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El Als 5th 744 - Why No Full Livery?  
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6870 times:

El Al took delivery of its 5th 747-400, 4X-ELE. The aircraft is in service now but does not wear the full livery. El Als livery is very simple, so I find that quite strange. Is anyone from El Al here who can tell why that is so?

http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/viewphoto.main?LC=nav2&picid=5256

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6810 times:

What's wrong with that? Saves money, and time. Put it in service asap. Besides, how many people really see the livery on the airplane at the airport?

User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6776 times:



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 1):
What's wrong with that? Saves money, and time. Put it in service asap. Besides, how many people really see the livery on the airplane at the airport?

With a "I dont care"-statement like that I wonder I you´re right on this forum, sorry. As I said, El Als livery anyway is cheap and easy to paint, so whats the use of not doing it right?


User currently offlineTonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1437 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6715 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 2):
With a "I dont care"-statement like that I wonder I you´re right on this forum, sorry. As I said, El Als livery anyway is cheap and easy to paint, so whats the use of not doing it right?

413X Does have a point!
Maybe they need the aircraft pressed in service ASAP and feel it warranted not to paint the aircraft just yet. It is heading into the busy winter travel period and EL AL is no exception. Perhaps it is more important to have the aircraft pressed into service then have it spend days in a hanger getting painted.
Also this is not the only aircraft EL AL dont have in full livery and from a security perspective, its perhaps safer not having it emblazoned in full colours! Although I am sure that is not the reason.



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineQ120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6579 times:

That livery is almost complete anyways, its got the titles and tail, that's all required for now.


However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlineKLAM From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6411 times:

According to previous posts, EL AL was a bit short of aircraft, so I guess they just rushed through it, and will finish the paintjob later.
Does anybody know what's the name of this airplane?

greetings,
KL-AM



flyOM
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3592 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6398 times:



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 1):
With a "I dont care"-statement like that I wonder I you´re right on this forum, sorry.

Not everybody on A.net is a plane spotter and cares about liveries. Many members are more interested in the business aspects of commercial aviation and information related to their frequent travels.

I have personally never understood the obsession of some with the paint jobs on aircraft, but if they find enjoyment from looking at liveries and tracking or logging planes, then to each their own.


User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6385 times:



Quoting NA (Thread starter):
El Al took delivery of its 5th 747-400, 4X-ELE. The aircraft is in service now but does not wear the full livery. El Als livery is very simple, so I find that quite strange. Is anyone from El Al here who can tell why that is so?

LY does this from time to time, I have no idea why maybe it is not staying long (lease) or because they needed it asap, It could become a logo jet but I don't think so.


nothing new at LY.



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User currently offlinePsimpson From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6255 times:

I can only presume ELAL wanted to operate this aircraft ASAP hence the full livery not being applied. I have noticed that when ELAL acquires a B747 from Singapore Airlines it always seems to be operated in white livery, just look at the 2 former SQ 747F and former 744 4X-ELS. Hopefully ELAL will get round to painting the 744 4X-ELE in full livery as well as the 763 4X-EAJ. The cargo 747F will not carry full ELAL livery since they do operate on the sabbath.

User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2286 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6194 times:



Quoting NA (Thread starter):
Why No Full Livery?

Because every flight is half empty anyway...  Wink

Seriously, though, one possibility that nobody has mentioned so far is that it has something to do with an upcoming D-check.

Quoting Tonystan (Reply 3):
It is heading into the busy winter travel period

Actually, November-February is the low season for travel to and from Israel.

Quoting KLAM (Reply 5):
Does anybody know what's the name of this airplane?

According to Airfleets, it's Rishon Le-Tsion.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5303 times:

EL AL usually always does things a bit their way. As far as I know the interior is also not updated yet which might not necesarely be a bad thing considering it's a ex SQ aircraft  Wink

User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5254 times:



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 1):
how many people really see the livery on the airplane at the airport?

You don't know too many people here do you?  biggrin 


User currently offlineQ120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5217 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
Because every flight is half empty anyway... Wink

Seriously, though, one possibility that nobody has mentioned so far is that it has something to do with an upcoming D-check.

That is a good point, although D-checks are now a thing of the past.
Now its all C-checks, similar to the D-check, the C-check allows carriers to do the inspections during certain intervals. The new program was introduced by Boeing I believe when they introduced the 757/767 models.

I'm sure some countries or carriers still practice D-checks but they are usually more expensive than the aircraft it self. (such as Dc-8/9/10, B707,727,737-200..etc..)



