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Eclipse Aviation Files For Chapter 11 Bankruptcy  
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6526 times:

You can't say you didn't see this coming. It appears Roel Pieper will be selling it all off to ETIRC. If they were smart they'd pull the plug on the Russian plant and try to get their damn house in order in ABQ, before galavanting off and expanding with out a care in the world. I feel bad for the employees, investors, and customers. Way to go Vern, way to go.


Eclipse Aviation files for bankruptcy protection

KOB-TV
updated 5 minutes ago

Eclipse Aviation, which has been struggling in recent months, announced Tuesday it is seeking court approval to restructure under the bankruptcy code.

Eclipse, maker of a very light jet called the Eclipse 500, filed for Chapter 11 protection in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware on Tuesday, and announced an agreement to sell its assets to an affiliate of ETIRC Aviation of Luxembourg.

... END EXCERPT


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27914305/

I give credit where it is due though. It was a novel idea, and Eclipse opened up the market. Unfortunately, poor execution and managerial incompetance allowed Cessna, Embraer, Cirrus, Piper, Honda Jet, and the light to eat their lunch. Wonder if Cessna will set up a deal to give out discounted Mustangs to angry E500 owners in a trade in. I'm sure the Eclipses can be melted down to make more Cessnas.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6437 times:
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Good luck to the employees.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Thread starter):
I give credit where it is due though. It was a novel idea, and Eclipse opened up the market. Unfortunately, poor execution and managerial incompetance allowed Cessna, Embraer, Cirrus, Piper, Honda Jet, and the light to eat their lunch.

Well said. Poor execution means that the price gap to the Cessna Mustang and Embraer Phenom 100 is basically closed. Since the Mustang met equipment/performance promises...  bigthumbsup 

The Pheonom 100 is likely to fill the space envisioned/launched by the Eclipse 500. Why? It has a few added features to cut costs in the high frequency "Dayjet" market. The Mustang is intended to be low cost when operated at the frequency of a typical Netjet's aircraft. They each have their comprimises to optimize for their specific target markets.

It should be noted that the Phenom 300 has outsold the Phenom 100. So Honda might be going after the right market...

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6385 times:

What is this supposed to mean? What will happen to the deliveries that are scheduled for this 2009 and for all the customers that are waiting for their planes to be delivered?

This really sucks, even though I don't feel absolutely out of place. Eclipse has been screwing this up since the very beginning of 2003 and these are the consequences.

Any info would be really helpful.

Thanks



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6371 times:

For the thousands of customers that had $150K USD deposits on hand, what happens to them? If you own an Eclipse what happens to you now in terms of re-sell value and after market support?

Cheers,
BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2253 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6299 times:



Quoting BP1 (Reply 3):
For the thousands of customers that had $150K USD deposits on hand, what happens to them? If you own an Eclipse what happens to you now in terms of re-sell value and after market support?

you're f %$&?d !

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6247 times:

Too bad for the people behind the company, the workers and the customers who already paid for these aircraft...


The other customers can go to Embraer and buy a Phenom 100. Same aircraft just from a known manufacturer and with a seperate lavatory.


User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6196 times:

They had a huge booth at OSH this year with even simulators being set up to emulate the jets. I flew a couple of them. Very sad indeed.

User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5856 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
The other customers can go to Embraer and buy a Phenom 100. Same aircraft just from a known manufacturer and with a seperate lavatory.

Not really. The Phenom 100 is a "real" aircraft, while the Eclipse 500 never really became of what a pilot, operator or mechanic would really love to own or work on.

Cheers
Legacy135  Wink


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5821 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 5):

The other customers can go to Embraer and buy a Phenom 100. Same aircraft just from a known manufacturer and with a seperate lavatory.

Same aircraft?!?! More like...a nice plane that I'd actually feel safe putting my family, coworkers, and myself in.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 7):
Not really. The Phenom 100 is a "real" aircraft, while the Eclipse 500 never really became of what a pilot, operator or mechanic would really love to own or work on.

Oops...took the words right outta my mouth!!



