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Air France To Delay Tender For 100 Aircraft..  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8943 times:

..stating that the 787 has not even flown yet and Airbus has not formally frozen the A350 design..
Air France group -as well as Lufthansa- have not decided on their long expected order to replace older Long-haul aircraft in their fleets.
Yesterday the financial CFO of Air France hinted the decision would be delayed until more visibility of design freezes( A350 ) or flight-performance (Boeing 787) would become available. Air France /KLM are expected to place orders slightly above tthe 100 aircraft mark for both airlines combined. ( firm orders and options )
Lufthansa is expcted to announce a similar sized quantity for the group.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...1085&sid=andDAfCge8Z0&refer=europe


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8827 times:

Don't know about AF but KLM used to sit on their money & order "anti cyclical", so when the market looks grim to get discounts.. This seems to fit this tradition. Agree that a 787 / A350 combi is likely. A has no good alternatives for 787-8 and -9, B has no alternative for A350-900/1000..

grt Kees


User currently offlineAF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8695 times:



Quote:
Airbus had been saying the so-called design freeze would come by yearend, meaning it would know by December exactly what the plane's specifications will be. Calavia said this hasn't happened and it's not clear exactly when that will happen

We're in November and they haven't froze the specifications they said will be frozen in December!  wink 


User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8605 times:

Earlier this week KL said that the decision would most likely be in "2010, maybe earlier". The Bloomberg article says KL would be the first to receive new planes, around 2012/2013. Seems mighty early for 787 or A350 delivery slots, so I expect this will be for a couple of 77W's to replace the full pax 744's.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Agree that a 787 / A350 combi is likely

So do I. 787-9 would be perfect to replace KL's MD11 and 744 combi fleet, the A350-900 would be best suited to replace AF's A343 and 772's (IMHO).



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3164 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8527 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Agree that a 787 / A350 combi is likely. A has no good alternatives for 787-8 and -9, B has no alternative for A350-900/1000..

I'm not sure if a combi is likely for operational reasons. It might be for tactical or strategic supplier relations, but for the operations, I think they can well do with 1 of the aircraft:

Range / pax:

787-8 ~ 330-200
787-9 ~ 350-800
787-10 ~ 777-200ER ~ 350-900
777-300ER ~ 350-1000

Of course, the 332, 772 and 77W are of a different generation, and the 787-10 is not officially announced yet, but:

* Both KLM and AF have a young fleet of A332 aircraft, and even more on order
* Both KLM and AF have a young fleet of 777-300ER aircraft, and even more on order

The fleets that are first to be replaced are:
* KLM 747 full pax (by 777-300ER on order)
* KLM 747 Combi
* KLM MD-11
* AF A343
* AF 747

And later:
* AF 772

So for the first 10 years, they can well do with the 787-9 or the 350-800; in a later stage this can be expanded by 787-10 or 350-900; but they won't need a 787-10 or 350-900 the first coming years anyways.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8465 times:

I think AF/KLM with sit around the table with Delta on VLA's. Some routes (AMS-JFK/ DTW / ATL and CDG -ATL/JFK) in the future can better be covered by VLA's iso various aircraft doing the flights flying in formation.

User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7402 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8102 times:

All this is actually nothing very new : J.C Spinetta declared already a while ago that the decision expected initially for the end of 2008 would be delayed to give Airbus time to possibly propose a GE powered version of its A350.

He also confimed at that time that a single order will be placed for both AF & KL for a simple reason : There is now only one single Departement (managed by a Dutch guy, ex-KLM staff, don't remember his name) in charge of the fleet plan and fleet renewal for the entire AF&KL entity.

I don't believe in a split order. The most urgent need is a replacement for the MD11/A340 and then later the B772ERand A332. The replacement of the B77W is not up to date for the moment.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8076 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
The most urgent need is a replacement for the MD11/A340

Well, as far as I kno KLM is still heavily investing in the M11, with the Y cabin supposedly getting AVOD as of this winter. I reckon KL will fly the M11 untill there is no life left in these planes, especially in the current market condition where fuel is low again and capital costs are obviously skyrocketing. It's obvious carriers will be very cautious ordering new planes nowaday.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8067 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
The most urgent need is a replacement for the MD11/A340 and then later the B772ERand A332. The replacement of the B77W is not up to date for the moment.

