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Boeing 787 Production Frozen.  
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 69
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 33920 times:

Flight International has provided us with an interesting update regarding the 787 program. Unfortunately the news is not good and seems that the fastener issues responsible for a great part of the delays to the program, continues to give Boeing major headaches.

Boeing 787 production frozen as fastener issue bites.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rozen-as-fastener-issue-bites.html

On-going replacement of thousands of Boeing 787 fasteners has frozen the production line, as the airframer conducts a formal assessment of the programme's schedule, including the timeline for first flight and delivery.

But ATI affiliate Flightblogger reports that, according to sources familiar with the fastener replacement timeline, the expected completion of the fix for Dreamliner One should come by the end of December.

The effects of the fastener replacement, however, are reverberating down the 787 assembly line. Sources at Everett state that no production airframe movements are scheduled for the remainder of the year, resulting in final assembly start for Dreamliner Five - the first General Electric GEnx-powered 787 - being pushed into 2009.


Regards,
Wings


Aviation Is A Passion.
169 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29649 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 33838 times:
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Well that would explain why Boeing has moved first deliveries to the last months of 2009.

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 33608 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Well that would explain why Boeing has moved first deliveries to the last months of 2009.

I don't think that explains it as its unachievable already. This second fastener meltdown will likely add 3 (I'm trying to remain optimistic) months extra. First flight optimistically will happen by the summer plus a year test program (again optimistically) gets you to summer 2010.


User currently offlineSwallow From Uganda, joined Jul 2007, 554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 33604 times:

Hmm... Sad but ultimately necessary to freeze production and remove all the kinks. It may be prudent to announce a longer delay at their next program update, like Airbus did, so that they have time to bring the program back on track.

Managing a backlog this size is going to be a monumental challenge. But if the 787 meets or exceeds its promises, then all will be forgiven after Boeing and its customers kiss and make up.

How much longer before another head rolls?



The grass is greener where you water it
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3413 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 33593 times:

In 6 Months I expect to read one of the following headlines:

*********
Boeing Cancells 787 programme: VP Operations says "the Dreamliner is simply unable to fly".

**********
Boeing face over $5bn in cancellations due to 787 programme problems

**********
Boeing 787 will not fly- Engineers forgot to calculate the weight of the landing gear- programme cancelled.

**********

I love Boeing a/c....but honestly- when will it end. The A380 seems like a dream programme compared to the 787. It is becoming a MAJOR embarassment for Boeing. I bet the hedgefunds are living Boeing's blunders though- they must be making a killing as the Boeing stock-price plummets week on week!

AA1818



God is a Trini...
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 815 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 33447 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Well that would explain why Boeing has moved first deliveries to the last months of 2009.

If it takes until the end of December to fix the fastener problem on Dreamliner One, first flight seems unlikely before Q2, 2009 at the earliest.

The delays in the production of the test aircraft make the compressed test schedule likely unachievable. So, add at least one year of flight testing to that.

EIS in Q2, 2010 seems a best-case scenario now.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 33451 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 4):
The A380 seems like a dream programme compared to the 787.

Who would've thought two years ago the A380's problems would have ended up paling in comparison to the 787's?

You heard it here first, folks: watch for McNerney's head to roll sometime in 2009.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 33408 times:

Checking, removing, preparing and replacing thousands of fasterners on all produced frames doesn't sound like something to be completed in a few weeks from now. Sounds like ambiteous", "sporty", "challenging", "tight", "no room for further drawbacks" again. But maybe it's an isolated number of assemblies to has to be reworked, lets hope so.

[Edited 2008-11-24 09:40:17]

User currently offlineVirginblue4 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 33308 times:

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 4):
In 6 Months I expect to read one of the following headlines:

*********
Boeing Cancells 787 programme: VP Operations says "the Dreamliner is simply unable to fly".

Are you being serious? I know they have been having LOTS of problems with the 787 but dont you think this is going a little too far? Cmon the 787 has LOTS of orders (not sure how many) so i highly doubt they will ever cancel it.

