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XL/NZ A320 Crashes In The Sea Near Perpignan  
User currently offlineMAN23R From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 256 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 87135 times:

source http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/france/faits...-coule-au-large-de-perpignan-.html

"L'avion, qui effectuait des essais, a raté son atterrissage et coule au large du Canet en Roussillon. Cinq personnes sont à bord."


301 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 87224 times:

Five people on board - an Airbus test flight maybe?

God help them.

What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineMAN23R From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 87163 times:

sounds like it, hope this isnt true...

User currently onlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7461 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 87043 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Five people on board - an Airbus test flight maybe?


Yes. Just a crew of 5 on board. It was a training flight.

User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 87072 times:

translated text:

The plane, which performed trials, missed(failed) its landing and runs(flows) off Canet in Roussillon. Five persons are aboard."

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 87035 times:

Nothing on the newswires yet - ominous they know it was an A320 - usually such details come out much later.

What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86988 times:

Ditched, does that mean it was an emergency landing with some hope of the crew surviving?
Hope its not a crash, the Ethiopian 767 comes to my mind.

User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86981 times:

Was that an AF training-flight ot test flight out of the EAS premises ?

Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineMAN23R From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86983 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
Nothing on the newswires yet - ominous they know it was an A320 - usually such details come out much later.

my thoughts exactly, too much info too soon..

User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2533 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86987 times:

Which A320 was it? Was it the prototype A320?

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86977 times:

So would this be an Airbus crew and airframe or might it be AF or someone else doing touch and goes?

What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86913 times:

Quoting MAN23R (Reply 8):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
Nothing on the newswires yet - ominous they know it was an A320 - usually such details come out much later.

my thoughts exactly, too much info too soon..

Knowing the media's propensity for errors it was probably a civil Citation or Lear or something.

What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2534 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86661 times:

Quoting NA (Reply 6):
Ditched, does that mean it was an emergency landing with some hope of the crew surviving?

CNN just picked up on the story but isn't confirming anything; they cited AFP.


DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlinePilot21 From Ireland, joined Oct 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86674 times:

These headlines are starting to come across the newswires:



Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26388 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86631 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
Knowing the media's propensity for errors it was probably a civil Citation or Lear or something.

Including an error in the photo with this item. It's a very strange looking A320.

User currently onlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7461 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86334 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
So would this be an Airbus crew and airframe or might it be AF or someone else doing touch and goes?

It can be an Airline. A lot of them are training at PGF. unlikely an AF plane, as with the A320, they usually train at PUF.

[Edited 2008-11-27 09:27:10]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 22042 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86327 times:

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 4):
The plane, which performed trials, missed(failed) its landing and runs(flows) off Canet in Roussillon. Five persons are aboard."

Does this mean that it just overshot the runway and went into the water? That's a lot different than ditching.

Thankfully, it isn't too hard to get five people out of an airplane, provided they weren't hurt by the impact. I hope they all got out and are safe.


7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86346 times:

The plane used call-sign "stardust"..(following french forum "radiocockpit" ) -which could indicate the plane belonged to XL airways- but this is unconfirmed..!

[Edited 2008-11-27 09:16:41]

Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4312 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86141 times:

Pprune reports about 'Stardust' (not confirmed)
This callsign belongs to XL Airways Germany, which operates A320's...

"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineDelta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1335 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 86036 times:

GXL888T was the flight number, seems XL Airways Germany.

Troubled airline recently, remember engine emergency landing a few weeks ago.

Fly easyJet
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 85901 times:

Looking at google maps the airport is a few miles from the water so must have been quite a serious problem to ditch that far from the airport.

User currently offlineJetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 85908 times:

now we are hearing and air new zealand a320 has gone down and not an airfrance,, and they are saying 7 onboard

i can see for 80 miles
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2534 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 85925 times:

CNN is now claiming it's an NZ A320...hmmm. They don't sound very confident with their report and as well all now, it could mean anything. The update also says there were seven onboard at the time of the crash.


DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineEDDL From Germany, joined Dec 2002, 738 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 85933 times:

GXL888T A320-200 D-AXLA just did a testflight PGF-PGF ... now shown as "enroute to FRA".

User currently offlineCodyKDiamond From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 85966 times:

That would be D-AXLA then, lsd from ANZ. My hopes are with those onboard. It was the 2500th A320 and was the Freedom Air logojet as ZK-OJL.