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5736 times:

Looks like deposit holders are shafted. It seems to be in the hands of the suppliers though. Hampson, IS&S have given up on Eclipse. If PWC decides "#$^# it" and the company that emerges out of chapter 11 wishes to continue with this aircraft, they'll be high and dry looking for a new powerplant supplier. This company has burned suppliers, but business is business. It's just a question of do you want to do business with a company that has no hope? That Roel Pieper still says the business plan is sound is just...disturbing. If it was sound, he wouldn't be filing Chapter 11 now would he?

Of course, has anyone else noticed that Roel, who runs Eclipse has immediately pressed for Eclipse's sale to ETIRC...which he also owns? Does this strike anyone as a little shady?

I knew that EASA certificate was too little too late.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6264 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5715 times:



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 9):
If PWC decides "#$^# it" and the company that emerges out of chapter 11 wishes to continue with this aircraft, they'll be high and dry looking for a new powerplant supplier.

They should call these guys up:

http://www.jetcatusa.com/

It would just require them to scale up their product slightly...  Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5673 times:
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Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 9):
If PWC decides "#$^# it" and the company that emerges out of chapter 11 wishes to continue with this aircraft, they'll be high and dry looking for a new powerplant supplier.

If a viable owner emerges, Pratt would be happy to sell them powerplants. (It might be cash on delivery...) The expensive part for Pratt is almost over. It would be best for them if a number went into the field.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 7):
The Phenom 100 is a "real" aircraft, while the Eclipse 500 never really became of what a pilot, operator or mechanic would really love to own or work on.

That is the crux of any buyer's problem. The cost difference is minimal and the Eclipse is still shy of equipment. As much as Eclipse deserves Kudos for starting the market... they didn't deliver a product that is viable. Even without the Phenom, the Mustang would easily kill off the product at this point.

Since Pratt has a related engine on all three... it looks like they hedged their bets ok.  Wink

Note: Its going to be a nightmare to service the few that were delivered. At this point it would be best if all of them were just donated to museums. Its not going to be economical to operate them for very long. (e.g., there is no longer a contract forcing the tires to remain in production. If there were enough E500's out there, the vendor would obviously be happy to keep selling tires. But with a miniscule fleet? Good luck finding a spare tire. I can hear the phone call now "yea, we'll make a batch in 2010..."

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6264 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5661 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
Its not going to be economical to operate them for very long. (e.g., there is no longer a contract forcing the tires to remain in production. If there were enough E500's out there, the vendor would obviously be happy to keep selling tires. But with a miniscule fleet? Good luck finding a spare tire. I can hear the phone call now "yea, we'll make a batch in 2010..."

And supposedly, Eclipse 500's blow main tires on a regular basis (due to the lack of an anti-skid brake system, standard equipment in most other bizjets...)  Smile

Maybe they should just use 6.00x6 mains like the majority of GA singles. I'll go in 50-50 with anyone who wants to come up with an STC for replacing the tires with 6.00x6's  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5611 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR

I sure would like to see someone purchase the EA-400 and revive it. Mooneyjet, perhaps?  eyebrow 

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21094 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5482 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
The other customers can go to Embraer and buy a Phenom 100. Same aircraft just from a known manufacturer and with a seperate lavatory.

The Phenom is quite different from the Eclipse. First of all, it's bigger. And second of all, your life insurance premiums won't go up as a result of flying in one.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 13):
I sure would like to see someone purchase the EA-400 and revive it. Mooneyjet, perhaps?

Perhaps. But it'll have to be cheaper than the CirrusJet, because the Cirrus beats it on cabin space, which I think most owners/operators will appreciate - the performance difference is unlikely to be that big.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5403 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):

Maybe they should beg Williams for forgiveness.  Wink

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
If a viable owner emerges, Pratt would be happy to sell them powerplants. (It might be cash on delivery...) The expensive part for Pratt is almost over. It would be best for them if a number went into the field.