Jordan

[Edited 2008-11-24 09:38:21]


The amazing tale of flight.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21413 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 33228 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
But maybe it's a isolated number of assemblies to has to be checked, lets hope so.

Well it's only the frames/sections built, so that's isolated. And one assumes they will do the most time critical frames first, so the entire set of frames may not be finished in a month, but the first couple may be.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3413 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 33178 times:



Quoting Virginblue4 (Reply 8):
Are you being serious? I know they have been having LOTS of problems with the 787 but dont you think this is going a little too far? Cmon the 787 has LOTS or orders not sure how many so i highly doubt they will ever cancel it.

Did you read the third 'possible news title' i wrote?? I was kidding!!
Some people on A.Net really need to lighten up a little!

The bottom part of my message was more seriously minded though- the A380s problems do pale in comparison!

Also- the 787 may have lots of orders now. What about if airlines begin cancelling and with the drying up of capital coupled with the fragile state of many of the world's airlines? I do not believe even for one minute that the 787 will be cancelled, but I do think Boeing needs to get their act together!

AA1818



God is a Trini...
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2752 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 33045 times:



Quoting Virginblue4 (Reply 8):
Quoting AA1818 (Reply 4):
In 6 Months I expect to read one of the following headlines:

*********
Boeing Cancells 787 programme: VP Operations says "the Dreamliner is simply unable to fly".

Are you being serious? I know they have been having LOTS of problems with the 787 but dont you think this is going a little too far? Cmon the 787 has LOTS of orders (not sure how many) so i highly doubt they will ever cancel it.

I think that was a joke... Wink


User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1775 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32960 times:

Boeing should change the name of the 787 to the Nightmareliner Big grin


There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineDtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32958 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 10):
Also- the 787 may have lots of orders now. What about if airlines begin cancelling and with the drying up of capital coupled with the fragile state of many of the world's airlines? I do not believe even for one minute that the 787 will be cancelled, but I do think Boeing needs to get their act together!

I wonder if the airlines are quietly happy about the delays. With the World's economies taking a hit, the financials in the tank,and the airlines cutting capacity,do they really need all of these aircraft right now. I also don't see the airlines screaming loudly about all of these delays like they did with the A380


User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3413 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32875 times:



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 13):
I wonder if the airlines are quietly happy about the delays. With the World's economies taking a hit, the financials in the tank,and the airlines cutting capacity,do they really need all of these aircraft right now. I also don't see the airlines screaming loudly about all of these delays like they did with the A380

Very true...and the delays probably matter less with oil being relatively cheaper vs 6 months or a year ago when many orders were placed!

AA1818



God is a Trini...
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32780 times:



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 13):
I wonder if the airlines are quietly happy about the delays.

I think some are bound to be - you don't often get paid for deferring your deliveries.


User currently offlineNomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1761 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32727 times:



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 6):
Who would've thought two years ago the A380's problems would have ended up paling in comparison to the 787's?

How many 380s are being flown by customers almost four years after rollout?
How many 380s have been sold in the last four years?

I guess people who don't have those pesky little things like reality to worry about can see whatever they need to see.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offline797charter From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32722 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 14):
Very true...and the delays probably matter less with oil being relatively cheaper vs 6 months or a year ago when many orders were placed!

Very true, and with the financial crisis in mind, no one will be able to pay for them anyway - so at the end of the day - the latest delay is acutally a very good thing!

 duck 



Keep it clear of the propellers
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2752 posts, RR: 45
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32556 times:



Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 16):
How many 380s are being flown by customers almost four years after rollout?
How many 380s have been sold in the last four years?

How do the A-380 sales figures excuse Boeing's mismanagement of the 787?

And how is this relevant? The market is very limited for very large aircraft; this is a 30 year program. The A-380 has been VERY effective in competitions against the 748 with passenger carriers. The A-380 is, whether you like it or not, at the very beginning of its life with plenty of time left on the clock; the 747 is in the twilight of its days.