However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlineKochamLOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4484 times:

I have heard everyone here say something like it doesnt matter but if it didnt matter it shouldn really matter if ANY aircraft get painted as it is 'just a hassle' and adds cost both in paint and in fuel.
El Al does this often. I dont know why. Might it not hurt them not to have titles because an israeli aircraft may be a target for a terrorist attack? Perhaps it serves more than the purposes stated above.


User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3916 times:



Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 13):
Might it not hurt them not to have titles because an israeli aircraft may be a target for a terrorist attack? Perhaps it serves more than the purposes stated above.

I dont think so , They stoped flying unmarked aircraft in the late 70's early 80's because they felt there was no longer a need to do so due to security. Besides you can look at the reg and know where the aircarft is from.

However your thought is not unfounded ,LY does not order, or they try to disable The logo light for the tail for the reasons you point out.



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User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3746 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
You don't know too many people here do you?

I know the strange obsession people have with liveries, but I'm talking about the general paying public and how they do not notice or care


User currently offlineBmiBaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1810 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3619 times:



Quoting KLAM (Reply 5):
Does anybody know what's the name of this airplane?

"Rishon Lezion" I believe.


User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3395 times:



Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 13):
Might it not hurt them not to have titles because an israeli aircraft may be a target for a terrorist attack? Perhaps it serves more than the purposes stated above.

Even if LY would have a completely white aircraft it is more than easy enough to figure out to whom that plane belongs too, hence the reason is definetly only due to some maintanance planing or even the plan to keep the aircraft only for a limited amount of time.


User currently offlineShlomoz From Israel, joined Jun 2000, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3371 times:

Over the past few years aircraft that LY has purchased "used" have only received the logo and the tail without the fuselage stripe. That's true of the used 763's they bought relatively recently and is now true for 4X-ELE.

I don't really know why they do this. I doubt it was a time delay issue since they do it with all their second-hand a/c and 4X-ELE was parked in the hangar for at least 10 days when it first arrived into TLV. I can only hypothesize that the tail and front logo are fairly easy applications and hence they are done "in-house" by LY Tech, whereas the ribbon must somehow be a complex application that requires a real paint facility which "comes with the plane" when they buy them spanking new.

The exceptions, as far as I know, are:
- the ex-North American 757 they bought a while ago which is still flying around with a dark blue bottom, an El Al logo that is patchwork and without the Israeli flag on the tail.
and
- 4X-ELS, no longer with El Al, which they never owned but only leased for about a year. That plane cam from SQ, got a solid white paint job and only got an El Al logo on the front sides, no ribbon and no flag on the tail.

BTW - there is still one 757 flying around with the old livery.

All this is true of LY's passenger aircraft. The cargo birds are a different ball game.


User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3237 times:



Quoting Tonystan (Reply 3):
and from a security perspective, its perhaps safer not having it emblazoned in full colours! Although I am sure that is not the reason.

Indeed, security is not the reason, and it has even nothing to do with security.

And frankly, the tail logo is enough to clearly see that it is an El Al plane... This was also the case with the beautiful old livery.

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 14):
They stoped flying unmarked aircraft in the late 70's early 80's because they felt there was no longer a need to do so due to security.

El Al did not "stop flying unmarked aircraft in the late 70's early 80's", rather the opposite. In the late 1980s and throughout the 1990s, many El Al planes were operating without titles and without the Israeli flag on the top of the tail. Also then, it had nothing to do with security. The policy was that if an airplane was not operating an El Al flight, it couldn't bear the titles nor the flag. Among the pax jets, only the 707s, 737s and 757s were operated with this modified livery...I have never seen an El Al 744 or a pax 742 or a 767 operated without titles and flag (with the exception of Operation Salomon in 1991, when those planes were not operating El Al flights).

Why the 707s, 737s and 757s? Because those planes were often operating flights either for Arkia or for Sun d'Or and thus, as explained, the titles and flag had to be removed.

El Al had 2 732s and I remember seeing them often in GVA, sometimes with the titles and flag, sometimes without. But from the early 1990s until their retirement, they were permanently without titles and flag, even so when operating regular El Al flights.

Quoting Shlomoz (Reply 18):
- the ex-North American 757 they bought a while ago which is still flying around with a dark blue bottom, an El Al logo that is patchwork and without the Israeli flag on the tail.

I guess you are talking about the ugly 737 which joined the fleet in...2002.

Quoting Shlomoz (Reply 18):
BTW - there is still one 757 flying around with the old livery.

Yes.....10 years after the livery change...

It is 4X-EBS........I'm so excited every time I see it.....it looks so striking.......so impressive.......!!!!!!!!!