Likely, but right now it looks like Roel and ETIRC will be taking over...with little practical change to the business plan. I don't know if Pratt would want to handle warranties and servicing for those 610s.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
Note: Its going to be a nightmare to service the few that were delivered. At this point it would be best if all of them were just donated to museums. Its not going to be economical to operate them for very long. (e.g., there is no longer a contract forcing the tires to remain in production. If there were enough E500's out there, the vendor would obviously be happy to keep selling tires. But with a miniscule fleet? Good luck finding a spare tire. I can hear the phone call now "yea, we'll make a batch in 2010..."

 checkmark  Suppliers have started bailing on EAC. And with only 200 some jets out there, none of which have all equipment installed, the EA 500 may end up like the Starship...only not missed. Heck the owners are not only shafted on support for what they have, but those IOUs are suddenly gone. No Avio 1.5, no FIKI, no nothing! Not unless they want to shell out more money. To get a complete jet...they'd have been better off forking over 2.5 mil on a Mustang.

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
Perhaps. But it'll have to be cheaper than the CirrusJet, because the Cirrus beats it on cabin space, which I think most owners/operators will appreciate - the performance difference is unlikely to be that big.

What's the status on the SJ50? I know Cirrus is in hiring freeze mode, in addition to some layoffs. Has that affected the Vision's certification process?

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5335 times:
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Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 15):
the EA 500 may end up like the Starship...only not missed.

Great analogy. Customers loved the Starship. However, there were simply too few out there; it was cheaper for Beech to buy them back than to develop the maintenance plan.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 15):
To get a complete jet...they'd have been better off forking over 2.5 mil on a Mustang.

Sad but true.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 15):
Maybe they should beg Williams for forgiveness

Ironically, Eclipse ditching Williams might have been to Williams' advantage.  spin 

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5184 times:

All this stuff gives me the creeps. I can't believe how unefficient EA has been over the last few years.

Now, since the whole deal went into Chapter 11, what's going to happen to the people that has paid 60% plus other deposits and is scheduled to have the aircraft delivered in January 2009?

As far as I know, EA sent a letter saying that they have enough resources to build and deliver planes as far as Jan '09, but the thing is that after that, there is no guarantee. They state that the new company that's taking over EA will have to make a decision.

One of the things I saw is that guarantees and maintenance programs won't be assured. This whole deal could be really bad.

Some help would be appreciated.

Thanks



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5138 times:



Quoting 797 (Reply 17):
Now, since the whole deal went into Chapter 11, what's going to happen to the people that has paid 60% plus other deposits and is scheduled to have the aircraft delivered in January 2009?

Concerning Chapter 11, I think Russ Niles summed it up best...

November 25, 2008

Should Pieper Retain Eclipse? Email this blog |Print this blog

By Russ Niles





Eclipse Aviation's bankruptcy has been a foregone conclusion for so long that when it actually occurred it was anticlimactic. A few things make it better than average as bankruptcy stories go, and one is current CEO Roel Pieper's apparently clever (we'll see) attempt to secure his own approximately $100 million investment and take over the company.

My understanding of Chapter 11, Title 11 of the U.S. Code is that it gives the existing operators of the company the breathing space they need (under supervision of the court) to restructure the enterprise to make it profitable. But Pieper's plan appears to be to ask the court to end the annoying phone calls and lawsuits so his company in Luxembourg can take over and get on with business.

That sounds suspiciously like a Chapter 7 liquidation, except that in this case the winning bidder is preordained.

...


http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/A...er_EclipseBankruptcy_199292-1.html

Basically, those depositors are unsecured creditors.

Quoting 797 (Reply 17):
As far as I know, EA sent a letter saying that they have enough resources to build and deliver planes as far as Jan '09, but the thing is that after that, there is no guarantee. They state that the new company that's taking over EA will have to make a decision.

I wouldn't believe anything this company says now. Their track record for honesty is zilch, and it's clear they have no clue what they are doing aviation industry wise.

Quoting 797 (Reply 17):
One of the things I saw is that guarantees and maintenance programs won't be assured. This whole deal could be really bad.

Some help would be appreciated.

Scream out loud. I'm not kidding, if you're a deposit holder, you need to make your voice heard in the bankruptcy court proceedings. Otherwise you'll get squeezed out by PWC, Hampsons, and shareholders. Try to find out more from the bankruptcy court in Delaware. From Eclipse's press release...



...