User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 501 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 31972 times:

Hey All,

This will get you directly to the full report:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...87-dreamliner-production-froz.html

It also includes a diagram of the current state of production. You'll see the wings and HTP for Dreamliner 5 in the back and all the pylons removed. Let's hope things get sorted out sooner rather than later.

Onward,

IAD787



Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineOlle From Sweden, joined Feb 2007, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 31847 times:

The airlines will use this delays to make Boeing pay $$$ for the delays... I do not believe they will leave the program...

The main question must be if Boeing succeds to use the time for deliver the first airplanes in the same quality standard as we have seen the first few A380.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29649 posts, RR: 84
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 31637 times:
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At this point, Boeing I am of the opinion really should plan for the long-term future, as well.

As such, they need to create a second FAL in Texas or Alabama (take the monies that they were willing to give Airbus to build the KC-45 plant). And buy enough space to put the 737RS and 777RS lines next to it as well as space to encourage future suppliers to consider locating there.

They should also fund the suppliers to support an eventual 20 shipsets per month over say the next four years.

That way they can start with 10 a month (5 per FAL) and if one FAL has a problem, the other can keep cranking. And then as they both build, you'll eventually hit 20-30 a month which will keep you on track to meet deliveries as needed through the end of next decade.

If demand for new airplanes implodes, then Boeing draws down the PAE line on 40-26 as necessary to compensate since the AL line will be cheaper to operate. And then when it's time to switch over to the 737RS, they can close the Renton plant and then the city/county/state can close RTN and pave it all for new development. PAE will soldier on for decades building 777s and 747s (and maybe 767s), but eventually it too will be able to be phased out and sold off for development.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4592 posts, RR: 38
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 31482 times:
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Quoting Olle (Reply 20):
The main question must be if Boeing succeeds to use the time for deliver the first airplanes in the same quality standard as we have seen the first few A380.

The delays will give Boeing extra time to mature some systems, no doubt about that. But I stated several times already that despite the production problems on the A380, Airbus had time to mature a flying test-fleet of aircraft. And they did a great job since the EIS for all the A380's has been and still is very, very smooth. Especially for such a large and complex airplane.

Boeing does not have this luxury on this one since none of the 6 B787-Dreamliners, which are destined to fulfill the test program, are flying. And number 5 and number 6 are very far away from flight ready and participating into the flight test program. Here I do hope for Boeing, its customers and all aviation fans around the world that all goes well, but in a flight test program there is always the possibility that something nasty comes up.

There is no need to create a race about which problems were/are more severe. Those of the A380 or those of the B787. Both programs experienced Billions of losses due to production or development problems. Both experiences are very sad for the involved companies and customers. And as a fan of aviation, I find them both to be a sad experience.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 30944 times:

IMO, the biggest problem that these delays create for Boeing is at least the perception that the A350 will not be far behind the B787.

At present the gap is about 3-4 years. That plus the reduced cost of oil and the economic downturn may encourage some airlines to not rush into a decision.

I am aware, (as no doubt I will be reminded) that there could be delays in the A350 as well.
However, I have no doubt that Airbus are watching developments with interest.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13042 posts, RR: 78
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 30607 times:

Sitch mentioning the abortive tanker deal makes me think, with all these escalating delays to the 787, how many man-hours (and $) did Boeing use lobbying, complaining and generally working to over-turn the KC-45?

All the while, the 787 goes through crisis after crisis.
Sure you cannot directly link production / vendor problems with the machinations in Washington, but what impression does it give.
All that effort to effectively prolong, with tax $, the moribund 767, while the game changing and vital replacement 787 founders.

It's rather the same sort of impression GM and Ford executives recently gave, flying to Washington to beg for a bunch of public money, but getting there on company private jets !

Not directly linked to the problems again, but how shitty does it look?
Fiddling while Rome burns?


