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Is UA Headed Back For Bankruptcy?  
User currently offlineAAden From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 835 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 10456 times:

I was just wondering if UA was in trouble again. I haven't heard anything about them, so I thought I'd ask

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 10408 times:

They are laying off Maintenance again. A friend who posts here has grown tired of the UA games and is jumping ship.


Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10233 times:



Quoting AAden (Thread starter):
I was just wondering if UA was in trouble again.

No....

Quoting AAden (Thread starter):
I haven't heard anything about them, so I thought I'd ask

Sometimes no news is good news.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10210 times:

Cheap gas = better chance for profit / no bankruptcy

Unless you hedge at over $100 / bbl

...oh, wait - nevermind  Wink



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9705 times:

They have a strong cash position, they are doing just fine. They aren't the best off nor the worst off, there is no tangible evidence from any credible source that they are having financial problems, that their situation is atypical, and that they are headed for bankruptcy or ruin.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12902 posts, RR: 100
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9501 times:
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Quoting Sunking737 (Reply 1):
They are laying off Maintenance again

Bummer. The new guys are usually the most enthusiastic (hard workers).  Sad

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
They aren't the best off nor the worst off,

 checkmark  But they are rebuilding their reputation.

Note: If this economy keeps going down, I expect quite a few other airlines to falter first. However, I'm not sure with UA's potential downside cash burn I'd call their cash position strong...


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBoeingdotcom From Singapore, joined Nov 2008, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9484 times:

CNN just says that Saudi Arabia wants oil to be $75 a barrel.

So OPEC may increase after all...



Never forget to be yourself.
User currently offlinePlatinumfoota From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8933 times:
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Quoting Sunking737 (Reply 1):
They are laying off Maintenance again

They have already layed off Ramp, CS and are about to layoff 300+ pilots as well. I was let go from ramp back in September, right before 9/11 of this year.



Never forget United 93
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7967 times:



Quoting Boeingdotcom (Reply 6):
Saudi Arabia wants oil to be $75 a barrel.

This is in part do to Iran and Venezuala who depend on oil to support and pay for their social program. If I recall correctly, Chavez needs oil at about 100 USD per barrel to pay for his programs. I remember reading this in the NY Times, but it was several weeks ago, back when oil began to fall rapidly. I suspect the Saudi's want to find a middle ground. High enough to support arab friends, low enough not to cause wider economic instability.

As for UA, I think if they can emerge from the toxic labor and financial situations (theirs and world wide in general), I think they will be a strong merger partner. I only hope it is with CO and CO runs the show post merger. They would make UA a higher class airline, iMHO.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8217 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7345 times:



Quoting AAden (Thread starter):
I was just wondering if UA was in trouble again. I haven't heard anything about them, so I thought I'd ask

Doubt it but then again... 'tis the season to ask the government for bailout money so like the auto industry, it never hurts to ask  Smile

Quoting Boeingdotcom (Reply 6):
CNN just says that Saudi Arabia wants oil to be $75 a barrel.

They got a taste for what $150/bl can give you. You can't buy a private A380 on $40/bl  Smile


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7094 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):

checkmark But they are rebuilding their reputation.

And doing a lousy job. Their J-class retrofits are going way too slowly, too many planes remain in old colors, their international Y-product is a joke that's not funny, their employees still seem unhappy and unmotivated, and their fleet is rapidly becoming material for a museum in Dayton, OH.

I only fly with them when I have no reasonable alternative. And I live in SF.


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6498 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
They aren't the best off nor the worst off,

checkmark But they are rebuilding their reputation.

Note: If this economy keeps going down, I expect quite a few other airlines to falter first. However, I'm not sure with UA's potential downside cash burn I'd call their cash position strong...

Compared to other North American airlines - their potential cash burn in unspectacular. They are taking a conservative position - cutting vulnerable routes and focusing on leveraging their niche in the market. After US goes down in flames we can start talking about if UA is next to go, but they certainly will not be the first. Heck, if the merger of NW/DL goes as catastrophically poor as HP/US went, they might face viability issues. In this market, no one is safe, but UA is not worst off.

Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 7):

Quoting Sunking737 (Reply 1):
They are laying off Maintenance again

They have already layed off Ramp, CS and are about to layoff 300+ pilots as well. I was let go from ramp back in September, right before 9/11 of this year.

