Thenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1979 posts, RR: 11 Posted (4 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8813 times:
Quick question about AF ops in Canada.
AF currently serve YYZ daily and YUL double daily in winter and triple daily in summer. Here is my question:
How come YYZ gets A343 and B744 all year long, with a business and economy configuration (Business, premium economy (alize) and economy on B744), and YUL gets at least 1 B772 in summer and 1 B77W in winter, both of which have First class.
Isnt YYZ a bigger premium class market than YUL? How come AF doesn't send First class to YYZ?
Thenoflyzone
[Edited 2008-11-20 12:47:34]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
Heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 946 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8789 times:
just taking a guess, I think it might be the YYZ market is more tourists, whilst YUL with it's larger French population has buisness traffic to and from.
Flyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4936 posts, RR: 53 Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8789 times:
Simply because neither Montreal or Toronto are large premium markets.
Air France's planes are in a "volume " configuration unlike Lufthansa which puts 221 in an A330 (AC puts 265). AF still puts 280 on an A340 vs LH at 221.
Air France benefits from three things
1.) the Paris local market which greatly favors Montreal for obvious reasons
2.) The unique ODs offered beyond Paris, ALG/BEY/TUN/CMN are huge market sizes from montreal in which AF is the only to offer convenient day time connections to these places
3.) Low competition. Air Canada only has 5 daily non-stops to Montreal to the Atlantic vs over 20 from Toronto..
Just like KL is more dominant in YYZ than AF, its mostly about the attributes of the beyonds of the hubs and the qualitative aspect of the termination cities on both ends.
Runway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2043 posts, RR: 39 Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8726 times:
Quoting Thenoflyzone (Thread starter): How come YYZ gets A343 and B744 all year long, with a business and economy configuration (Business, premium economy (alize) and economy on B744), and YUL gets at least 1 B772 in summer and 1 B77W in winter, both of which have First class.
There isn't any "Alize" on those flights, it is the same tempo product albeit with PTVs and extra legroom. Seats can be reserved by full-fare customers, flying blue and skyteam elites. Alize is only available on COI (Caribbean Indian Ocean) routes from Orly.
YUL has strong ties to AF, because of language, the French community in Montreal and connecting options. Because of the connections, it actually makes First class somewhat warranted, although AF does have some trouble filling up YUL upfront when compared with other North American cities, the same can be applied to KLM who fly their MD-11s to YUL. KLM's MD11 fleet has the lowest count of WBC seats in their fleet.
Gr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2993 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8351 times:
Quoting Heathrow (Reply 1): I think it might be the YYZ market is more tourists,
There is a huge S.Asian and S.E Asian population in Toronto....AF flies to a lot of cities in that part of the world and is popular with immigrants flying back and forth between Canada and countries like India.....
UPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7793 times:
Quoting Thenoflyzone (Thread starter): Isnt YYZ a bigger premium class market than YUL? How come AF doesn't send First class to YYZ?
It's a matter of ties between Quebec and France, there are bussines and goverment ties on both sides that warrant large premium traffic on YUL-CDG for AF to send their hi-J 3-class 77W to YUL.
As a matter of fact YUL is planned to be the first or second (afer JFK) A380 station for AF.
Heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 946 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6748 times:
Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 4):
There is a huge S.Asian and S.E Asian population in Toronto....AF flies to a lot of cities in that part of the world and is popular with immigrants flying back and forth between Canada and countries like India.....
Yes, but with flights from KE, CX, 9W, AI, PK and then AC, I find most of them go that way round. Plus we just had EK introduced with EY a while before that, so that seemed to be a popular asia connecter too.
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2993 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5879 times:
Quoting Heathrow (Reply 6): Yes, but with flights from KE, CX, 9W, AI, PK and then AC, I find most of them go that way round. Plus we just had EK introduced with EY a while before that, so that seemed to be a popular asia connecter too.
Well, that may be....just pointing out that AF is one of the more popular choices for Indian origin people travelling from YYZ to India.....probably because they almost always offer very good fares....
Heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 946 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5612 times:
Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 7):
Well, that may be....just pointing out that AF is one of the more popular choices for Indian origin people travelling from YYZ to India.....probably because they almost always offer very good fares....
Yes. They also tend to choose BA for that same reason as well.
Threepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2093 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5331 times:
Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9): Equally true.....BA, AF and LH are the prime choices among the European carriers providing flights to India from YYZ.....AZ also quite popular.....
How many other European carriers provide service to India from Toronto?
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Heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 946 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5271 times:
Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9): Equally true.....BA, AF and LH are the prime choices among the European carriers providing flights to India from YYZ.....AZ also quite popular....
and I forgot EK too.
Quoting Threepoint (Reply 10):
How many other European carriers provide service to India from Toronto?
well, I'm not sure if they service India, but we get MA, OK, AY (summer only), LY, OA, and KL is all I can think of right now
Quoting Heathrow (Reply 12): well, I'm not sure if they service India
Thanks guys. I was specifically referring to Euro carriers offering service between YYZ and India (with a reasonably-timed connection at their home hubs). The reason I asked is that there was a claim of four European airlines being "the prime choices" for travelers, and I thought it somewhat amusing as that would suggest a high proportion of the total numbers of carriers on the route - and how many more can there be?
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Heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 946 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5228 times:
Quoting Threepoint (Reply 13):
Thanks guys. I was specifically referring to Euro carriers offering service between YYZ and India (with a reasonably-timed connection at their home hubs). The reason I asked is that there was a claim of four European airlines being "the prime choices" for travelers, and I thought it somewhat amusing as that would suggest a high proportion of the total numbers of carriers on the route - and how many more can there be?
Through Europe yes, but I think most people connect through asia or go direct on AI, PK or 9W
Threepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2093 posts, RR: 8 Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5218 times:
Quoting Heathrow (Reply 14): Through Europe yes, but I think most people connect through asia or go direct on AI, PK or 9W
I was only referring to European carriers, not Asian carriers that route via Europe or any carriers that fly over the Pacific. Does PK serve India from Toronto in a logical itinerary?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
Heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 946 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5204 times:
Quoting Threepoint (Reply 15): I was only referring to European carriers, not Asian carriers that route via Europe or any carriers that fly over the Pacific. Does PK serve India from Toronto in a logical itinerary?
Yes, which is why I said through Europe. Referring to AI, PK and 9W was saying the route I find mostly taken (probably not PK, but I believe they have connections). Most of the traffic goes over the pacific if I'm not mistaken.
Threepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2093 posts, RR: 8 Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5189 times:
Quoting Heathrow (Reply 16): Most of the traffic goes over the pacific if I'm not mistaken.
I'm not sure, I wonder about that. Even from YVR, it seems to be there's equal numbers of people flying to India via Eurpoe vs Asia. It would be interesting to see which is actually more popular.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
Heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 946 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5158 times:
Quoting Threepoint (Reply 17): Even from YVR, it seems to be there's equal numbers of people flying to India via Eurpoe vs Asia. It would be interesting to see which is actually more popular.
I'd be very surprised because YVR has WAY more asia flights than YYZ. I would be very interested to see these results too!
I'm in High Level right now, so we don't really get any asian or european flights :P
Threepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2093 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5122 times:
Quoting Heathrow (Reply 18): I'd be very surprised because YVR has WAY more asia flights than YYZ.
Granted. My experience comes from working with dozens of Indians who flew home on a regular basis. Their choice of routing may have had something to do with price vs time en route, or for many, the presence of family in various European (read England) locations that they could visit on a stopover.
Playing around on Great Circle Mapper, and assuming a preferred one-stop service: from YYZ it is generally much more direct to travel via Europe (SVO being the shortest). From YVR it is shorter distance going through the Far East (ICN being the shortest). The intangibles that come into play are of course price, connection timings, appeal of a stopover and preference of airline.
Now let's get the thread back on track - I tend to hijack them far too often.
[Edited 2008-12-01 12:04:52]
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
YULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2115 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5102 times:
Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5): there are bussines and goverment ties on both sides that warrant large premium traffic on YUL-CDG for AF to send their hi-J 3-class 77W to YUL.