25 Davescj : I am in total agreement with this. I think this will happen also. What is the issue with the fasteners? I thought the problem was getting them fast e
26 Prebennorholm : Sure you are right, Dtw. There will be several airlines out there which are quietly happy to see their 787 orders to be fulfilled late. But they do w
27 Stitch : I remain absolutely convinced that people are greatly exaggerating the impact compensation payments will have on the 787 program. Boeing is just not a
28 Nomadd22 : Next time, try including the post I was responding to. I'd guess that Boeing might be ready for a 2nd line when they bring the -10 on board, with the
29 EPA001 : That -10 is not a priority for Boeing at this time. Let them get the program in the air and let them get the -8 and -9 versions certified. Then they
30 Post contains links Mattcawby : Update: Dreamliner meets Dreamlifter http://kpae.blogspot.com/
31 Thorben : Boeing shares are going to go down, lease rates for A330s, A340s, and 777s are going to soar. No EIS before 2010, I guess.
32 Bennett123 : Something that I have often wondered when airlines lease used aircraft is commonality. Clearly you will want all of your A330 to have the same engines
33 Manfredj : There is definately truth to this statement whether it was sarcasm or not. Truth be told, we are not hearing quite the same backlash from the airline
34 797charter : " target=_blank>http://kpae.blogspot.com/ Dear Matt! Another "first" from you! I love you pics and enjoy every morning (local danish time) to see the
35 Ikramerica : Too a certain degree you are right, but there will be those carriers who will use the opportunity to pull back on their order as their growth plans ar
36 ER757 : I know you meant this in jest, but I think if this silliness continues, some carriers will cancel. To put it mildly He may not make it that long.....
37 Zeke : I am still hopeful that the 787 is a fundamentally good design, the company is doing the right thing and getting the aircraft right, what the company
38 EPA001 : Sadly enough I think you are complete correct with this assumption Zeke. In the end, someone will be held responsible, and that person has got to go.
39 Post contains images Keesje : Some details from Seattletimes : The fix could require replacing up to 8,000 of the fasteners on each of the first dozen planes that are in various st
40 BrianDromey : Im sure it will be, in just the same way the A380 is being welcomed in fleets with open arms across the world. The thing about the A380 is that peopl
41 TristarCrazy : Wow, so don't ya'll think it would of been quicker to "trash" Dreamliner One and used 4, 5 or 6, etc for the first flight aircraft?? How many times ar
42 PVG : They should fire him now and bring back Mullaly. He's had it with Ford anyway from what I saw in the congressional hearings last week. Looks to me li
43 Gemuser : Oh God! Here we go again. Manfredj, despite what you say NO airline has ordered the A380 as a status symbol! They simply cost too much for that. I do
44 Bennett123 : Briguy1974 IMO your apparent assumption that the A380 will lose $BN and that the B787 will make $BN is somewhat premature. Firstly, the two aircraft a
45 FrmrCAPCADET : haha - nasty comment (because it seems true, not malicious) - someone is likely to put it in their signature line. Those of us who consider Boeing th
46 Bennett123 : Stitch Surely this depends on how stupid people think that Boeing are, and how inept they really are. Seriously, IMO they are in the aircraft building
47 Tdscanuck : No. 4, 5, and 6 apparently all have the same issues. Until they get it right. Tom.
48 EBJ1248650 : He's being very facetious. There's no way the program is going to be cancelled!
49 RedChili : Actually, cancellations is the last thing I would expect to happen in this situation. If an airline cancels, they may or may not lose the deposit the
50 RedFlyer : Respectfully, we're only looking at the two programs from their engineering/development standpoint. And from that standpoint, the 787 seems to be hav
51 SpeedBirdA380 : So in your eyes the A380 is merely a status symbol for airlines with money to burn? Could you explain a bit more how you came to that conclusion. Tha
52 Nomadd22 : My apologies for falling for the 380 thing. There's plenty of that foolishness without me adding to it. How exactly do you test for out of spec fasten
