Srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16223 posts, RR: 57 Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9209 times:
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Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 2): My guess would be AirTran as replacements for all the 737's they have sold. I'm pretty sure Hawaiian has plenty in their fleet now.
AirTran's returning 717s in addition to 73Gs. In fact, one of the ones HA has picked up is one that FL leased from Boeing Capital that HA had returned during their CH. 11 reorganization. HA would actually be a pretty likely destination considering they've been running their 767s on some of the inter-island routes because of the increased demand for their services in the wake of Aloha going under. The 717s are better suited to that role than the 767s are.
Hello Airplanes? Yeah, it's Blimps. You win, bye....
AV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1230 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9191 times:
Quoting Srbmod (Reply 3): AirTran's returning 717s in addition to 73Gs. In fact, one of the ones HA has picked up is one that FL leased from Boeing Capital that HA had returned during their CH. 11 reorganization. HA would actually be a pretty likely destination considering they've been running their 767s on some of the inter-island routes because of the increased demand for their services in the wake of Aloha going under. The 717s are better suited to that role than the 767s are.
Hmm interesting...then Hawaiian certainly is a logical choice.
Lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 8534 posts, RR: 100 Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9142 times:
Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 4): Hmm interesting...then Hawaiian certainly is a logical choice.
Sadly, with how few airlines operate the 717, they are the only choice right now. But how many will they take? Three? Five more? There is only so much unmet demand.
Quoting Srbmod (Reply 3): they've been running their 767s on some of the inter-island routes because of the increased demand for their services in the wake of Aloha going under.
There should be some inter-island 767 use to keep up utilization. The question is are they past the economic break-even point? I would agree that picking up some additional 717's makes sense.
Wedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5223 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9091 times:
Would there be enough 717's available to another inter-island startup in Hawaii or a restart of Aloha (although I heard Aloha's name is being sold or something like that)?
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4001 posts, RR: 48 Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9081 times:
AirTran has overcapacity and is loss making, they won't take any more aircraft and already have a hard time trying to sell some 737s.
AeBal and Bangkok Airways are also doing away theirs. Qantaslink and Turkmenistan also don't need more then the ones they have now.
Most likely the Midwest frames will be parked for a year or two and when the crisis is over, reappear at some smaller airlines, maybe some start ups we don't know about yet, maybe in Turkey, Mexico or Venezuela.
I wouldn't worry that they are to be scrapped yet. Look at the Fokker 100, when US and AA did them away after 2001 they seem to head to the scrapman, more then 100 frames were stored in the desert for a few years, and since 2005 almost all are flying again as the purchase price was low enough to make them interesting.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
All I will say is that Delta Air Lines has VERY recently conducted 717 simulator evaluations with Boeing (Alteon) at their Atlanta facility.
Take from that what you will. However, as more and more second hand 717s including ex-Midwest and ex-Bangkok Air become available, the higher the likelihood one single carrier will snatch them all up in one swoop. Additionally, Delta is working closely with the FAA to get the DC-9/MD-88/MD-90 common type rating for the combined DL/NW pilot groups. Again, take from that what you will.
From the way it looks, they're not running the 767s on inter-island routes anymore, at least according to FlightAware. There were doing so not too many months ago, so I guess they've gotten some 717s into service so they can use the 767s elsewhere (Like the Oakland Raiders charters). I also wonder if Republic coming in on behalf of Mokulele Airlines on some of the inter-island routes lessened the need for 767s.
The number of 717s coming onto the open market may be too small for a major airline to include them in their fleet (although in some cases, some of these major airlines have some small numbers of an a/c type in the fleet, for example DL's MD-90 fleet). It might be something a small airline or a start up carrier could be interested in, as due to the number of a/c available in the relative small number of them built, they are a niche a/c and someone could probably get some good leasing or financing terms on them from Boeing Capital.
Quoting Flynavy (Reply 8): Take from that what you will. However, as more and more second hand 717s including ex-Midwest and ex-Bangkok Air become available, the higher the likelihood one single carrier will snatch them all up in one swoop. Additionally, Delta is working closely with the FAA to get the DC-9/MD-88/MD-90 common type rating for the combined DL/NW pilot groups. Again, take from that what you will.
That does make sense, as Boeing (and MDD before the merger) tried to get NW and DL interested in it. NW along with SK, were originally slated to be the launch customers for the MD-95-30, but delays in the project led them to go elsewhere for a/c.
[Edited 2008-11-22 09:24:31]
Hello Airplanes? Yeah, it's Blimps. You win, bye....
GARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1461 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8995 times:
Haan't Hawaiian already sourced the additional aircraft they needed. I thought they picked up four from Australia and the one ex FL aircraft they flew previously.
If what FlyNavy says is true, seems to me that DL will be the ones to operate them.