[Edited 2008-11-27 09:26:03]

25 Eaa3 : according to wikipedia xl airways had one a320 leased to NZ. They must have been returning it.
26 EDDL : Airbus A320 -232 2500 ZK-OJL Air New Zealand ferried 27nov08 PGF-FRA in full cs, D-reg prior ferry to NZ ex D-AXLA Credits to skyliner-aviation.de
27 Post contains links Alessandro : Pic of http://www.airliners.net/photo/XL-Ai...C_&prev_id=1420460&next_id=1377195
28 Post contains links and images LH648 : Former XL Airways Airbus A320 to enter service with NZ on Dec. 1. according to Airfleets.net If XL and NZ are in reports and it was a kind of test fli
29 SailorOrion : On man. Translation from German newspaper "Die Welt": "Especially low cost carriers like British Easyjet use the A320" Media make me throw up ... Sail
30 SIBILLE : According a French website, at least one body was found..... Hope the remaining people on board are alive but it seems there is no hope as sea must be
31 Post contains links and images SXDFC : Technically they do View Large View MediumPhoto © Michael Eaton
32 Sketty222 : Too true, also it is dark out there, is it not?
33 Airproxx : A French TV channel "LCI" stated first that it was an AF A320, that crashed during a training flight (as AF uses Perpignan for training sometimes...)
34 SailorOrion : True, but the article sounds like it's a Wal-Mart aircraft that only crappy airlines use. Neither is the A320 used 'especially' by low cost carriers,
35 Bwest : I think he refers to the word "especially" as the A320 is in use with many non-lcc as well...[Edited 2008-11-27 09:53:42]
36 Myt332 : You know that wasn't the point.
37 LHRjc : Media state that French Navy boats and helicopters are now on scene, so let's hope for some survivors...
38 NA : Hopefully prematurely, skyliners reports the crew of 7 dead. That sounds likely. Also on skyliners, it is reported it carries the German registration,
39 David L : No mention on the BBC, Sky News or CNN since I saw this thread. I think the issue is with the use of the word "especially". It's also "especially" use
40 IAD787 : Confirmed.
41 Post contains links Plairbus : www.welt.de said that 7 person were on board and that they found allready one dead person, 6 are still missed. www.bild.de is talking about 5 person o
42 CURLYHEADBOY : It sounds like a deadly crash, news of "floating debris" (CNN) usualy mean there is no survivors, though let's hope for the best...
43 Post contains links Rheinwaldner : In NZZ there is a A320 from Interjet mentioned: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama...flug-ins-Mittelmeer/story/27199337
44 Flyingfox27 : Thats so sad, RIP to those who lost their lives and thoughts with their families. I hope they find the cause of the crash and stop it from happening a
45 Eaa3 : actually it seems that I was mistaken... it says leased from NZ. So who owns the aircraft and who was operating the aircraft.[Edited 2008-11-27 10:14
46 Post contains links Air NZ : On a New Zealand news site, they are mentioning Air NZ knows nothing about it at this stage. Released 12 minutes ago. http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/5366
47 EDDL : No wonder, apart from the colour scheme Air NZ had nothing to do with it ..........
48 Plairbus : How is it possible that no news about it must be easy to know wich aircraft did departure from the airport right? And was it a brand new 320 or an old
49 Ukkiwibird : Being reported now on NZ radio, problem with landing, one body found 6 missing. God bless them Crew unknown origin.
50 B747forever : Well if it was D-AXLA the aircraft is quite new, only 3years old
51 David L : If it was a training or "test" flight, etc, there might not be the same urgency for the operator to release details as there would be for a revenue f
52 Dufo : So much for having all those life jackets on-board :O
53 Kaitak : ANZ was the owner; the aircraft was being leased to XL Germany and being returned in time for the southern Summer season. The normal practice would b
54 NA : If indeed true, it was originally operated by Freedomair in a colourful special Looney Tunes livery.
55 Post contains links Planesailing : From BBC - went live 4 minutes ago. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7753270.stm
56 PlaneInsomniac : Terrible news. My thoughts are with the crew and their families.
57 Air NZ : On Radio NZ, they reported Air NZ currently doesn't know anything and are obviously trying to find out. Also that they have activated their Emergency
58 Legacytravel : RIP to all whom perished. Hopefull since they found the fuselage they will be able to get the black boxes and figure out what happened. Mark in MKE
59 Post contains links Air NZ : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_New_Zealand_Flight_901 Just seen in an article that today NZ Time is the anniversary of Air New Zealand DC 10 crash i
60 NZ1 : Hi everyone, D-AXLA, was indeed ZK-OJL prior to service with XL. It had just finished it's C Check, and was on a Acceptance flight, prior to returning
61 Post contains links Air NZ : From the Telegraph. "Five New Zealanders and two Germans, all technicians, were on board" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ht-crashes-into-Medit
62 Thai744 : TV One in NZ is now saying 3 of the dead were flight crew with Air NZ.
63 Planesailing : BBC News is quoting XL as saying: XL Germany said there were two flight crew from XL Germany and 3-5 engineers on board.
64 TheSonntag : At least the Telegraph has some serious, well told information available on the airplane... Sad news indeed.
65 MBJ2000 : RIP to the poor people on board... I also wonder, was there ever a case in the later years, where an aircraft ditched and people were able to survive
66 MayaviaERJ190 : Terrible news for all involved. As always the families are in our hearts. Why has media (Swiss or else) to be as irresponsible as to just use any imag
