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AA283 LAX-HNL  
User currently offlineAQ737 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 612 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5170 times:

It looks like American is removing its last 767 service between Honolulu and the West Coast (LAX-HNL-LAX) effective sometime in the spring (march?) of 2009. My flight in May was changed to a 757 service, effectively changing HNL's operation from
1x 763 ORD
2x 763 DFW
3x 757 LAX
1x 763 LAX
1x 757 SFO

to

2x 763 DFW
4x 757 LAX
1x 757 SFO

Why was this done? Is it temporary or is it looking to be a permanent change? I know they will be refitting the 767s with winglets, so will the 767 come back to operate 283/284 or is it gone for good? It was nice to have the international 30F cabin.

Thanks,
Aq737

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5120 times:

This sucks. AA should keep at least one 763 on the LAX-HNL route. It's a competitive loss compared to UA, which still flies widebodies on this route.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineFbgdavidson From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 3697 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5072 times:



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 1):
This sucks. AA should keep at least one 763 on the LAX-HNL route. It's a competitive loss compared to UA, which still flies widebodies on this route.

To be honest I don't think many care about whether it is widebody or not. Economy travellers are primarily price sensitive. For those looking at F AA's 767 product was far better than what UA offer. If they put the 757 on the LAX-HNL routes it is comparable to UA's 763 offering.



"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32216 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5022 times:

There is no reason to keep a 763 on LAX-HNL.

1) There is no "competitive" disadvantage. 99% of people don't care.
2) American Airlines, unlike UA and DL, does not have domestic-configured 767s.
3) They need 763s for Europe and South America.

It's about time they got rid of it, it is needed elsewhere.



a.
User currently offlineUA76Heavy From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4756 times:

Traffic to Hawaii from the US mainland is down. The state reports tourism is down 20 percent. AA is probably trimming capacity while maintaining its market presence. No use flying a bunch of empty seats.

User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4746 times:

It just seems all too quick to me. I want to say that last year AA was flying at least 2x 763 to HNL. Anybody know how AA does with the loads in F? You can't deny that there is a better F product on the 763s to HNL than the 757. At least in terms of overall comfort.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4732 times:

That's the point. Paid tickets don't account for enough to justify a business configured 763. The first cabin on the 757 is great, and competes favorably with the other available services on other carriers.

Surprised they gave up entirely on ORD... but, its hard to compete with UA's frequency to the islands.

NS


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32216 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4702 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Surprised they gave up entirely on ORD... but, its hard to compete with UA's frequency to the islands.

Removing the 763 from LAX-HNL and ending ORD-HNL aren't really an issue of competing. For a while after UA retired their DC10s, AA was the only carrier on ORD-HNL.

The issue is those 763s are wasted to Hawai'i when they are needed to South America and Europe. AA has been adding 763 routes in both regions, without adding planes.

Though as many have mentioned, the 757 product effectively competes with what others offer to the islands, so it still doesn't put AA at a disadvantage.

I would venture to hypothesize, though, that even if the 757 product put AA at a serve disadvantage, they would still do this, because using internationally configured widebodies to Honolulu is a huge waste.

Maybe when AA starts getting 789s, they will configure some 763s into a high-density configuration for short/medium-haul to Latin America/Caribbean, and those could be perfect for Hawai'i too. AA used to have Hawai'i-configured 763s until around 2003 or so.



a.
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3946 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4261 times:
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I wouldn't be surprised to see DL eventually go all 75S LAX-HNL since they are already utilizing them to KOA, LIH and sometimes to OGG as well.

It looks like the sole widebody utilizer to HNL/OGG from the mainland is and will continue to be HA.


User currently offlineFbgdavidson From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 3697 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4120 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
The first cabin on the 757 is great

Are you kidding me? I really dislike travelling in AA F on the 757, and only do so because it is better than Y, or I can't get on anything else. The seat provides nothing for the head to rest on (unlike UA) and sleeping on redeyes is almost impossible. The sooner the 757s get refitted and those brown monstrosities leave the fleet the better.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
and competes favorably with the other available services on other carriers.

This is true, and probably why AA feel the need they can utilise the 763 more effectively elsewhere.



