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DOT Awards US DCA-CAK Slots  
User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5414 posts, RR: 7
Posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6728 times:

DOT tentatively awarded US two DCA-CAK slots with the proviso that US file schedules within 10 days and commence service by Jan 25, 2009. The competing application was Midwest for DCA-MKE. Neither airline's application met the criteria for the slots especially well, but US's at least was for service to a new point.

In a "welcome to the bigs" sort of comment, DOT said that Midwest, which may lose leased DCA-MKE slots in 2009 and which is substantially owned by DL/NW, had access to the new DL's hoard of leased-out DCA slots and should look there if they wish to preserve service to MKE.

I said in another thread that DL, now the largest airline, should not look forward to winning competitive route awards as any matter of entitlement. This is, indirectly, the new DL's first loss.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6684 times:



Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
In a "welcome to the bigs" sort of comment, DOT said that Midwest, which may lose leased DCA-MKE slots in 2009 and which is substantially owned by DL/NW, had access to the new DL's hoard of leased-out DCA slots and should look there if they wish to preserve service to MKE.

How many DCA slots do they have leased out? I know US had a few NW slots but is it alot?
IMHO DL should take these slots back and start flights with them so they can get more slots.



yep.
User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5414 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6667 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 1):
How many DCA slots do they have leased out?

The DOT referred to it as "one of the largest slot-holding portfolios at DCA"; the exact number was not stated.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6651 times:



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 2):
The DOT referred to it as "one of the largest slot-holding portfolios at DCA"; the exact number was not stated.

I would say they are at a strong number 3 after US and AA. Inless DL and NW both have a s**t ton of slots leased out.



yep.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6642 times:

AA is DEFINITELY not the second largest slotholder. NW is... by a long, long shot, with nearly 130 a day.

NS


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6611 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
AA is DEFINITELY not the second largest slotholder. NW is... by a long, long shot, with nearly 130 a day.

really? no way NW has 130 fligths a day...........who in the hell do the lease that many slots to............Don't tell me its US.
So is it:
US
NW
AA
DL?



yep.
User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 6567 times:

Okay, and then, so what does it matter unless we across the board level it out, you're making it sound like DCA is the world or something, unless you're standard and we do this at all slot controlled airports, what does it matter how many US has or NW has?

I'm more sick of AA using their slots at LGA to fly to Tuscaloosa, AL or Minot, ND or Las Cruces, NM or wherever they might be trying this week just to hold onto their slot so it's not unused, but there's another rj flight to crowd the skies, ground and airtime. Every other month or so, we hear some stupid press release about AA and their NY commitment, I'm so sick of AA and their announcements. All slots should simply be, use or lose, if you don't, then we take them, if you do, then set some min req like 6 months or somehting, that way for being so stupid, then AA has to lose their a_s for adding such stupid markets on a rotating basis just to keep the slot.


User currently offlineCitrusCritter From Pitcairn Islands, joined May 2007, 1098 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6503 times:

Who does YX lease their slots from at present?


TLH
User currently offlineContrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6477 times:

How much demand is there for DCA-CAK? I'm sure it's a nice place, but it's not exactly high on my list of places I want to visit. Why does US want these slots?


Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineSRT75 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 6417 times:



Quoting Contrails (Reply 9):
How much demand is there for DCA-CAK? I'm sure it's a nice place, but it's not exactly high on my list of places I want to visit. Why does US want these slots?

NFL hall of fame. Deibold factory. A university. Probably enough to support an RJ.

I would guess it also may simply be a move by US to keep out competition at DCA, where it dominates.


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 6371 times:



Quoting SRT75 (Reply 10):
NFL hall of fame. Deibold factory. A university. Probably enough to support an RJ.

Not to mention First Energy, Goodyear and many more. IIRC, that area hasn't seen too steep of a spike in unemployment.


User currently offlineTAN FLYR From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1906 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 6338 times:

CAK has a catchment ares to the south of Cleveland, and to a degree to the east towards Youngstown. At some point, PIT takes over, just like to the south you are soon in CMH catchement area, but the idea probably is your not at CLE up against CO, and your not at higher cost PIT, and like someone said..you protect your slots.

CAK is probably much lower in cost for fees, leases, etc. that either PIT or CLE.


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6254 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 5):
really? no way NW has 130 fligths a day...........who in the hell do the lease that many slots to............Don't tell me its US.

Yes it is. NW bought EA's slots after they went Chapter 7. In 1992, NW sold the majority of those slots to US.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5414 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6123 times:



Quoting Contrails (Reply 9):
How much demand is there for DCA-CAK? I'm sure it's a nice place, but it's not exactly high on my list of places I want to visit. Why does US want these slots?

In its application, US forecasted 26,000 annual pax (19,000 O&D, the rest connecting at DCA) and a 70% L/F on a daily CRJ. It sounds potentially profitable, if fuel prices stay lower.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5397 times:



Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 6):
I'm more sick of AA using their slots at LGA to fly to Tuscaloosa, AL or Minot, ND or Las Cruces, NM or wherever they might be trying this week just to hold onto their slot so it's not unused, but there's another rj flight to crowd the skies, ground and airtime. Every other month or so, we hear some stupid press release about AA and their NY commitment, I'm so sick of AA and their announcements. All slots should simply be, use or lose, if you don't, then we take them, if you do, then set some min req like 6 months or somehting, that way for being so stupid, then AA has to lose their a_s for adding such stupid markets on a rotating basis just to keep the slot.

Maybe you should know what you are talking about first.

While AA has attempted service to markets like Cedar Rapids and Flint to no success; other markets like Madison, Des Moines, and Fayetteville have been operating successfully for many years.