67 Post contains links Bennett123 : http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20081127-0 This is latest that I have. We can only hope that it was quick.
68 Bennett123 : One point that no one has raised is the water temperature, it must be pretty cold.
69 OPNLguy : The original thread title seems to assume a ditch, since the aircraft was in the water, while subsequent reports suggest a crash due to at least one
70 Air NZ : Air New Zealand are meant to be giving a media conference or release at 0830hrs NZDT Time, in 2 minutes.[Edited 2008-11-27 11:34:24]
71 Air NZ : Watching Air NZ media conference. Kiwis are 1 Air NZ captain, 3 engineers and 1 CAA inspector. If I heard correctly
72 NZ99 : Press Conference in progress as i write this The Aircraft has been in maintenance in Perpingon undertaking maintenance after operation by XL airways.
73 Bennett123 : Oh dear. Clearly great minds think alike.
74 AirCatalonia : 15ºC, not very cold. But the weather is indeed very cold these days around here. RIP to those who perished.
75 David L : Is that the water temperature or the air temperature?
76 Flyjetstar : Can I be so bold to say that some on here need to cut the media some slack. They are working with a breaking and developing story and as such can't be
77 Post contains links Nomadd22 : http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081127/wl_nm/us_france_aircrash The Pyrenees-Orientales prefecture said the plane was on a "technical flight" and was bei
78 AirCatalonia : That is water temperature. Air temperature is 5ºC at my house, 100km south the crash site. Let's hope there are survivors and they can make it to th
79 B747forever : Well it has been over 3hrs since the crash occurred. Do you think they can survive so long in the water??
80 Post contains links ChiGB1973 : Amazing enough, this article is about 15 C/59 F water. http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/med...roach/issues/marapr04/Survival.htm M
81 AirCatalonia : Well it doesn't look too good, especially since they have found some of them dead already. But who knows maybe they find the rest of them alive. The
82 Claudewilks : German state channel ZDF is stil showing a picture of an A320 in Airbus colours. They say it was an NZ plane flying for XL GERMANY. They report 3 bodi
83 NZ99 : Media in NZ saying there will be another press conference from Air New Zealand @ 1030NZDT (2130GMT-1) about the incident. Will report afterwards NZ99
84 BrightCedars : First flight after a check? Hope this isn't yet another case of forgotten duct tape... RIP to all those who perished in this accident today, and all t
85 Myt332 : GMT - 1, why?
86 NZ99 : No Further updates from press conference. Rob Fyfe (CEO) is still hopeful of survivors. The Aircraft had just been repainted in NZ livery, and therefo
87 Zkpilot : RIP to all onboard. The New Zealand media of course are jumping all over this making it sound like it was an Air NZ plane that crashed here in NZL fro
88 Post contains links Cumulus : BBC are a bit slow today! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7753270.stm
89 Cumulus : From Airbus:- Media Information on A320 flight accident (Issue I) 27th November 2008 Airbus regrets to confirm that an A320 operated by XL Airways Ger
90 Post contains links and images Sandyb123 : View Large View MediumPhoto © Benny Bartels RIP all who perished. Sandyb123
91 Midcon385 : Thoughts and prayers for the victims! RIP! Tim
92 TaromA380 : I'm asking myself, where are the countless software limitations that prevents an Airbus to ditch like that ? (ok I know we know nothing at this moment
93 NZ1 : I think it's a little premature to be asking a question like that when we don't know what happened. I personally know the 3 engineers involved, and m
94 Gonzalo : Hi, if the witness statement turns to be true, they plummeted into the water very quickly after a straight and stabilized flight. Probably only a few
95 MCOflyer : Sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to the rest of the families involved in this incident. Hunter
96 TDubJFK : Interesting how Airbus media release makes it sound like it was a commercial flight. Almost like theyre trying to distance themselves a bit from it.
97 EbbUK : Or perhaps telling it exactly as it is? No distance just facts
98 ChilliQueen : How immensely sad. I know that the general consensus is not to turn these threads into an "RIP Zone", but I do feel so much for those who have loved o
99 PlaneInsomniac : I have read it three times and I still don't know what you could possibly mean. They state clearly who operated and who owned the plane. This was don
100 JBirdAV8r : I really don't want to get into much speculation as I know next to nothing about the A320, but software won't do you any good if you have a catastrop
101 AAMDanny : Something serious must have happened to this Abus. 3 Engineers and two senior captains onboard. Im sure we will hear more when morning breaks.
102 Ukair : Why so many onboard if its a test flight? Is it really neccassary to carry 3 engineers, what would their role be? Is this normal? RIP
103 SunriseValley : If this observation is true, this has a very chilling similarity to the recent QF mishap in NW Australia., the difference being that the QF aircraft
104 Alangirvan : It also sounds a bit like the RAAF 707 at East Sale, but that happened for different reasons. I do not know if this A320 flight would have been carryi
105 NZ1 : Our Captain would have been observing the XL pilots to make sure the correct thing was happening up front, whereas the engineers would have been chec
106 Zkpilot : I was thinking a similar thought.... too early to speculate, but this is one of many possible scenarios... if it turns out to be this then there will
107 Post contains links DfwRevolution : I regularly swim in open water and I guarantee 15ºC water would suck the wind out of the average persons lungs. I'm not talking instant incapacitati