53 Mham001 : As I understood, the holes were not drilled right to allow the correct fastener to seat properly. Does this mean they will have special order a fasten
54 Haggis79 : from what I understand, they will have to remove the fasteners, drill a sink into the top of the hole to allow the fasteners to fit and finally insta
55 474218 : I can't see where freezing production has any effect on the 787 program. Other than the static and fatigue test (where the fastener problem was found)
56 Observer : The fasteners are the least of the problems.
57 Astuteman : Er, nice way to ignore prevailing market conditions The A380 delays occurred in the middle of an unprecedented order boom - there have been many (and
58 ADent : Thought it was now 7-Late-7 Boeing already owns a good chunk of land adjoining HSV. #1 is filled with special test equipment built into the plane. Th
59 Bill142 : Don't forget the "Airbus Parent EADS acquires Boeing" headline Sarcasm is foreign around here.
60 Ikramerica : Are there really 250,000 fasteners connecting the titanium to the composite inside each dreamliner? I highly doubt that. We know this: breakeven for
61 Chiad : With all these problems before first flight I believe that the B787 will EIS no earlier than 2011. I think there's an ocean of challenges that will be
62 Bennett123 : Do you have a source for that figure, 500 seems rather high.
63 Ikramerica : It's approaching 500. It was at least 450 last time I heard from Airbus, and they refused to pin it down, but 450 was not the maximum. It is quite hi
64 RedChili : Where have you been the last two months? In case you haven't noticed, the euro-dollar exchange rate has improved markedly in Airbus's favor. An airpl
65 Art : But it's only fasteners used in conjuction with titanium structures. Are there 250,000 such fastenings per aircraft? I would guess the 250,000 number
66 Post contains links Keesje : Man, those are not the happiest days for Boeing Defective fasteners installed on Boeing 737's http://www.king5.com/business/storie...utplate_concerns
67 BlueSky1976 : This number was mentioned at the time when US Dollar was at all-time low against Euro. Now it might have actually decreased somewhat as the American
68 Post contains images Keesje : It seems the Osprey, 737 and 787 problems all have to do with a lack of quality control. Boeing will now have to show the FAA what went wrong, why it
69 Hypersonic : Absolutely! - He was just having a defensive/agressive pop .... And was probably one of the many on here a few years ago, slagging off the A380 & lau
70 Claudewilks : Does anybody in the forum have some real numbers on the Break-even-point of both airplanes?? I wasnt able to find anything reliable. Thx CRW
71 Par13del : Is anyone on this forum still attempting to lay the blame for this B-787 fiasco at the feet of the union? If quality control is now a major part of th
72 Swallow : This is one long 'pregnancy' for Boeing. Must be hard when you do not know when the baby is due A combination of the 787, 777F and 748 delays, the 10
73 Par13del : Ironic indeed, on the face of it, when you look at the European nation with the strong economies - Germany, France - and the Asian economies - China
74 Keesje : Wrong timing. European countries are on the brink of ordering hundreds of US JSF fighters like they have done massive US weapon buys for decades. Eve
75 Babybus : With all the compensation they will have to pay out and the guarantee that many customers will cancel orders, I wonder is it worth Boeing continuing w
76 WildcatYXU : You're kidding, right? Outsourced or not, the quality of final product is Boeings responsibility. So they better keep an eye on the component constru
77 Keesje : Now that is definately a step to far IMO, and wasting an enormous amount of invested capital. IMO the "best" Boeing could have now is a few low profi
78 GDB : I do think there is so much truth in that. Though by 'people' really we mean total cheerleaders. I also think comparisons with A380 are limited (if i
79 Art : Can lead those who finance government purchases open to massive overcharging. And who finances government purchases? Airbus did not admit defeat with
80 Rheinwaldner : All the other airforces shall get the best tanker toy and the USAF shall get the best toy tanker? Boeing could open a charity account as well and all