They are in the midst of a very substantial cut in domestic capacity, if you cut 20% of your domestic capacity, you naturally will not need as many employees - that's all part of the cost savings.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):

checkmark But they are rebuilding their reputation.

And doing a lousy job. Their J-class retrofits are going way too slowly, too many planes remain in old colors, their international Y-product is a joke that's not funny, their employees still seem unhappy and unmotivated, and their fleet is rapidly becoming material for a museum in Dayton, OH.

Their J rollout is going slowly, but the new J product is the best of any North American airline and gives their european and asian counterparts some competition for the first time in a long while. The repainting is not that slow. DL has 3 liveries flying right now. They repaint as aircraft come due. Their international Y is at least as good as NW, DL, and in many cases, AA as well.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineEtops1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1069 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6347 times:

"After US goes down in flames we can start talking about if UA is next to go"

i was waiting for the US attack. I guess your going to have to be waiting a long long time to start talking about if UA is the next to go then.


User currently offlineTN757Flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6157 times:



Quoting C680 (Reply 3):
Cheap gas = better chance for profit / no bankruptcy

Doesn't matter. Bad economy in general = fewer fliers = less profits for all airlines. Everyone is predicting a gloomy 2009. Don't be surprised to see UA and/or anyone else in Ch11 next year. Oil prices may be down, but when people aren't buying tickets, it still doesn't matter what it costs if you can't put butts in the seats.


User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6070 times:



Quoting TN757Flyer (Reply 13):
Everyone is predicting a gloomy 2009.

However, despite all the gloom and doom going on around the US economy, the analysts are projecting that all of the legacies will be profitable for FY09. UA on average is projected to turn a 335M profit next year.

I don’t think any of the legacies are at much of a risk for Chapter 11 in 09….



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12902 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6012 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I only fly with them when I have no reasonable alternative. And I live in SF.

I've flown UA more than *all* the other airlines combined over the last five years. Before then it was CO, but their west coast presence isn't worth talking about.

I still know of a few high end customers who are loyal to UA. (For the PS service, if nothing else.)

For those quick to defend UA, do take the time to look at what needs to be improved. Pratt was sidelined in its major markets due to its inability to look into its own warts. Now it has a culture of not only of looking at the warts but getting rid of them. That is what *all* modern business must do.

From this thread its pretty obvious that the international service level *must* be brought up a notch or two (or three) yesterday. I personally *love* their Denver hub!  cloudnine  But the LAX terminal?  no  It has its issues.  spit 


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5785 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
For those quick to defend UA, do take the time to look at what needs to be improved.

Most of us are aware of what UA needs to improve and what they are doing to correct those issues. The underlying point however is that UA is no worse off than any of the other legacies and actually has quite a few things going well for them right now.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offline300CAP From United States of America, joined May 2007, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5066 times:
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Boeingdotcom quote, "CNN just says that Saudi Arabia wants oil to be $75 a barrel."[/quote]

Sure Saudi Arabia can pay $75 a barrel while the rest of us pay $50-$60 a barrel.


User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4716 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 2):
Unless you hedge at over $100 / bbl

United isn't any worse off with hedges than anyone else. Even Southwest has hedging
losses. Only some 30% of UA fuel was hedged, and the savings from $55 oil far outweigh
the "losses"


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7506 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4621 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 14):
I don’t think any of the legacies are at much of a risk for Chapter 11 in 09….

I think so too. Alot of these analyst are full of crap anyway. The same ones that said wed be facing $200 a pop.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4272 times:



Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 18):
Quoting United1 (Reply 2):
Unless you hedge at over $100 / bbl

United isn't any worse off with hedges than anyone else. Even Southwest has hedging
losses. Only some 30% of UA fuel was hedged, and the savings from $55 oil far outweigh
the "losses"

I wasnt the one who said that but I completely agree with you even with the hedging losses that UA is going to take they are generating more cash which will let them absorb the losses relativly easily.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineTN757Flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4009 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 14):
However, despite all the gloom and doom going on around the US economy, the analysts are projecting that all of the legacies will be profitable for FY09.

And the airline CEO's themselves say it's going to be bad? I'll go with the CEO's on this one since no one on a.net pays much stock in what the analysts say (I don't know what analysts you are reading, all I see is gloom for 09). but if the CEO's expect '09 to be bad, it's probably going to be.


User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3868 times:

Quoting TN757Flyer (Reply 21):
And the airline CEO's themselves say it's going to be bad?