108 LH526 : I grew up on the pacific and went swimming in 15°C cold water ... it's cold in the beginnging, but one can get used to the temp quite quickly .... i
109 JBirdAV8r : Semantics perhaps, but I never implied that. I was just kinda implying there's nothing in the flight control system to automatically evade a controll
110 Maxisno1 : Terrible news. Condolences to the families and everyone who is involved.
111 Post contains links PlaneInsomniac : Search crews have officially given up searching for survivors: http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,593235,00.html RIP to all on board.
112 HAWK21M : What was the reason for this Test flight.Any special work was carried out? regds MEL.
113 Davescj : Would an airplane be able to successfully land on water? I can only think of the Ethiopian plane that crashed sometime back, and broke up on impact. R
114 LH526 : Pre delivery checks before lease to NZ, thus german pilots and some NZ engineers
115 Scarebus03 : All aircraft that are redelivered at end of lease will undergo a test flight to verify that all systems work correctly. The accident aircraft had unde
116 NZ1 : The aircraft had just finished a 3C check and repaint back into the NZ colour scheme. Acceptance flight was a normal part of returning the aircraft o
117 SKAirbus : RIP to all those involved... and of course their families at this terrible time so close to Christmas. It really sickens me how the Danish press haven
118 Oa260 : Here the news channels are full of the Mumbai terror attacks and rightfully so. There have only been small mentions of this crash so has been hard to
119 AirlinerFanPGF : Perpignan is often used by airlines for touch and go exercises with all kind of aircraft. And also is hometown of a maintenance company named EAS indu
120 Post contains links Acabgd : There was this Tunisair ATR that run out of fuel and ditched in the Mediterranean with 23 survivors. But yes, it's a turboprop with wings on top. htt
121 SKAirbus : Well the crash occurred after the aircraft had completed a C check/maintainence... Of course it is wrong to speculate but it could be interesting to
122 Zeke : FROM : AIRBUS FLIGHT SAFETY DEPARTMENT TOULOUSE SUBJECT: XL AIRWAYS Germany GmbH accident in Perpignan, France OUR REF.: D-AXLA AIT 1 dated November
123 Beaucaire : Hello Vini welcome on a.net,although the cause of your first post is a sad one.. I think I saw the aircraft still in front of the EAS hangar some day
124 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : Here's a list of "intentional" ditchings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditching
125 Jetfuel : We await the FDR and CVR...not much else to say. Anything else is just speculation
126 CHRISBA777ER : Truly horrible thing to happen - very sad. To to clarify - was the aircraft on approach or initial climb phase when it crashed? Also do we know if it
127 Post contains links SpeedBirdA380 : From Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0 "A witness told French radio he saw the plane dive abruptly an
128 Starlionblue : As far as I can recall no FBW Airbus (318-380) has ever been lost in a crash due to a fault with the aircraft itself. All crashes have been fundamenta
129 CHRISBA777ER : Hmmm. That sounds incredibly unusual. Lets indulge in some idle speculation here - i leared lots when people did it with the G-YMMM incident. No disr
130 AustrianZRH : Well, there are some disputes about the Habsheim crash, although the official report says pilot error. However, I'm inclined to believe official cras
131 CHRISBA777ER : The Mulhouse one was not down the A320 - it did exactly what it was supposed to do. The pilot should not have had it that low at that low energy stat
132 AAMDanny : Ok. So the A320 had a C check, that does a C Check involve on a A320. Would this be a major area of the investigation? The possibility that something
133 CHRISBA777ER : Complete overhaul of all the aircraft's systems - take the engines off the wing, take apart the hydraulics, overhaul the gear, bleed air, interior et
134 Legacytravel : Has anyone mentioned the depth at which the aircraft is located?? Will they have any problems recovering the black boxes? Let' s hope not. Regards Mar
135 Post contains images BuyantUkhaa : The only pic I found so far:
136 CURLYHEADBOY : Just about 30 meters, I could go that deep with my recreational diver license, so it should not be a big deal for professional divers. The french hav
137 Davescj : From what I've heard, the water was (relatively) shallow. I should think they will be found soon. Dave
138 PA515 : NZ1, your 03 October post in the New Zealand Aviation Thread had OJL leaving FRA at 1000 on 26 November and arriving AKL 1800 on 29 November, which w
139 Breiz : That was the reason for crashes into sea of A320s from Gulf Air and Armavia, and B737 from Flash Al. But the pilots were most probably less experienc
140 Starlionblue : Nope. Alpha floor protects from stalling. It does not care if the aircraft is nosing into the ground. Agreed. In any case as mentioned above the low
141 Gonzalo : IF it's true, probably same kind of impact in the fleets of the 737's rudder valves back in the 90's. According the witness, dived quickly from a sta
142 Post contains images ZSOFN :
143 Post contains links and images SpeedBirdA380 : Approximate crash location from Google maps: Also some pictures of the crash victims. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/im...bjectid=10545490&gallery_
144 SkyyKat : The witness mentioned an abrupt dive from level altitude, the Airbus just came back from a C-check. The weather was clear. Eye witnesses have been als
145 SSTsomeday : Acknowledging, as you say, that we are indulging in speculation, I was thinking about the Qantas 330 that suddenly and violently lost altitude recent
146 SpeedBirdA380 : Still no confirmed cause unless I missed something. There were rumours that a naval base could have caused interference with the planes computers. I