81 Slz396 : How ironic to see the 787 being completely tangled up in a web made up of fastener problems from which it seems almost unable to emerge unharmed. I st
82 Post contains images Swallow : Well, lets just say that 2 years ago, Boeing had Airbus on the ropes. Airbus was stumbling from one delay to another and had a CEO revolving door. At
83 Speedbird128 : Correct. And Airbus capitalised on that by fliying the machine and gathering data, fixing snags not related to the harnesses etc. That is why when th
84 474218 : At least! Look at the picture in Reply 39. There are over 250 fasteners visible in a very small section of the two frames. Multiply that time the ful
85 Bongodog1964 : Whats the alternative for Boeing ? if they cancel the 787, all they can offer airlines is the 767, which is already at a disadvantage to the A330, wi
86 Swallow : Agreed. If it was only fasteners then things would not be so complicated. But with travelled work, weak spars in the center wing box, travelled work,
87 Slz396 : Indeed! See what I mean?
88 Airbazar : Yes. For most customers who ordered, the 787 was never going to be available right now. They ordered for the future and as bad as the world economic
89 Manfredj : Sure, the 747 had the same prestige when it first rolled off the assembly line. It was much anticipated for all the same reasons...lounges, luxery an
90 Keesje : For the last 20 yrs (since the 747-400) air traffic trippled. Fuel prices also. Having a 40% bigger aircraft doesn't strike me as unlogical when you
91 Astuteman : No. I believe Being will look back on this, and bless the downturn occurring when it did. It could save a lot of their bacon.... I'll maintain that t
92 Par13del : Do you have some other logical reason to explain why quality control was so shot to hell, I'm trying to find one that makes sense, I did not hear of
93 Swallow : Sir, you may be underestimating the marketing value of amenities like showers and double beds for mile high you-know-what. For the well heeled, these
94 SpeedBirdA380 : Perhaps not necessary but attractive to those that can afford it. But nessescity is not a word relevant to many people with large bank balances! Sure
95 Abba : Me!
96 FrmrCAPCADET : res 380 versus 787 problems which was worse is it worse to have cancer or a heart attack probably not the question that comes to the mind in the midst
97 Post contains links Manfredj : History has proved time and time again, such things always end up becoming more coach seats when the economy goes bad. Hmmm, how many economy seats c
98 SpeedBirdA380 : You may well be right. Oh yes. Very nice indeed.
99 Tdscanuck : Such as? I'm not denying there will be issues, I'm just curious what you think they will be. So far, almost all the 787 issues seem to be production
100 Chiad : I think that the B787, with all the new tech stuff made by so many suppliers around the world, will suffer challanges during flight testing that will
101 Astuteman : Intuitively I'd have said that extra seats wouldn't help much when the economy goes bad. I suspect its more a case of "such things always end up beco
102 Gemuser : Actually Astuteman for QF it's B743s! Gemuser
103 DocLightning : At this point you have to start running the numbers. If there are so many cancellations on this aircraft because of the delays and if the price of co
104 Post contains links RedChili : In my opinion, cancellations would perhaps help Boeing in this situation. A cancellation would perhaps mean that Boeing would be able to keep the dep
105 Swallow : Good point. But at least the CRJ1000 is flying True. However, they are burning through cash with production snafus and increased R&D on the 787 and 7
106 Davescj : Good thing that "goodwill" was already written down, eh? Related to that, what is going to happen with the A320/321 and 737 family replacements? We a
107 MCIGuy : The engines for a next-gen narrow body aren't ready yet and the engine OEMs say they won't be for a few more years. I'm sure both A and B are quietly
108 AirNZ : Just to be clear, are you suggesting that Airbus are not good products and questioning their quality? It's absolute nonsense, and nothing to do with
109 ChrisNH : There is every probability that crude prices will be much, much higher by the time the 787 takes to the skies. Banking on today's current prices rema