New York-based Greenhill & Co., Inc., a leading independent investment
bank with proven expertise in mergers, acquisitions and restructurings,
has been retained as financial advisor to Eclipse Aviation. Inquiries
into the Eclipse Aviation sale process can be directed to Brad Robins,
Greenhill & Co., Inc. at 212-389-1567 or brobins@greenhill.com.


http://www.eclipseaviation.com/company/news/news.php?c=1&id=1399

It's a start, but beware that this guy cannot be trusted if he represents Eclipse. I would ask for the names and numbers of lawyers and the like for creditors.

Good luck!

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineDw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1254 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5125 times:



Quoting 797 (Reply 17):
As far as I know, EA sent a letter saying that they have enough resources to build and deliver planes as far as Jan '09, but the thing is that after that, there is no guarantee. They state that the new company that's taking over EA will have to make a decision.

Not many people in the industry still trust Eclipse. I know I haven't believed any of their PR efforts for the last 18 months or so. I can't go in to details, but I even told my boss late last year there was no point in designing products specifically for the E500.

I remember you had been looking at getting an Eclipse, but I thought you were also investigating the Mustang and Phenom still? If you already made payment on the Eclipse, you could be in trouble. As I see it, its a bit more complex than a typical bankruptcy. First, you already have another company vying for the assets, and it seems like the chapter 11 is merely a way to shed some debt before the acquisition. It is up to the court to decide if they will let them get away with the devious little move.

Second, though position holders are relatively low on the totem pole when it comes to bankruptcy, Eclipse also needs to keep them happy. If they have any intention of restructuring, they need to keep the customers coming. I can't imagine many buyers would be willing to loose their deposits during the bankruptcy process and then turn around and buy a plane from whatever emerges at full price.

That said, they might not have a choice, but for once I think Eclipse may be looking out for its customers, if only because of its own self-interests.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5059 times:



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 19):
I remember you had been looking at getting an Eclipse, but I thought you were also investigating the Mustang and Phenom still? If you already made payment on the Eclipse, you could be in trouble. As I see it, its a bit more complex than a typical bankruptcy. First, you already have another company vying for the assets, and it seems like the chapter 11 is merely a way to shed some debt before the acquisition. It is up to the court to decide if they will let them get away with the devious little move.

Yes, that´s correct. We got into the EA500 and seems like the horizon is quite dark, to be honest. We received the letter from Eclipse yesterday regarding their Chapter 11 situation, and it doesn't look too good. They were quite aggressive and drastic, as well as discouraging.

In a short summary, they said that until the new company takes over Eclipse, no decisions will be made... so seems like in January we'll be able to know what's going to happen. I'm not to optimistic to be honest.



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4759 times:

So is the kitplane path possible, if you assemble the plane yourself and says it´s exprimental, you can surely make adjustments as you go?

User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4730 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 6):
They had a huge booth at OSH this year with even simulators being set up to emulate the jets. I flew a couple of them. Very sad indeed.

You caught the 400 doing the loop, right?? That was a surprise.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 9):
IS&S have given up on Eclipse

Yea and it's quiet sad. My dad has put over a year of work into the AVIO NextGen and it's all been for nothing.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4701 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 22):
You caught the 400 doing the loop, right?? That was a surprise.

Indeed it was. I'm still kicking myself for having the wrong autofocus mode set in my camera.  Sad

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4632 times:



Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 22):
Yea and it's quiet sad. My dad has put over a year of work into the AVIO NextGen and it's all been for nothing.

Well blame Eclipse's management. Great concept, but pathetic execution. In the end Raburn squandered resources and blamed everyone but himself for his mistakes.

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 22):
You caught the 400 doing the loop, right?? That was a surprise.

The 400 looks cool, but I doubt it'll ever get into production now. Doesn't seem as nice looking as Cirrus' SJ50 anyway.

SEJs like the 400 and SJ50 Vision might be the way to go in the future of VLJ with Phenoms, Mustangs, and HA420s taking over the upper end of the sizing order. At least, IMHO.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7929 posts, RR: 5
Reply 25, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4514 times:

I think the biggest problem with the Eclipse planes was that once the Cessna Citation Mustang and EMBRAER Phenom became available, the Cessna and EMBRAER planes pretty much took over the market that Eclipse wanted. Even if the economic situation was better, Eclipse could not keep up with the well-established service network Cessna and EMBRAER has for their new mini-executive jets.

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