I could very well see a mixed order -AF was always interested in a mix between Airbus and Boeing aircraft they had 767s, A300/A310s and A330/A340 and 777s side by side for years.

AF has a huge A332 fleet which at a later date could be replaced with the 787-8.
The MD11, 772ER, A340 could very well be replaced with the A350-900, the 77W sometimes later with the A350-1000.

787-8
A350-900
A350-1000
A380

would be my guess for AF-KLM´s future longhaul fleet

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
as well as Lufthansa

Any news when we could hear something here, I am waiting since the launch of the 7E7 for an order here  Smile



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7402 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7910 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 9):
AF was always interested in a mix between Airbus and Boeing aircraft they had 767s, A300/A310s and A330/A340 and 777s side by side for years.

AF never ordered the B767. They were inherited from UTA/Aeromaritime when AF bought them.

The A300 / A310 / A340 were "strongly suggested" (not to say imposed) for political reasons at a time AF was owned by the Government, just like the Dassaut Mercure was imposed to Air Inter (and the posibility for IT to acquire some B737 & B727 denied).

Actually, only the A332 is a "free" choice, as well as the B772ER & B77W over the A346.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3164 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7887 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think AF/KLM with sit around the table with Delta on VLA's. Some routes (AMS-JFK/ DTW / ATL and CDG -ATL/JFK) in the future can better be covered by VLA's iso various aircraft doing the flights flying in formation.

Not likely.

There is a reason for operating several flights with smaller aircraft: to optimize connection opportunities. When the time window allows for multiple frequencies, distributed over the day, this is almost always preferred over larger aircraft.

On routes from western Europe to the eastern parts of the USA, it is possible to operate several daily flights. When you look at the current situation, there are only 3 daily flights between CDG and ATL, operated by 2x 763 and 1x343. To increase capacity here, AF and DL are more likely to add an extra flight than to switch to VLA's. Besides that, there is still a lot between a 763 and an A380. 772 or 77W for example.

AMS-DTW currently operates 2x333, 1x332 and 1x757. They obviously prefered this over 2x333 and 1x772, for example. Again, for connections.

CDG-JFK is a route that suits the A380, but here we're talking about a route that generates an afwul lot of passengers; not only transfer but also O&D. Here, the A380 can do a good job. But they will still maintain several daily flights.

AMS will not see a KLM A380 in the next 10 years. If A380s will ever serve AMS, these will be in SQ or MH colors.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4497 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7818 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
* KLM 747 full pax (by 777-300ER on order)

Until further notice, the 4 B77Ws that are still on order are to be used for expansion. The first 2 B744s are slated to leave the fleet at the end of 2012 or early 2013 and to the best of my knowledge no replacement has been ordered, although a follow up B77W order is likely.


User currently offlineBoogyJay From France, joined May 2005, 490 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3790 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
The fleets that are first to be replaced are:
* KLM 747 full pax (by 777-300ER on order)
* KLM 747 Combi
* KLM MD-11
* AF A343
* AF 747

And later:
* AF 772

I don't know if you listed the fleets in a particular order but just FWIW, AF 747s faith is already sealed and it's a given that they will be replaced before the A340s. AF 747s (pax) replacement is already scheduled with 13 B773 (replacing 13 B744) with deliveries beginning in April 2010. Some A340s will probably begin leaving the fleet in the 2 coming years but I don't think there will be any major downsizing of this fleet before 2013/2014.

Quoting Columba (Reply 9):
AF has a huge A332 fleet

I wouldn't say "huge". With 16 a/c, it's true it's one of the biggest A332 fleet after EK with 29 and QR with 19 but in AF L/H fleet it's the smallest fleet after the B744 (13) and before the A340 (19), 772 (25), 773 (26).
Although not huge, it's a very important fleet for AF which uses them to open new long haul routes (e.g. BLR, MAA, SEA...)


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