Well, YUL-CDG is so huge that despite the fact that it is not predominantly a high-yield market (2 744s per day in the summer is LOOOOOT of Y seats, undoubtedly), it remains some room for a F and J market. Compare YUL vs JFK, YUL gets 2-3 flights, no more than one with a high-yield aircraft, while JFK gets 5-6, all with (at least) a 343, but mostly 772 and 773 (and one 744 in the summer to accomodate the seasonal touristic overflow). YUL remains a low-yield destination, overall. But the J and F market is more constant than Y thoughout the year, therefore AF sends relatively more high-yield aircraft to YUL (77W + 343) in the winter than in the summer (2*744 + 772).
YYZ has only 1 flight simply because the France-Canada ties are centered on Montreal and not Toronto. YYZ is not so much a high-yield destination therefore it does not get the 777 from AF.
Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5): As a matter of fact YUL is planned to be the first or second (afer JFK) A380 station for AF.
Are you sure of this? I thought YUL with A380 was not going to happen, finally.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4898 times:
Quoting Heathrow (Reply 18): Quoting Threepoint (Reply 17):
Even from YVR, it seems to be there's equal numbers of people flying to India via Eurpoe vs Asia. It would be interesting to see which is actually more popular.
I'd be very surprised because YVR has WAY more asia flights than YYZ. I would be very interested to see these results too!
Yes, more flights from YVR to Asia than to Europe, but you have to connect in Asia and in Europe to get to India, and I'm sure there is far more capacity from the major European gateways to India than from Asian hubs like NRT/ICN/HKG. That's likely to put downward pressure on fares via Europe, especially during off-peak times of the year. If Asian carriers can fill their limited capacity to India with higher-yield Asia-India O&D traffic, they're not going to dilute their yields by offering very low fares Canada-India.
Threepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2093 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4853 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21): but you have to connect in Asia and in Europe to get to India,
Yes, that's well understood, thank you.
Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 22): Aeroflot has gotta be really popular. I notice LOTS of Indian folks connecting through SVO
Probably a combination of low prices (I assume) and the fact that Moscow is the closest connecting city to the great circle route between eastern NA and India.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
Heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 946 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 4717 times:
does SU fly to YVR?
Also, would people heading that way possibly connect a double connect on say NW or UA (to other star partners)
25 Ktachiya: I think he was talking about Aeroflot serving YYZ. I doubt it. Why go from their original country to the United States (not Canada's favorite country
26 Heathrow: I'm aware, It was an independant question. Whenever I go to PER, I have to go LAX and then either SYD, AKL or BNE. I was wondering if the price outwe
27 Threepoint: No, it does not. If it makes sense from a timing and price perspective then most Canadians wouldn't hesitate to transit through the US. The anti-US s
28 Heathrow: Non-stop to SYD just started with AC, but I like to avoid AC at all cost. QF is usually my best / cheapest option once you rule out AC, or I have to
29 Threepoint: The YVR-SYD non-stop has been available for a year now, but I understand your aversion to AC. Qantas is a great option via LAX /SFO but often you can
30 Heathrow: I'm usually in YQU, YYZ or YOW, so YVR is still a connection for me. I thought NZ had codeshare with AC out of YVR. I would deffinately opt for CX or
31 Threepoint: They do, and it's NZ metal only unless connecting through the US. NZ operates a nonstop flight YVR-AKL, introduced in Nov 2007.
32 Aircellist: Mods, I think this thread is straying far away from its title... The interesting question could have been: how come that, say, LH can have flights to
33 Threepoint: Apologies to you sir, I didn't realize we had logged on to Aircellist.net, where we may pose or answer any question, as long as you approve of it. I
34 Okees: Thats what i thought too, I remember when AF and Airbus flew the A380 to YUL for the first time, AF announced that the A380 will not be coming to YUL
35 LH423: They're getting their first A380 in the next year (2009Q4) according to another thread. However, someone there said they heard from AF management tha
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