske, you make some valid points, but if I may address some of your concerns:
Quoting Airbuske (Reply 13):
Runways in Africa are not the best out there and I rather not be flying on a bird whose landing gear seems to be failing.
The gear failures had nothing to with a lack of being robust. The DHC-8 line is known for its rugged construction. There were a couple of main gear failures attributed to corrosion and several high-profile ones blamed on incorrect maintenance/inspection procedures. The final straw in the SAS series of accidents was due to a part inadvertently left inside the gear assembly. All incidents occurred while landing on paved runways.
Quoting Airbuske (Reply 13): ATR already has a strong presence in Africa and has an aircraft that has proven its ability to operate efficiently and safely in hot and high conditions.
While not discounting the performance of the ATR in any way, I must mention the Dash has an equal reputation and has flown extensively on every continent. Ethiopian executives must be comfortable with the stated performance specs in high-density-altitude conditions.
Quoting Airbuske (Reply 13): To me it just makes more sense to choose ATR because of the relative ease finding experienced mechanics who have worked on the type before, ease of getting customer support and having quick access to spares.
There will be equal access to hundreds of mechanics with global Dash experience in field conditions. Bombardier currently supports its products on all corners of the globe - I wouldn't imagine Ethiopian bases will pose a significant challenge to support.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
R2rho From France, joined Feb 2007, 789 posts, RR: 7 Reply 17, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 978 times:
There's a reason that Airbus sent the A380 to Addis Abbeba for hot&high testing... I guess Ethiopian can really use the extra power of the Q400 and that could have been one of the reasons to choose it over the ATR.
Prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 4973 posts, RR: 57 Reply 18, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 956 times:
Quoting Airbuske (Reply 10): I really like the Q400's but I think they should have gone with ATR 72-500/600.
The Q400 is a lot more powerful, faster and longer ranged plane. The ATR-72 is not a head on competitor.
They just happen to share roughly the same seating capacity.
If you need the range of the Q400, and you can take advantage of its speed, then the Q400 is the plane of coise.
If you run a short legged "milk route", then the ATR-72 will do it just as well, and it will do it cheaper.
The ATR-82 (slight stretch, new wing, much more powerful engines) would have been an almost head on Q400 competitor. But that project was cancelled in 1996.
Incidentally the ATR-82 and the Q400 would have had exactly the same seating capacity, 78 seats at 30" pitch. But that would have made the ATR an almost entirely new plane.
The same way as the Q400 is mostly a new plane compared to the -100, -200, -300. They share the fuselage diameter and very little else.
The B707 and the B757 may have more in common that the Dash-8-300 and the -Q400. Therefore the 1,000+ Dash-8 milestone has to be taken with a grain of salt. It does mean 1,000+ twin turboprop airliners with retractable landing gear from that house, but that's all, (the -7 had four engines, and the -6 (Twin Otter) had fixed gear).
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
I guess it just bottles down to a matter of opinion. I'm in no way slagging off the Q400. I think she's a phenomenal aircraft and I'm hoping to one day get a chance to fly her (preferably on PD). ET's staff are very capable so maintaining their Q400 fleet shouldn't be a problem.
But to me, because of economies of scale, I think the new generation ATR72's would have been a 'safer' bet (in East Africa). But with Arik Air having placed orders for Q400's and SA Express flying a bunch of Q300's and Q400's, anything could change.
ETforlife From United States, joined Jan 2008, 17 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 931 times:
Quoting Cchan (Reply 11): What competition do they have in the domestic market?
Ethiopian Airlines has no domestic competition. I think that comment was made so that Ethiopian Airlines as a whole can provide better service. The Fokker F-50s are getting old, and need replacement.
"The Q400 NextGen turboprop aircraft has an excellent range and payload capability which will permit Ethiopian the flexibility to deploy the equipment on its domestic routes within Ethiopia as well as on its regional routes ranging up to 1,000 nautical miles or 1,850 km. from Addis Ababa."
-from the press release
Ethiopian destinations 1000 miles from Addis Ababa includes Nairobi, Jeddah, Khartoum, Kilmanjaro, Dar es Salaam, Hargeisa, and Djibouti (I might have missed one or two). ET can deploy the Q400 on some of these routes, freeing up their 737-700s for more expansion in Africa & the Middle East
ETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1939 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 734 times:
Quoting Airbuske (Reply 19): I guess it just bottles down to a matter of opinion. I'm in no way slagging off the Q400. I think she's a phenomenal aircraft and I'm hoping to one day get a chance to fly her (preferably on PD). ET's staff are very capable so maintaining their Q400 fleet shouldn't be a problem.
But to me, because of economies of scale, I think the new generation ATR72's would have been a 'safer' bet (in East Africa). But with Arik Air having placed orders for Q400's and SA Express flying a bunch of Q300's and Q400's, anything could change.
Probably just that - matter of opinion. The specs say otherwise. Greater range, better performance, higher speed, better comfort (ATRs known for vibrations, being louder). Even if ATR consumes a lot less fuel, what good is it if it under performs and customers do not want to fly in it? The similarities, as it appears, end at the number of seats. Financing would also be part of the deal, as well as availability of the ATR72-600, which may compare to the Q400s, but not set until mid-2010.
ET used to have two ATR-42, and when it came to adding to their domestic fleet in the 90s, they ended up going with Fokker. Perhaps not fully satisfied with the ATRs? Those ATRs may have also been the types that lasted the shortest period of time with the airline in most recent decades.
Quoting ETforlife (Reply 20): ethiopian destinations 1000 miles from Addis Ababa includes Nairobi, Jeddah, Khartoum, Kilmanjaro, Dar es Salaam, Hargeisa, and Djibouti (I might have missed one or two). ET can deploy the Q400 on some of these routes, freeing up their 737-700s for more expansion in Africa & the Middle East
It should be interesting to see where the Q400s will be deployed to outside of Ethiopia. The Fokkers only made it as far out as Juba, Sana'a, Djibouti and Hargeisa.
Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 1446 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 523 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7): Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6):
In fact, if you discount the 1,000 or so C-54/R5D versions of the DC-4 built during WW2, of which many found their way into civilian service, the -8 is the best selling propliner since the DC-3. DC-6 was around 700, and DC-7 somewhat over 300. For the Connie family, obviously my favourite, there were over 800 built.
You mean the best-selling propliner since the ConvairLiner. 1086 ConvairLiners were built (all models). I think the DC-6 total (all models) was 665.
My bad....completely forgot about the ConvairLiner. So the DASH-8 still has a way to go, but I am pretty certain it will get there.
RJNUT From United States, joined Dec 1999, 954 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 512 times:
Quoting ETforlife (Reply 20):
"The Q400 NextGen turboprop aircraft has an excellent range and payload capability which will permit Ethiopian the flexibility to deploy the equipment on its domestic routes within Ethiopia as well as on its regional routes ranging up to 1,000 nautical miles or 1,850 km. from Addis Ababa."
-from the press release
Have they accounted for Addis' high elevation that could create weight penalties at certain times??
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