110 Cpd : Except they won't become economy class seating areas. This obsession with the 1st class shower by the B crowd is something silly. For other A380 oper
111 AirNZ : Just as a matter of interest.....there are more Camry's on the road than there are Ferrari's! Yes indeed, and in theory you should be absolutely corr
112 Post contains links SpeedBirdA380 : An intersting article from the Seattle times. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ology/2008413389_dreamliner20.html It reports the fix could requi
113 Bennett123 : AirNZ I do not think that he is mentioning Airbus. If he is, lets keep clear of A vs B.
114 Post contains links RedChili : There's a whole thread discussing that article here: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4220151/
115 SpeedBirdA380 : Whoops. Sorry.
116 DocLightning : Not at all. With a delay of this sort, a customer only need mention the term "breach of contract" and the deposit is gone. As time goes on and delays
117 Stitch : Boeing is fundamentally changing both how they build airplanes and what they build them from. They should have only done one, but they didn't and the
118 RedChili : Perhaps, but a cancellation would anyway free Boeing from paying delayed delivery compensation, plus every cancellation will mean that all other cust
119 LMP737 : In all fairness to him he's not responsible for how the 787 program was set up. That was the doing of his predecessors.
120 LMP737 : Airbus didn't walk away from the A380 and neither will Boeing walk away from the 787. For either manufacturer to do so would have been disastrous.
121 LMP737 : And a good way for them to go the way of Convair, Lockheed and Douglas.
122 Manfredj : Exactly, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Perhaps I shouldn't have let readers decide which is which...surely you must have guessed that the 787 is the cam
123 RedFlyer : True, but he's been at the helm for over three years now (7 years if you count his time as a member of the BoD). More than ample time to steer the co
124 Alessandro : No turning back, this project is way beyond the B2707, customer is one thing, subcontractors another, imagine the penalties to the subcontractors if
125 Aircellist : How about the Chinese?
126 Alessandro : Chinese are busy with the ARJ-21, supposed to do the maiden flight before 2009. Japanese are busy with the MRJ, supposed to fly sometime in the future
127 Revelation : With 900 orders, we're no where near that point. Yes, but at the time, Boeing didn't have the 777 and 737 as cash cows. All their large defense jobs
128 Viscount724 : Please clarify what "horrible delays" you are referring to for the 747 project. I am not aware of any. When Pan Am's order for 25 747s in mid-1966 la
129 Alessandro : B747 together with the cancelled B2707 was doing the damage, the B741 had serious engine problems as well with the first commercial flight cancelled
130 Stitch : China is politically a no-go.
131 Viscount724 : The 741 could have benefited from another 6 months for engine development, but that was P&W's problem. I can't recall many early 747 problems involvi
132 Post contains links Alessandro : OT, P&Ws problems became Boeings, just like http://www.spiritaero.com/about_us.aspx faulty nutplates become Boeings problem. Glad to hear that the B78
133 RedChili : There was a lot more competition in the market at that time. Nowadays, Boeing has only one competitor in this segment, and Airbus can impossibly fill
134 Astuteman : Correct. Just as the A320 and A330 have saved Airbus's bacon on the A380. I don't know why, because they are, today, and very successfully too. 737's
135 BuyantUkhaa : OK, I'll bite: so you think it is a bad decision for airlines to buy the 787 because it's too advanced?
136 Haggis79 : IMHO, their biggest mistake was to put marketing over engineering... relying on a very tight schedule from the get-go, keeping that infamous rollout
137 Manfredj : No, I'm stating that the 787 is the new 767, the bread and butter of the Boeing widebody sales.
138 AirNZ : Yeah, of course you always meant the 787 was the Camry, lol!!!!!! Good attempt there at spin to change your viewpoint.......failed miserably, lol!! N
139 Post contains images Stitch : I do not believe it was a case of "marketing over engineering". Remember when the 7E7 was first announced, Airbus' official response was a    since