147 ZANL188 : NTSB will assist. Odd for an Airbus crash in France, but I guess the U.S. is a party to the investigation due Pratt & Whitneys involvement with the en
148 Eaa3 : Well there are a lot of a320´s flying in the US and if there is some problem then the NTSB will certainly want to be involved. These investigations
149 Davescj : I suspect Eaa3 is correct in saying NTSB is concerned for US aviation security. Also, NTSB has some incredible investigators for these kinds of trage
150 Viscount724 : The aircraft was bieng flown by XL Airways pilots. One NZ captain was on board sitting in the cockpit jumpseat.
151 LH648 : Who cares outside US what NTSB wants. They are involved because of engines' origin. Period.
152 Hiflyer : From the article: A gendarme who raised the alarm after he saw the plane go down said he watched as it suddenly went into a dive while flying at a he
153 Starlionblue : Why would pilot error be unlikely? Apart from the engines, they can certainly observe and advise. While they have no real "power", my guess is that i
154 SEPilot : From the sound of things I suspect either plane or computer problem. If it was premature flap retraction the plane wouldn't suddenly nose over; you w
155 SkyyKat : Clear sky's, good visibility. It seems unlikely but who know?
156 DJ738 : The tail was painted properly. Look at any picture of Air New Zealand's livery and you will see the koru fades out toward the rear.
157 Post contains links TGV : Apparently flight recorders were localized: "Les boîtes noires de l'Airbus A320 d'Air New Zealand, qui s'est abîmé en Méditerranée jeudi avec se
158 Starlionblue : There is that. And as SEPilot says in clear weather and so forth it is not challenging flying. However, pilot error is certainly quite possible. The
159 Post contains images SpeedBirdA380 : Many seem to be jumping on the therory that its most likely the Airbus computers crashed the plane. If this had been a Boeing I doubt there would be s
160 NZdsgnr : i believe that they have also altered the fading on the koru to just plain solid as it is easier to paint
161 Flyjetstar : There is an awful lot of speculation based on very few facts. People are willing to have a go at the media for speculating and yet come on here and d
162 Post contains links and images FlySSC : The last picture of D-AXLA, taken in front of the EAS maintenance hangar on Nov. 27th at 3:00PM, about 2 hours before the crash :
163 Kaitak : That's probably the only photo of this acft in ANZ livery, because it was delivered in Freedom Air c/s and continued in this c/s until it went to XL.
164 Post contains links Alessandro : Yes, the debri has been found in a 300 square meter area and the black boxes has been found at 34 meters depth, http://www.flightglobal.com/articles..
165 Legacytravel : With a depth of about 112 ft. black box recovery should not be that difficult, unless they are buried in silt. That last pic tacken of this plane give
166 Beaucaire : One of the two "black boxes" has been retrieved this evening,without indicating if it was the FDR or the voice-recorder..
167 Inbound : On my initial 737 training, we practiced over and over taking off with 1 reverser deployed after V1. Although it was the sim, recovery was not at all
168 FlySSC : Just announced in the News : One of the two "black boxes", the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) has been recovered. Divers have localized the DFDR (digita
169 Post contains links NZ560 : Source Rest of the update available by clicking on the link supplied.
170 Post contains links NZ560 : Hero Crew Sacrificed Lives To Save Town Click on link for the rest of the story. After this report it will be interesting to see what the outcome is.
171 Musapapaya : What is this EAS maintanence company? It seems small to me by looking at their website. Even though we have no evidence at the moment about anything,
172 SEPilot : While I consider the reaction that pilot error is most likely reasonable in most crashes, in this case I cannot, for reasons I stated in my previous
173 Post contains links Breiz : As usual, human testimonies are variable. In this article from a local newspaper, "L'Indépendant", two surf-boarders who saw the A320 crash, who ale
174 SEPilot : This is highly unlikely to be the cause, IMHO. Any airliner, especially with only seven people on board (and probably a small amount of fuel, conside
175 DJ738 : I stand somewhat corrected on my previous post about the koru fading out toward the rear. D-AXLA's koru did not fade for some reason? Perhaps it was
176 LHRSpotter : AA587 springs to mind, although it wasn't exactly "pilot error". As far as the PF was concerned he was doing everything by the book, however his comp
177 Pihero : Salut, Breiz. The article you linked us to is a lot more interesting than I thought as I generally take any eye- witness's declaration with a lot of s
178 Starlionblue : How does it seem dodgy? You judge this from their website? Come on... Yes and no. The PF had been criticized earlier for technique.
179 FlySSC : EAS is a famous maintenance company at PGF. They are very "serious" and competent, highly qualified and used by many airlines including Air France, T
180 Breiz : They must certainly be commanded for their reaction and actions. Pihero, based on your own experience what would cause an airliner to climb suddenly
181 Post contains links Oa260 : Black boxes found after air crash Searchers have found the flight recorders of an Airbus A320 passenger jet which crashed off southern France, killing
182 LHRspotter : Well, a captain had said something years ago, on a different aircraft type but it wasn't a formal warning from AA or anything like this. On 12 Nov 20
183 Alessandro : SEPilot, we can only guess what happened, perhaps involunteerly autoreverse like LaudaAir?