Does the B717 beat the costs of the DC9s on the short haul flights in the Midwest??
HAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2342 posts, RR: 54 Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8965 times:
Quoting Srbmod (Reply 9): From the way it looks, they're not running the 767s on inter-island routes anymore, at least according to FlightAware. There were doing so not too many months ago, so I guess they've gotten some 717s into service so they can use the 767s elsewhere (Like the Oakland Raiders charters). I also wonder if Republic coming in on behalf of Mokulele Airlines on some of the inter-island routes lessened the need for 767s.
We ended the 767 interisland operations at the end of October as planned. It was only a stopgap measure while we acquired more interisland aircraft. We have two additional 717's online now, with two more coming in by early January. One of them (as previously mentioned) came from FL and is one of the two we returned during bankruptcy. The other three came from Australia and are ex-Impulse airlines aircraft. This was all decided well before Republic became a player in Hawaii, but having the new Mokulele/Republic operation here doesn't change our schedule or strategy one bit. We have enough aircraft for any expected interisland needs now, and would only be looking for additional 717's if we were to do some mainland flying - feeding our Hawaii flights off of the west coast; something that is most unlikely given the current economic climate.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
Dtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 893 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8933 times:
Quoting Flynavy (Reply 8): All I will say is that Delta Air Lines has VERY recently conducted 717 simulator evaluations with Boeing (Alteon) at their Atlanta facility.
Your the second source I've seen this said in the last couple of weeks.Heard that if they take them, that Boeing would revoke the leases on the other nine Midwest ships and turn them all over to DAL
Flynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8930 times:
Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 13): Your the second source I've seen this said in the last couple of weeks.Heard that if they take them, that Boeing would revoke the leases on the other nine Midwest ships and turn them all over to DAL
Exactly. And there's a reason why NW, and now DL, has a stake in YX. Though it pains me to say it, YX is toast.
Mbm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 733 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8873 times:
One has to think the 717 is a great replacement for the DC-9s from the NW fleet, whether it be for short hops in the midwest or maybe even for DL's shuttle operation.
Alternatively, how about starting a new carrier running the islands in the Carribean? It would certainly beat some of the older props that toil around! Pipe dream sure, but fun idea none the less!
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
Flynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8820 times:
If we do end up taking these 717s, AND if (and only if) Boeing grants a single type rating across the DC-9/MD-88/MD-90/717, look for Delta to also take the Saudi Arabian MD-90s with the enhanced flight decks. At the last time the issue was raised, Delta reaffirmed that it was still looking for additional MD-90s. The MD-90 enhanced flight deck is virtually similar to that of the 717's.
I'd also like to note this is just what I'm hearing on the flight ops rumor mill, nothing firm or official has been decided, nor am I involved in this project.
MD-90-30 Enhanced Flight Deck simulator at ERAU in Daytona (sorry for the poor quality):
NWA757boy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 640 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8781 times:
IF and a BIG IF NW/DL pick up 717, that will lead to another aircraft type. There are already 11 aircraft types with the combined airline and the FAA is not too keen on having the FA group trained on all 11 types.
And how many 717 would it take to be a beneficial type? 16? If my memory serves me right DL has 16 MD90s there are 16 744s and 16 757-300, so 16 looks like a good number minimal type in a fleet. Are there 16 717s looking for a home? 16 will definitely not replace the 34 DC50s, and the -50 has 125 seats, doesn't the 717 have 107 seats in FL configuration? That is more like a replacement for the -30 and-40 series. There are just a handful of 40s flying at NW around 6. I actually worked one last night, MSP-GRB was surprised I guess. I guess the 717 would be a good -30 replacement. There are roughly 30-40 DC30s actively flying now with two that just came OUT of the desert last week. So we will see.
Dtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 893 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8781 times:
Quoting Flynavy (Reply 17): look for Delta to also take the Saudi Arabian MD-90s
Interesting. The only thing I heard was that they want to bring the -90 fleet up to 50. If they can't find enough airframes, then they will park the 16 they have.
Flynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8767 times:
Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 19): The only thing I heard was that they want to bring the -90 fleet up to 50. If they can't find enough airframes, then they will park the 16 they have.
That is my understanding as well. Delta has stated that if they can not source additional frames that the MD-90 sub-fleet will be parked/sold.
- Delta currently operates 16 MD-90-30s.
- Saudi Arabian currently operates 29 MD-90 enhanced.
- China Eastern (also rumored to be going to Delta) operates 9 MD-90-30 analog.
Total frames is 54. There's your 50. I'd say there is a good chance of this all happening.
Flynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8692 times:
Quoting FD728 (Reply 23): Would it be possible to upgrade the MD-90 analog cockpit to the enhanced kind? Is it both financially and technically viable?
I suppose it's possible, but not particularly cost effective.