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3230 times:



Quoting Shlomoz (Reply 18):
I doubt it was a time delay issue since they do it with all their second-hand a/c

Oh not true,


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Quoting Shlomoz (Reply 18):
- the ex-North American 757 they bought a while ago which is still flying around with a dark blue bottom, an El Al logo that is patchwork and without the Israeli flag on the tail.



Soon to be repainted....finally!

Quoting Shlomoz (Reply 18):
BTW - there is still one 757 flying around with the old livery.

Soon to be retired... like all 757's.



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User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3006 times:



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 15):
know the strange obsession people have with liveries, but I'm talking about the general paying public and how they do not notice or care

Nothing strange, I find unliveried aircraft or aircraft in a non-uniform look and hybrid schemes look shabby and bad for an airlines image, yet they have to carry this look temporarily due to various reasons pointed out in other posts here i.e immediateley put into service, short term lease, heading for a check soon after being inducted into service, on rare occassions a lease agreement prevents an airline to apply its full livery to an aircraft this happened in PIA-Cathay Pacific 747-300 deal in 1999 because CX were not sure if the deal would last due to PK's bad financial situation, so they would have had to fly them in basic livery of white aircraft with green tail and logos, that is why PK tried to change their livery to incorporate the eurowhite look in a better manner with a floral tail design on all their fleet but it didnt last and only a few aircrfat were paimetd in it, for about a year, then the un-caring new management that came in decided to revive their older outdated livery and operate the 743 fleet in eurowhite look with plain green tail for the next four years even after purchasing them off CX after two years, it looked quite shabby more so back then they were PIA's flagship aircraft flying premium routes.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2989 times:



Quoting 777way (Reply 21):
Nothing strange, I find unliveried aircraft or aircraft in a non-uniform look and hybrid schemes look shabby and bad for an airlines image

Exactly. An airline regularly operating half-painted aircraft or patchy paintwork expresses negligence and non-professionalism with it, nothing else. These few bucks saved there they should save somewhere else where the passenger or professional observer doesn´t see it.


User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2920 times:



Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 19):
...I have never seen an El Al 744 or a pax 742 or a 767 operated without titles and flag

Well just look above 4X-ELS!

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 19):
Indeed, security is not the reason, and it has even nothing to do with security.

But it was....Fact.

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 14):
They stoped flying unmarked aircraft in the late 70's early 80's because they felt there was no longer a need to do so due to security.

Let's make this clear. Flying unmarked aircraft for SECURITY reasons ENDED late 70's early 80's.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 19):
Why the 707s, 737s and 757s? Because those planes were often operating flights either for Arkia or for Sun d'Or and thus, as explained, the titles and flag had to be removed.



The 742 was also operated on behalf of SunDor and carried full LY titles, mostly without a Sundor decal.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 19):
But from the early 1990s until their retirement, they were permanently without titles and flag, even so when operating regular El Al flights.

They were used from time to time by the IDF.



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User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2852 times:



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 23):
security is not the reason, and it has even nothing to do with security.

But it was....Fact.

In no way.

But maybe you can explain to the audience in what the absence of the titles and of the Israeli flag could be a "security measure" while even without those elements it remained obviously clear that those airplanes belonged to El Al...??

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 23):
Let's make this clear. Flying unmarked aircraft for SECURITY reasons ENDED late 70's early 80's.

First of all, it is not what you have written.

Secondly, it is not true. And frankly, if it was, it would be highly ridiculous... A cheap but totally unefficient anti-missiles system replacement.

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 23):
But from the early 1990s until their retirement, they were permanently without titles and flag, even so when operating regular El Al flights.

They were used from time to time by the IDF.

Maybe but in any case not very often since El Al had only 2 737s and they were HEAVILY used to destinations all over Europe as well as to Cairo. And anyway, I don't see the connection with my quoted post.

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 23):
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 19):
...I have never seen an El Al 744 or a pax 742 or a 767 operated without titles and flag

Well just look above 4X-ELS!

Well just look at it again...and you'll notice that 4X-ELS is operated WITH the El Al titles.



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
25 DUALRATED : But without the flag on the tail!! I can, but I won't because it has nothing to do with this thread, Now if you want to start a thread about ELAL sec
26 Post contains images TodaReisinger : This 744, which El Al btw was only renting for a limited period, was NOT operated "without titles and flag" since there were the titles. But anyway t
27 DUALRATED : HMM not one of these aircraft is unmarked is it? IS IT? so until you understand what unmarked means If you want an answer I told you what to do....ca
28 TodaReisinger : We are talking about El Al airplanes flying without the titles "El Al" on the fuselage and without the Israeli flag at the top of the tail (old liver
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