184 Post contains links FlySSC : This reminds a similar incident on a TAROM A310 approaching ORY back in Sept. 1994 ... < http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19940924-1
185 Post contains links Pihero : Bonjour, Breiz You put me in a difficult situation as I generally do not make any assumption before we have more information. So, I'm off into a tang
186 Qantas767 : The ALM DC-9 in the Carribean...
187 Post contains links Alessandro : Add this, http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000203-0
188 Musapapaya : Thanks for the info.... Its just that it is not as global an well known as the likes of LH and SR techniks therefore there was a little doubt on thei
189 Pihero : Scenario possible but highly unlikely as the flight controls are vastly different between a classic aircraft and an FBW one. Are there some hidden gl
190 FlySSC : Different causes may have same effects ...
191 Bongodog1964 : Having looked at their website, my interpretation is the exact opposite of yours.
192 Breiz : Pihero, sorry about that, and thanks for the explanation on the "chandelle".
193 AAMDanny : Is it possible that something 'fell off' the aircraft? Is it possible something was properly re-attatched like the AA DC10 accident where the engine w
194 Zkpilot : Elevator failure would result in aircraft pitching violently... if the eye-witness reports of engines going to full power are correct then perhaps th
195 SEPilot : While there certainly was some degree of pilot error, as well as inadequate training involved, the precipitating event was an encounter with a 747 wa
196 David L : Well, just for the record, my amateur mind can't help wondering if there's any significance in the fact that it all seemed to be going wrong as they
197 Scarebus03 : I would argue that the computers don't even come close to the prime suspect. Thank you Pihero for your excellent explanation above of a Chandelle. The
198 Bennett123 : AFAIK there was no relevant conversation with ATC. I do not know how important this is.
199 Starlionblue : It is very hard (impossible?) to stall an Airbus in Normal Law. It is, however, possible to put it in a low energy state so close to the ground that
200 Ruscoe : What about an autopilot induced uncommanded input? Although different aircraft and systems it does remind a little of the 330 which was lost during de
201 Starlionblue : That is sorta what many have been talking about. I must say, though, that Airbi have a history of such things not happening. We're not talking about
202 Post contains links Dehowie : Something everyone has missed is part of standard Airbus acceptance test flight program. Something this aircraft was completing. One of the tests is a
203 NZ107 : Is there any reason for the flight recorder being placed in a chilly bin for its travel to Paris? Or is it just easier to carry it in one of them?
204 Starlionblue : AFAIK recorders that have been immersed in water are kept immersed in water until they reach the lab. My guess is they want it to go through as few e
205 Scarebus03 : You're right it is almost impossible to stall the A320 in normal law, hence the activation of alpha floor before the wing actually stalls. Without al
206 Pilotaydin : do you think maybe they forgot to reengage the prim and sec computers? I'm very interested in this accident as ive flown the boeing for 1000s of hour
207 NZ107 : Oh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.
208 SEPilot : True, but I doubt it happens very often with experienced airline pilots. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened, but from the witness accounts it s
209 David L : But compared to the number of times control systems fail? OK, though I'm not sure which accounts to focus on. I was going from Pihero's translation o
210 FlySSC : They announced this afternoon that the DFDR has been recovered. It should not be long now before we can have more explanations on the reasons of this
211 Post contains links SpeedBirdA380 : More specualtion this time from the media but apparently the planes new paint job is being probed by investigators as a possible cause for the crash.
212 SEPilot : Actually, I know of several crashes related to control system failure (for one reason or another) but none in recent history where an airline pilot l
213 Pihero : Your reference is for the 330/340/380. On the Baby Bus, we talk of FACs and SECs ...Basically the same requirements but the architecture is different
214 Post contains links AF2323 : It appears the CVR is severely damaged and the investigators are not sure they will be able to get data from it... source Le Figaro (in french) : http
215 Pihero : Very true, but as they were coming back, It's quite natural to assume that they have completed all the required tests... Soooo true ! Unlikely. If th
216 Nomadd22 : Would part of the checkout be to put the elevator through it's paces? Any chance of an Alaska 261 like failure?
217 David L : Armavia, in the Black Sea springs immediately to mind. When you include loss of situational awareness in bad weather, the list becomes larger.
218 Pihero : And the GF A320 off the coast of Bahrain. Spatial disorientation is not that unusual.
219 Ukkiwibird : Bad news about the flight recorders though, it sounds form some reports the plane hit the water at a fair speed. This must make the identication of "b
220 NZ107 : They say they've recovered a third body from the cockpit area from what I've heard on the radio.
221 Starlionblue : Quite. I should have been clear I was making a statement of principle, not specifics.
222 Gonzalo : I think not. The AS261 crashed because the jack-screw assembly / nuts fail, and the absence in the MD 83's design of a fail-safe mechanism, AFAIK, th
223 Post contains links NZ560 : Source
224 Beaucaire : How can a CVR be severely damaged to the extent of not being exploitable when the aircraft crashed into the water from a relatively low altitude ? Man