DL and US also use LGA slots to small cities throughout the Southern United States.



a.
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4192 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 5):
really? no way NW has 130 fligths a day...........who in the hell do the lease that many slots to............Don't tell me its

No one said that NW has 130 flights a day. We are talking slots, a totally different thing. And I will tell you its US. Back to airline 101 for you.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7138 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4123 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 3):
I would say they are at a strong number 3 after US and AA.

I think DL has more slots than AA. US has about 50% of DCA operations and DL/NW has about 25-30%.

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 7):
Who does YX lease their slots from at present?

Probably ATA which will soon be WN.

Quoting Contrails (Reply 8):
How much demand is there for DCA-CAK?

None. FL might make it work, but US won't.


User currently offlineCa2ohhp From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4088 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 16):
None. FL might make it work, but US won't.

Yeah with all that connection feed FL has at DCA  Wink


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4033 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 12):
In 1992, NW sold the majority of those slots to US.

Sold or leased?

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
No one said that NW has 130 flights a day. We are talking slots, a totally different thing. And I will tell you its US. Back to airline 101 for you.

Ugh.........I'm not even going to try to explain it to you.........would rather try with a brick wall.


What about Delta? they use them all or lease them out to someone?



yep.
User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4012 times:

Just out of curiousity, suppose DL and NW terminated the leases on the slots leased to other carriers, rougly how many flights could they potentially add at DCA? And what would the total number of flights be with their current operations?

User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3891 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 12):
Yes it is. NW bought EA's slots after they went Chapter 7. In 1992, NW sold the majority of those slots to US.

Didn't NW try to build a DCA mini-hub with those slots? The leased or sold question is a good one.... Does anyone have an answer? Especially in light of the DL/NW merger. If simply leased, DL could easily grab a much larger share at DCA...


User currently offlineNWA757boy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3859 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 20):
Didn't NW try to build a DCA mini-hub with those slots?

Yes. It was a "focus city" if I remember correctly. The inflight service was called Starline Service or Starlight Service, I don't remember. Every flight had a meal, hot too if I remember right, and each tray set up and a wine split on it.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7138 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3815 times:



Quoting Ca2ohhp (Reply 17):
Yeah with all that connection feed FL has at DCA

That's a point, but the issue really is that CAK only works with low fares. US won't be cheap and the lure of driving down to CAK is low fares. If FL were in the market it would draw from CLE, but US will find no market for $500 rt. I know there are people for whom CAK is more convenient, but the vast bulk of the traffic is driving down from CLE to save money. If you don't agree with me, just look at the performance of the non-LCCs at CAK. They have withered. DL only stays because of its single-minded hatred of FL.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3769 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 18):
Sold or leased?

I am nearly positive it was leased.... mostly to US, but I think DL also picked up a few.

One way or the other, DL is now definitely the second largest slotholder.

NS


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3745 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 23):
One way or the other, DL is now definitely the second largest slotholder.

Do you know the number of slots DL will have?



yep.
25 Flyingcat : The DCA slots are leased not sold. I am hopeful that a merged DL might try and get back a few slots for service to LIT and PNS.
26 MasseyBrown : CAK averages 1,200 emplanements a day; and US is projecting traffic of 35 pax a day, of which 10 would be connecting. It shouldn't be too hard to fin
27 Mbm3 : These flights will do well if they are timed well and provide a financial incentive for greater Clevelanders to travel to Canton rather than CLE. As
28 N766UA : They couldn't make CLE-DCA work, I don't see why CAK-DCA would be any different. The competition from CLE is still there.
29 Mbm3 : I think the difference in this route would be that there is less direct competition from CO as well as a different catchment area. They are basically
30 EXAAUADL : NW tried to build a hub in DCA in 1992 or so. CO doesnt have a hub in CAK
31 Enilria : The existing market according to DOT is 3 passengers per day from CAK to DCA/IAD/BWI combined. The only way they will draw people from the "market" (
32 USPIT10L : Don't forget, before 9/11 UA tried IADCAK. It didn't work either. If that's the existing market, US has better things to do with DCA than use a point
33 MKENut : US is wasting this slot while YX would have fully utilized it. Within a year the route will be dropped and the slot will be returned.
34 Enilria : Keep in mind that since US Airways holds around 50% of the DCA slots, they have two goals. One is to make money with the slot and the other is to eli
35 SYfan100 : DCA is a hub for UsAirways. It is not like Philadelphia or Charlotte with International service, but it is a hub with a ton of flights daily to select
36 MasseyBrown : What did those three people do? Fly to PHL and connect? No wonder there were only three. The low number reflects the complete lack of service in the
37 USPIT10L : DCA has never been a hub for US Airways. It is a focus city, a large station with a heavy amount of flights. They don't do much connecting at DCA the
38 Gigneil : These days being operational... I agree, its always been a focus city, but there was quite a bit of connecting traffic at DCA in the heydays. NS
39 Bobnwa : At one time NW served BOS,MSP,DTW,MEM.TPA,MCO,FLL,RSW,MIA,MKE,IND from DCA.There were up to hts a day BOS-DCA and NW was close to taking over the Tru
40 ATCT : I could see the DCA-CAK flights being profitable for US. The demand for Akron/Canton/Cleveland/Youngstown areas to the DC market alone I would forsee
41 Ncflyer : I agree that CAK cachement area has enough demand to serve DCA, prior statistics on passenger counts notwithstanding. However, only one frequency per
42 Mbm3 : This will only work if the flights are timed for day trips, such as a 07:00 departure from CAK and 18:00 return.
43 Knope2001 : IND didn't come until much much later, but in the DCA mini-hub period after the acquisition of EA authority they also flew BDL-DCA and PVD-DCA for a
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