140 Manfredj : Read the post thoroughly, Proof is in the pudding. The 787 delays aren't taken as badly as the 380 delays. The consumer doesn't compain about the del
141 Gorgos : I dont get this Ferrari / Camry metaphore. You need three of your beloved camrys to fill one Ferrari, so that would in fact make the Ferrari a Bus
142 FrmrCAPCADET : Farrari Camry metaphor is really not so apt. If we must use a automotive one it would be Corolla Odyssey
143 KochamLOT : I love Boeing. But you have to admit, this news is getting old! Just like America and the economy. On the flipside, why not make this into an opportun
144 DocLightning : Really? Seems like the airlines have been doing the announcing of the delays. I think they're getting mighty disgusted. I don't understand why. Did t
145 SA7700 : That's quite strange. I was in the Boeing Plant yesterday and saw work being done on at least 4x T7's (2x EK, 1x VA & 1x CX), 3x 744ERF's and 3x 787'
146 Tdscanuck : True...the 747 could have actually bankrupted the company. The 787 can't. So, in that sense, this is much better. That's true, *if* they could pull i
147 EPA001 : That is totally correct! They even worse Especially when the production ramp-up in Seattle and around the world goes as smoothly as they are now cons
148 UAL-Fan : The US Government will just plow a few billion into Boeing just like it's doing with all other aspects of the US economy and industry if they get in t
149 Astuteman : I reckon he did. Still, the A380 likened to a "Ferrari" as opposed to just another "cooking" vehicle? Works for me Have a feeling I answered that fur
150 Swallow : Yes We Can!
151 MCIGuy : I think that's all but a given at this point. Of course, Boeing isn't forced to do it even with the problems and the backlog, but I'd have to say the
152 Bongodog1964 : This scenario is just plain wrong. To use your comparison with cars, the person buying the Camry is in all likelihood spending a far greater proporti
153 TrentXWB : Me too... I also really did not understand his comparison of B787 to a Camry and A380 to a Ferrari For me, Concorde was a Ferrari in aviation. But if
154 DocLightning : How do you know that? None of which are currently being delivered.
155 GDB : Perhaps they somehow hexed themselves with that bloody stupid name? 'Dreamliner'? C 'mon, you're Boeing, not Disney!
156 Stitch : I like that Boeing ties names to their aircraft in addition to just numeric designations. It makes the planes sound cool. "Worldliner" sounds cooler
157 EGCC777LR : Heard about the 737 holdup, but the 777 is still being delivered isn't it?
158 Ken777 : What a mess. I'm sure there is at least one Boeing engineer walking around without his testicles, if he (or she) is there at all. Airbus got hit with
159 AirNZ : I gotta say you have one 'unique' mindset and sense of humour......you ignore that the 787 can't even get off the ground, yet compare it to one of th
160 DocLightning : ONE this whole month. Just ONE. And with the new news that the fasteners affect the 777 line, I'm not even sure if that one is getting delivered.
161 474218 : If you can remember back about a month ago Boeing was on strike. All the aircraft on the flight line during the strike were delivered, but no new pla
162 Post contains links RedChili : How do you explain the following article? http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...tplate-problem-on-747-767-777.html
163 DocLightning : It has a bit to do with it, too. It also has to do with a degree of corporate incompetence that they are unable to deliver planes.
164 474218 : Yet somehow during the strike they managed to deliver all the aircraft that were on the flight line (out of the production hanger) at the start of th
165 BillReid : Airbus shuts down after EU government determines subsidies received were illegal and the company must pay over 130,000,000 Billion Euros back to the
166 Baroque : There just might be two basic errors in that suggestion?????
167 Astuteman : What are they? That the EU has "a Government", or that Airbus is a Company? Rgds
168 Nomadd22 : Ask the old folks how many times Joe Sutter expected to lose his job because he was about to tell the Boeing brass their idea was stupid. Maybe that t
169 GDB : True Stich, but 'Dreamliner' still sounds soppy to me! Like some kids toy.
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