225 Scouseflyer : From the initial reports, it sounds like the plane went striaght down into the water so there may have been a complete deceleration from 300+ kph to
226 AF2323 : That's also what I understand. And if it's indeed what happened, crashing into the water is no different than into a concrete wall.
227 Zeke : I am aware of no aircraft manufacturer that makes their own CVR/FDR, they are made by third parties, and often the same CVR/DFR manufacturers for bot
228 Sandyb123 : Surely the CVR is only part of the equation and is exactly that, a voice recorder. Whilst this will record reactions from the crew to the problems it
229 Starlionblue : As AF2323 points out, the surface of the water at these kind of speeds is pretty much like concrete for all intents and purposes. Heck, you don't nee
230 Hiflyer : Standards that recorders must meet are specified and are part of the certification process of the aircraft. The location on the airframe, the structur
231 N14AZ : If I remember correctly, the pilot had almost managed to regain control of his 737 when it hit the water surface. Most probably, the angel of impact
232 CURLYHEADBOY : That's interesting... I guess if there is some data on the CVR/FDR survival rate when no fire is involved (it is my understanding that the most of re
233 Zeke : The DFR normally tells you what (switches, engine parameters, speeds etc), the CVR tells you the why, or gives clues into the human factor. The crew
234 Post contains links Sebolino : The BEA, in charge of the inquiry, made the following communication yesterday: "Les enregistreurs de vol, phonique (CVR) et de paramètres (FDR), ont
235 Nomadd22 : Not to contradict the media experts, but they probably just mean that the units are too damaged to function. That doesn't mean the memory crads are ba
236 Post contains links NZ560 : Fourth Body Recovered From Air NZ Crash
237 HAWK21M : Scheduled readouts are carried out by Mx to ensure serviceability. regds MEL
238 Starlionblue : Certainly. But as anyone who has worked with computers will tell you, that only shows they were working during the service. Jokes aside, checking fun
239 Jetfuel : So now I hear they are looking at the new paint job as being a possible cause. Also the French have opened a manslaugter investigation
240 Babybus : The A320 is programmed to keep flying so someone must have seen it as the best option to over-ride the on-board computer and ditch. It's cold comfort
241 Kiwiandrew : dont read too much into this , I believe that this is standard under French law for any fatal accident still under investigation , from my understand
242 FlySSC : Indeed, that's just the normal procedure according to the French law, at the beginning of any investigation for this type of event. No conclusion on
243 Francoflier : It seems like it is going to be a tricky investigation. I hope they eventually come up with answers to ease the families' pain a little...
244 Pihero : And where did you find that interesting / astonishing piece of info ?
245 Ikramerica : no, from what I understand of French law, there is no such thing as an "accident" and all events that lead to loss of life have manslaughter or murde
246 Viscount724 : It wasn't a training flight. It was an acceptance flight following maintenance prior to being returned to NZ after the lease.
247 Tdscanuck : Any time you're talking about painting, pitot/static ports are an obvious culprit. In that case, with bad air data, it's entirely possible for the en
248 MillwallSean : I seem to remember another aircraft dropping parts on the runway. Thats why persons are being sought to clarify how this could happen. Now maybe its
249 David L : Thanks, Pihero - that's just what I was about to ask but you have more "clout"... obviously. Perhaps Babybus was being facetious?
250 Zkpilot : Thats a bit naive MillwallSean. Aircraft drop bits and pieces all the time all over the world including Europe! In fact usually everyday (often sever
251 David L : We'll never know how much of a "flaw" it was unless another type runs over an unauthorised titanium "blade" at such a high speed. It hadn't happened
252 DJ738 : It does? Do you have information to support this? Isn't is possible the CVR and FDR could well end up yielding all the answers necessary, therefore m
253 Zkpilot : Which is why they grounded all concorde's to get them retrofitted with measures to prevent something like this happening again...then grounding them
254 SEPilot : The final grounding was due to economics, not safety issues. It was simply costing more to keep them in the air than they could earn, even with astro
255 David L : There are several hundred posts elsewhere on these forums that deal with that.
256 Bill142 : Don't forget that Airbus stopped making spare parts.
257 Francoflier : Do I need a source to make an assumption? It could, and I hope it does, but generally with this type of investigation the FDR and CVR data have to be
258 Post contains links Zkpilot : "Black boxes reveal no clues to Airbus Crash" according to The Washington Post. There was a story run today in the NZHerald about it. http://www.nzher
259 HAWK21M : Thats Mysterious if true. regds MEL
260 Post contains links SunriseValley : The boxes are still to be analysed by Honeywell, the manufacturer. Check my posting to the current N.Z. thread and the link to the Wall Street Journa
261 Khobar : "a mechanic who used titanium in a place he shouldn't have." Define "he shouldn't have". If he knowingly used an improper piece and did a "do rightly
262 SpeedBirdA380 : What is similar about them? The only thing we still know about this crash was that the plane crashed into the sea with a few eyewitness reports.D How
263 SunriseValley : Both aircraft went into a dive. The reason for the QF incident is known, thus far the flight recorder on the A320 has not been analysed but the paral
264 SEPilot : I suspect that was a joint decision; if AF and BA had wanted to continue flying I suspect that Airbus would have provided the parts. But by stopping