Besides, with a common type rating throughout all the T-tail types, all that would be needed for pilots to fly each sub-type would be differences training.
25 ConcordeBoy: ....I thought they were interested in China Southern's?
26 Flynavy: The engineering inspections were done on the Eastern birds. ANY MD-90s entering the market will no doubt catch Delta's eye.
27 NW747-400: DL should have just taken delivery of the ones they had on order to begin with. Perhaps not all, but some. Didn't their total order for MD90 exceed 10
28 Flynavy: The electrical problems encountered when the type was first introduced left a sour taste in Delta's mouth and they went with Boeing's 737-800 instead
29 NW747-400: Chris, This is actually the case already. It's just a matter of establishing a proper training program at Delta to accomodate the various differences
30 Okie73: The DC-9/MD-80, MD-90 and 717 are already a single type. They are all a DC-9 type rating. That said, there are many big differences between the 88/90
31 Flynavy: Well aware of the differences. I was in error referring to what I described as "type rating" - NW747-400 is of course correct. As I said, I'm not int
32 Lightsaber: Yes, but it would be tough to procure financing for a startup at this time. Thank you. I would have thought they would keep up the intra-island flyin
33 Flighty: Yup. It is a good replacement for the DC-9-50 and other things. The 717 is a good potential replacement for the DC-9-30 and 40. Rather than adding "m
34 Okie73: The 752/752 and 767 are all very close in how they operate. With the 764, the only difference is the displays, but everything else operates the same.
35 DeltaL1011man: plus isn't FL dropping some? or is HA picking them all up? plus the 738 had better range than the M90s.
36 NW747-400: DL has already stated that a diverse fleet will help them properly match supply with demand, and they are more than happy to have numerous aircraft t
37 SlcDeltaRUmd11: DL seems to really be happy with the MD-90 performance out of SLC. Would the 717 have the same benefits for DL in SLC or would these be aquired for so
38 HeavyMx1: FL will be taking 5 of YX's 717s in the 3rd/4th qtr 2009.
39 Thekennady: Man o Man......MKE will be gettin even less mainline now with most of the 717s gone
40 Pilotfox: If that's the case I would consider this a pretty big development
42 Lightsaber: Wow! I thought FL was returning 717s?!? Are they just rotating to obtain better lease rates? Lightsaber
43 Quickmover: It's about time, but that's not enough. These guys were willing to pay over $400 mil. for all of Midwest a year ago when oil was $70. Now they can wa
44 AAH732UAL: Not going to happen. I thought that at one time as well but the new Shuttle America operation has pretty much killed any chance of seeing AAH/AQ flyi
45 Jopavon: In Mexico it was rumored that Boeing offered them to Mexicana Click QA (Mexicana's domestic feeder), in order to replace their 25 F100 fleet. Anyone h
46 FL787: This is pretty big if its true. I'm with Quickmover, I don't know why FL won't jump on them. I can't imagine lease rates being bad with how tough it
47 Flynavy: I seriously doubt FL will take any aircraft, given the fact they have been selling and/or dropping leases on airplanes just to remain profitable. The
48 Ghost77: HIGH CHANCES those frames are coming to Mexico. Boeing is offering them... g77
49 Flynavy: To who? At the rate airlines are failing in Mexico, I'm sure Boeing would want to source these frames to a company expected to keep them off Boeing's
50 GuitrThree: Sell 'em off as private Jets.. A Rush Limbaugh/Steve Jobs type could afford one at a discounted rate I'm sure..
51 Ghost77: Yeah cheesy airlines due to irresponsible administrations. But remember still we have more that are staying and going strong. Boeing is offering the
52 Gr8SlvrFlt: From AirTran's 10-Q SEC filing of November 6th: In October 2008, as part of our agreement to defer certain aircraft deliveries and obtain backstop fin
53 DeltaL1011man: plus FL is has been dumping 717s.....why drop a plane just to pick more up?
54 TrijetsRMissed: Too bad this wasn't being done 5-10 years ago.. they might have already been in the fleet. IIRC, the order was for over 115 aircraft, however all but
55 Flynavy: Thanks for that. It certainly doesn't state that they will absolutely take them. They could very well take delivery of the 737s and sell them off imm
56 Wjcandee: Why? They all have the same backup compass and little flip-up mirror to floss with.
57 JetJeanes: For the gates in atl Delta would find it cheaper to take over airtrans. and if they are in the sims thats probably whats going to happen, Mke will soo
58 Vhqpa: Just a thought but maybe NC could take 8-10 717's and operate them on contract to Jetconnect similar to the Qantaslink Jet operation. this would allow
59 KC135TopBoom: Doesn't the B-717/MD-90 already have a common type rating from the FAA/ESAS? The B-717s would be a greaqt replacement for the NW DC-9s. Would DL use