When did the CEOs of the US legacies say that 09 was going to be bad?

Quoting TN757Flyer (Reply 21):
I don't know what analysts you are reading, all I see is gloom for 09

I'm taking a look at the average numbers that the analyst are projecting for the US legacies for 09. All 5 of the legacies (weird getting used to saying 5 vs 6 but anyway...) are projected to be profitable, all of these numbers have at least been updated in the past week. While there is a downturn in the US economy please keep in mind that the industry pulled a massive amount of capacity out of the system (To put it in perspective combined it was the equivalent of shutting down NW.) couple that with the price of oil and the industry basically corrected for this downturn almost before it started. There will be some further tweaks but it should not be that bad of a year for anyone.

[Edited 2008-11-30 14:37:37]


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineTrojanclipper From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3687 times:

Well, although United Airlines is on Henry Paulson's list of troubled companies, so are most airlines!

As far as the J class rollout is concerned...I just flew to SFO-FRA on the new J class seats and they can take their time rolling them out! Similarly, the new F class seats are so similar to the J class seats, I don't know if a lot of people are going to want to pay the extra price.

Don't get me wrong, the service was actually quite good. Just the seat, when fully reclined, crunches the feet. They are also quite narrow, now 8 across on the B747 instead of 7 on the main deck. BA also has 8 across on its fully-flat J class, but the have a design that gives more leg room and better privacy screens. I'm still glad they didn't go for the diagonal flat-beds (e.g. Virgin Atlantic, Air New Zealand) because those I find to be as hard as a rock and in order for a 6 foot person to sleep comfortably, you have to rest your head over the side vent.

In the end, it's all about the seat and service and having also just flown SFO-LHR on the 777 older configuration in F class, the meal was horrible, rushed and the crew disappeared. So, what difference does it make if I like those seats better if I have to get up and head to the back of the bus if I need a glass of water.

Also, UA needs to decide where to cut their service...J class domestic was not the right place. Under the new policy, they serve Y class snack boxes to J class passengers, free of charge. However, on a recent flight from SFO-ORD, their was an aircraft change from a 2-cabin to a 3-cabin. They boarded 36 F class meals but only had 12 seats. They ended up not serving the remaining meals to J class passengers under their new policy of handing them a snack box from Y class. However, since there were so many J class passengers, they ran out of these too! They need to have actual meals in J class, not a cold snack box; otherwise this 1K will go to where there's something more special in the air.


User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3621 times:



Quoting Trojanclipper (Reply 23):
Under the new policy, they serve Y class snack boxes to J class passengers, free of charge.

Actually they dropped that policy and went back to serving regular meals on those 16 or so domestic flights that offer J class.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
25 Trojanclipper : Yay! Thank you for letting me know that. I didn't think it would last long, but wasn't sure. I am flying J class domestic again to IAD for the Inaugur
26 AirNZ : To be fair Laxdude, a lot of the armchair 'expert's here on a.net were swearing the same thing, and nope, I'm not referring to either yourself or the
27 Malaysia : Maybe UA has a higher turnover on ramp that beats cutting staff? Then why is SFO hiring ramp now?
28 DocLightning : Best of any North American airline except DL and AA and AC. All of which have better cabins, better service, and better crew. DL is hardly a good exa
29 United1 : Depends where your going and what type of plane your flying oviousely flying UA between the US and SYD you don't have a PTV in Y however you have a b
30 777STL : I think that was his point, DL has three liveries flying as it's taken them that long to repaint their aircraft. However DL has had three liveries in
31 TN757Flyer : Umm, in virtually every aviation news magazine and newsletter published, they are collectively saying '09 is not going to be a good year. One need on
32 United1 : I have yet to hear any of the US legacy CEOs preach doom and gloom for 2009 and in general what I have heard is that they feel confident that they ha
33 TN757Flyer : OK, if you say so. Guess I'll have to have a talk with ATW, Airwise, Flight Global, etc.who all say differently. Peace.
34 FA4UA : united keeps stumbling along... internally the focus (as seen in recent CEO Communiques to employees) is about aligning CO and UA up to better leverag
35 United1 : I would keep an eye on the Credit Suisse Global Airline Conference on Tuesday if you would like to know what the CEOs/airlines are saying about 2009
36 N174UA : With the big drop in oil prices, UA was able to renegotiate its agreement with JPMorgan Chase regarding receipts from credit card sales. Instead of us
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