265 AirNZ : No, not at all and you again are ignoring (putting very little significance on) the fact that your much repeated 'design flaw' would have had no bear
266 RussianJet : These 'parallels' you mention really amount to nothing more than that they both suffered mishaps during flight. A 'dive' could have about a million d
267 Khobar : Well, to be fair, the design flaw did exist - Concorde was not only known to be vulnerable to debris, but its tires had burst on previous occasions,
268 Tdscanuck : Stuff falls off airliners all the time. Usually very small stuff, occasionally very big and/or sharp stuff. There's a reason airports do FOD inspecti
269 RussianJet : Meanwhile folks, getting back to the dimly-remembered actual topic of the thread, have there been any recent updates as to the development of the inve
270 SpeedBirdA380 : I cannot find anything on the web. All we know is that the aircraft's black box recorders have been found but technicians have not been able to extra
271 SunriseValley : Did you read the WSJ link that I provided? It explains that Honeywell, the manufacturer of the recorders, has not had the opportunity, yet, to run te
272 SpeedBirdA380 : Not trying to be petty or anything but I did click the link you provided and I got an "URL not found message". But I believe you and I hope Honeywell
273 Jetfuel : We are all waiting on Honeywell for some news... Its definitely not good to have basically no clues in an accident like this
274 Ruscoe : Do we know who supplied the Avionics suite for this 320? Ruscoe
275 AirNZ : Yes, I would absolutely agree with you in principle. However, that is neither what the poster was stating, or implying, and hence the direction I pla
276 Jetfuel : News Update An emergency safety directive has been issued to airlines using twin-engine Airbus A320s after both engines on one stalled over the Medite
277 Zeke : I do not see the connection between the AD and the accident, different engines and aircraft, just another slow news day.
278 Zkpilot : Is it just me or are others getting more and more annoyed with the media for not getting their facts straight or in context. Yes Air New Zealand owne
279 SunriseValley : Are you sure the directive was issued for the A320? I thought it was for the A330.
280 Zeke : "Applicability: A318-111, A318-112, A319-111, A319-112, A319-115, A320-214, A320 215, A320-216, A321-111, A321-112, A321-211, A321-212, and A321-213
281 Alangirvan : Are Air New Zealand A320s fitted with ACARS? How many of the parameters that are measured in the Flight Data Recorder are sent to the Ground Base? Doe
282 Post contains links Zeke : Hopefully we are closer to getting some idea of what happened now. "Investigators trying to determine why an Airbus A320 on a maintenance flight crash
283 Osiris30 : Yes, but also: "Now, the recovered data is being sent back to France under unusually tight security, according to the same officials." and "Before th
284 Breiz : Come on! Not again. You base your suspicions on the slow pace of the investigation (it is not the first time, remember TWA 800?), the lack of informa
285 SXI899 : I get the idea that the problem was damage was to the connection points that you can plug into to access the data. With these damaged, the memory car
286 Post contains links Lumberton : According to this report, the wreckage may not be recovered. http://www.stuff.co.nz/4811812a11.html Wouldn't it be prudent to get all the evidence? Th
287 Osiris30 : No, not on that solely, but unlike TWA800 the wreckage was quickly located along with the black boxes which were easily recovered. The lack of 'answe
288 Post contains links Zkpilot : Breakthrough in Air NZ crash investigation France's air crash investigation authorities say they have recovered black box data from the Air New Zealan
289 Tdscanuck : It's actually not that unusual for the FDR and CVR records to have issues...they're checked on a relatively regular maintenance schedule, but it's en
290 SpeedBirdA380 : The cause of the crash is unknown. We don't know if it was a failure of the aircraft yet or not. You may be correct but lets wait for the facts to co
291 Osiris30 : True.. very poorly worded on my part.. I (truly) meant the cause was unknown, not to imply the aircraft itself failed necessarily. As I've said above
292 Zeke : They know where it is, it is not going anywhere. If the results of the CVR/DFDR are not conclusive, I am sure they will consider doing what you sugge
293 Pihero : That's not quite correct, Zeke : There's an "Instruction judge" who does what a general attorney would do in the US, who supervises the whole investi
294 Zeke : Okay I stand corrected, I remember the system there is not like elsewhere.
295 Breiz : Not necessarily. I had Habsheim in mind, but may be are you referring to St Odile. My "not again" was directed to the suspicion about an investigatio
296 Revelation : Thanks for the informative posts. I'm not an aviation professional, so I don't really understand the correlation between EGT and highly deteriorated
297 Lumberton : So who is doing the accident investigation on this one?
298 Post contains links Revelation : It would seem from http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2007/070505.htm that it is the Government of Cameroon. Also, from http://www.kbc.co.ke/story.asp?ID=4
299 Tdscanuck : The most critical design point in a jet engine is the temperature in the turbine (basically, EGT). For efficiency, you want this to be as high as it
300 Zeke : In many countries it in enshrined in law that information presented to accident investigators cannot be used in civil or criminal proceedings, but ca
301 HB-IWC : This thread has reached 300 replies and thereby the critical length of any a.net discussion thread. If you would like to continue this issue further,
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