60 Flynavy: Yeah, this was mentioned above. I misspoke when I said type rating.
61 AAH732UAL: Yes..... that would make sense. Adding the DC-9 to the MD-88 or MD-90/717 if they get them would be stupid. There is just to much risk in having crew
62 Nycbjr: Wow the possibility of DL getting more MD-90's and possibly 717's is exciting. I love the t-tails, 5 abreast seating, plus they just add a more intere
63 Srbmod: Actually, it would not be stupid. It would be not too much different than the dual 757/767 type rating. The DC-9 and analog MD-80 transition course t
64 AAH732UAL: Are you kidding? The 757/767 have a very simular cockpit while the DC9 and MD95/717 are over 40 years apart. There is just to much stuff that would b
65 Okie73: The 757/767 have pretty much identical cockpits. From the pilot perspective nothing is really different. The only difference between the 757/767 and
66 Srbmod: The DL/NW "crap" is actually related to the topic, as they are being mentioned as a possible destination for 717s that are on the open market and/or
67 TZTriStar500: While I cannot confirm who is looking at these aircraft, Boeing Capital (BCC) has put out interior reconfiguration engineering RFQs to return all 25 o
68 Dtw9: Interesting side note. SV doesn't show their MD-90's for sale anymore http://www.sv.net/CORP/Aircraftsale/
69 PGNCS: 11 days is a VERY long differences course. That's for very good reason, as the airplanes are VERY different in how they are procedurally flown. NWA b
70 Wjcandee: I think some folks are misunderstanding the difference between type rating licensewise and how pilot pools are managed at a carrier to optimize safety
71 PGNCS: I agree with you. The difference between legality and practicality is sometimes hard to assess unless viewed from a safety perspective. Despite the D
72 AAH732UAL: Can you imagine the size of the brain bags if they combined all the airplanes? Submod...... look at it this way, even the pilots who fly the A32
73 TrijetsRMissed: What if DL acquires both the 717s and SV MD-90s? Excluding the other types and variants, do you think a common pilot pool is possible for these two?
74 Okie73: No. The flight displays may be pretty much the same, but the automation is different. That is a bigger issue than the displays.
75 HeavyMx1: True FL is defering/selling A/C. True FL has recently secured additional credit through boeing. True YX is returning leased 717's. True boeing doesnt
76 Apodino: This may be an apples to oranges comparison, but if Delta felt that it was unsafe for pilots to be scheduled to fly both the 737-300 and the 800, how
77 Flynavy: I can now confirm that Delta is also considering the Uni Air planes, which also includes those operating for Eva Air. The "deal" was described to me a
78 Gr8SlvrFlt: My understanding is that Delta did indeed visit the Alteon/AirTran training facility to look at the possibility of bringing in 717s. However, they det
79 Exusair: What would be the determining factors? In a previous post, it was mentioned that Boeing was going to bring the interiors to a 12/103 configuration fro
80 Gr8SlvrFlt: What would be the determining factors? Training,crew and maintainence costs for a relatively small fleet.
81 AAH732UAL: To tell you the truth...... both (DL and WN) had/have a slaved HSI off the FMS. IIRC didn't all DL 733s come from Western? The main bulk of the fleet
82 Flynavy: All the ex-WA 733s were all steam gauge. We also had glass cockpit 733s, either delivered new to DAL as 737-332s or some that we got second-hand, mos
83 PGNCS: It is not an apples to oranges comparison. First of all SW elected to have their NG cockpits set up to resemble their 300's (EFIS/MAP format); DL ele
84 PGNCS: You know, that's interesting, and honestly I have no clue. I got to look into the advanced MD-90 sim at Long Beach maybe 10 years ago, and superficia
85 DeltaL1011man: DL only had 2 types. exWA and the ex.Germania. DL never took/ordered any 737-332s
86 Flynavy: Delta1011man is of course correct. Taking the Germania planes, one of the items on the list of peculiar things Delta did with their fleet in the 1990
87 DeltaL1011man: not sure if it matters but DL did have 737-347s(9) 737-35B(5) 737-3L9(2) and 737-330(2) the 347s can from WA and the rest came from Germania.
88 AvConsultant: exactly, DL chose their MD-90's cockpit layout to be the same as the MD-88. Where the B-717 cockpit layout is the same as the MD-11. Now, some of the
89 TrijetsRMissed: That would make eleven aircraft, including two ERs. It'll get DL just past halfway to their goal of 50, if it goes through. Please keep us informed.
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From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 2017 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 813 posts, 
But how many will they take? Three? Five more? There is only so much unmet demand.
From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4001 posts, 
Exactly. And there's a reason why NW, and now DL, has a stake in YX. Though it pains me to say it, YX is toast.
From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 130 posts, 
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