"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1647 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4102 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
The issue is those 763s are wasted to Hawai'i when they are needed to South America and Europe. AA has been adding 763 routes in both regions, without adding planes.

I might agree here. I remember that someone from AA once told me they put their rattiest DC-10's on the HNL routes in the past because the yield was so low. It is usually filled with FF miles and leasure travelers.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32216 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4032 times:



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 8):

It looks like the sole widebody utilizer to HNL/OGG from the mainland is and will continue to be HA.

You're forgetting about UA, with domestic-configured 772 and 763s used to Hawai'i.



a.
User currently offlineWillyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Shoot! I'm booked in First on AA 283 in April - oh well, I'm one of those no yield FF award flyers, so I shouldn't complain.

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 8):
I wouldn't be surprised to see DL eventually go all 75S LAX-HNL since they are already utilizing them to KOA, LIH and sometimes to OGG as well.

Probably not, as there are a limited number of domestic aircraft in DL's fleet that are ETOPS-rated. Other than the 764ERs (which will all be converted to international configuration anyway), the domestic ETOPS fleet consists of four 752s (the ex-ATA aircraft), four 763s (ships 1401-1404), and the 73G fleet. I don't think DL will use 73Gs on the LAX-HNL route, as the 73G is simply too small for a market such as Hawaii.

However, with the NW merger, we could see more 753s operating the route during the off-season. However, I don't think DL will stop using the domestic 763s on the route, as DL wants to get the most out of their aircraft. The four ETOPS domestic 763s are easily capable of flying the route. However, they would struggle on transatlantic routes, so DL will likely keep these four aircraft doing the Hawaii runs. At the same time, the 753s can be used on the smaller Hawaii destinations during the peak season.

We also could see domestic 763s on the SLC-HNL route, as the 764ER on the route will soon be flying international routes. The only 764ER service HNL will get is the ATL-HNL route.

[Edited 2008-12-08 18:20:05]

[Edited 2008-12-08 18:21:21]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineSoxfan From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 862 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3152 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
The only 764ER service HNL will get is the ATL-HNL route

Will this be the one route on which the 764 will retain the domestic configuration?

Also, although I have never flown the route, with the 763 AA's product was likely better than UA's, even on UA's 777, because UA's aircraft was in a domestic configuration (regular first seats, not international-style). I wonder if there even would be a difference in FC if UA flew the 757, 767, OR 777 to Hawaii (apart from the number of seats). I don't mind AA's domestic F seats, but I agree, it sounds like the new F seats that will come with the refit will be more comfortable. Do UA's F seats have adjustable head support? Is there any difference in the F seat on their domestic 757/767/777s?



Pilot: "Request push, which way should we face?" JFK Ground: "You better face the front, sir, or you'll scare the pax!"
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3113 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 14):
Will this be the one route on which the 764 will retain the domestic configuration?

No, it will operate using an international configuration 764ER.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4064 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3104 times:



Quoting UA76Heavy (Reply 4):
Traffic to Hawaii from the US mainland is down. The state reports tourism is down 20 percent. AA is probably trimming capacity while maintaining its market presence. No use flying a bunch of empty seats.

This is also from the fact that Hawaii has lost two airlines that serve the islands, Aloha and ATA. But also the economy has something to do with it.

AA needs to deploy their 767-300's on their Latin American routes to be able to keep it's cargo capacity available with the retirement of the A300's. Any way are AA really losing much as they have added a fourth flight from LAX. The flight from ORD was not always full and I found it to be a bit of an endurance test for me to be on a plane for 10 hours and not have any thing to eat or be able to get up and walk around for an extended period of time. I much prefer the flight to be broken up into a couple of segments just to be able to get a bite and walk and stretch my legs for a bit.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinePohakuloa From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3036 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 16):
This is also from the fact that Hawaii has lost two airlines that serve the islands, Aloha and ATA. But also the economy has something to do with it.

Also the fact that airlines have cut flights and seats are scarce. its easy to show a decrease in visitors when there are not nearly the same amount of seats as once was.



Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4064 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2469 times:



Quoting AQ737 (Thread starter):
effective sometime in the spring (march?) of 2009. My flight in May was changed to a 757 service,

I believe that they are making the change after Christmas, as I am booked on the 3rd of Feb. on 757's



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2451 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 18):
I believe that they are making the change after Christmas

On April 4, the last 763 becomes a 752.


User currently offlineFbgdavidson From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 3697 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2428 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 14):
I wonder if there even would be a difference in FC if UA flew the 757, 767, OR 777 to Hawaii (apart from the number of seats). I don't mind AA's domestic F seats, but I agree, it sounds like the new F seats that will come with the refit will be more comfortable. Do UA's F seats have adjustable head support? Is there any difference in the F seat on their domestic 757/767/777s?

UA's domestic F product in terms of seating is pretty consistent and do not vary on domestically configured aircraft (apart from p.s.). The seats do have adjustable headrests with the wings that swivel out away from the seat.

You'll find some aircraft have a bluey upholstery (you find these on Airbus fleet) whilst others have grey.



"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4268 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

Yikes, AA 283 going 757?

My first reaction was to see if that meant that the MIA-LAX portion of AA 283 was going from 763 to 757 also. Thank goodness it's not - they are just giving it a new flight number (AA 271).

AA 283 MIA-LAX is my favorite flight on that run... even if I'm in coach, I manage to snag one of the seats in the "private" coach cabin right behind the J (sold as F) cabin.


User currently offlineUA76Heavy From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2266 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 16):
But also the economy has something to do with it.

The economy has a lot to do with it. Vacations are luxuries and when the threat of being unemployed is looming, not many people take them. In this poor economy, people curtail their spending and start saving every cent just in case someone in the household becomes unemployed.

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 20):
UA's domestic F product in terms of seating is pretty consistent and do not vary on domestically configured aircraft (apart from p.s.). The seats do have adjustable headrests with the wings that swivel out away from the seat.

Quite frankly, UA's domestic F product is more of a glorified economy-plus product. The difference lies in the meal (something vs. BOB), wider seats and more leg room. However, it makes a difference on longer flights (i.e., transcons and trans Pacific).

BTW, I got to fly one of UA's newly configured J class 744s to HKG from SFO the other week. What a great leap forward. Unfortunately, a bunch of us in the upper deck couldn't access the movies, though (everything else worked fine). One of the FAs said they've been having problems with the new IFEs to the point where they were pulling planes out of service. Perhaps someone in UA can comment.


User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4064 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2158 times:



Quoting UA76Heavy (Reply 22):
Vacations are luxuries and when the threat of being unemployed is looming, not many people take them. In this poor economy, people curtail their spending and start saving every cent just in case someone in the household becomes unemployed.

I understand this but going to Hawaii for most people is a luxury they will never have. Most of the tourists that go to Hawaii are usually either honeymooners or retired. This is not a place Joe Lunch-bucket is going to consider no matter what state the economy is in.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24367 posts, RR: 47
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2095 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 23):
I understand this but going to Hawaii for most people is a luxury they will never have. Most of the tourists that go to Hawaii are usually either honeymooners or retired. This is not a place Joe Lunch-bucket is going to consider no matter what state the economy is in.

Your understanding of Hawaii travel market is wrong.

Honeymoon, or wedding related friends and family travel accounted for 8.3% of all visitors to the islands in 2007.

Hawaii is much more a destination for the masses, and predominately from the Western US(single largest Hawaii travel market), from where people go to Hawaii on a very regular basis including even for long weekends and by your Joe Lunch-bucket.

Hawaii is not a 'luxury' travel destination for most, and explains why historically airlines have flown their highest density aircraft to the islands and existance of charter carriers in the market.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 FoxBravo : Also CO, which flies 764s with BusinessFirst from EWR and IAH to HNL. Best way to the islands!
26 413X3 : That may have been true in the past, with the real estate market bubble blowing up thanks to Japanese investors, and cheap vacation packages availabl
27 UA76Heavy : Yes, Hawaii has become the vacation spot of the masses, including Joe Lunch-bucket and his family, and this is what's also hurting Hawaii's economy.
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