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Delta - Odds Of Taking Over AF's LAX-PPT?  
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6115 times:

Granted the joint venture is defined as "transatlantic" - but AF's LAX-PPT is a relative oddball in and of itself, makes me wonder if DL's loyalty in the continental US might prove powerful enough to take this route over from AF and actually bring in more traffic?

[Edited 2008-11-30 11:21:25]


Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJKJ777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

There is a strong French presence in the South Pacific (i.e. French Polynesia). Air France will, more than likely, retain these flights from Paris via LAX. I cannot see Delta serving this market any better than Air France does. I am more than curious to see DL metal coming thru LAX on their way to SYD or AKL........

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6002 times:
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I dont think that it would be politically acceptable in France for AF to cease CDG-PPT in favour of a codeshare with a US carrier - AF may not be state owned any more but it is still the French flag carrier and to hand over connecting traffic between Metropolitan France and a French TOM to a foreign carrier would ruffle a lot of feathers , OTOH , TN has been rumoured as a possible Skyteam associate member and since it is a French ( overseas ) carrier it would seem more acceptable for AF to drop its LAX-PPT in favour of a codeshare on TN metal which DL may also choose to codeshare on . ( AF has previously dropped their NRT-NOU sector in favour of a codeshare on SB without anyone getting too upset about it... but if it had been a codeshare on JL metal I am sure that it would have upset a lot of French politicians )


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5968 times:

Also dont forget the logistics of these flight at LAX -- for practical purposes these flights are quasi French domestic services with the passengers in transit being sequestered during the LAX ground time.

A Delta service from T-5 would require a formal immigration entry to the US for these transiting passengers and terminal transfers.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5945 times:

Thanks much for the very intelligent replies! Sounds like it's not something that will happen and with many good reasons.


Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineSimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 904 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5911 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Thread starter):
Granted the joint venture is defined as "transatlantic" - but AF's LAX-PPT is a relative oddball in and of itself

This flight is included in the JV.


User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2153 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5901 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
A Delta service from T-5 would require a formal immigration entry to the US for these transiting passengers and terminal transfers.

So DL T5 does not have customs? Doesn't the NW terminal on the other side have customs?

If t5 is the survivor in the merge then would that mean an intl DL bird on the run would require an alternate terminal arrival...clearance...pax make their way to a new terminal...ac towed...thru security again...board and depart with all pax having to have US visa's now.

Wonder if their is enough room for DL to squeeze into 2? Doesn't appear to be at first glance but with NW onboard they need to be cuddled up together to get any synergy and to reduce repeated trips thru security for connecting customers.


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5884 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
A Delta service from T-5 would require a formal immigration entry to the US for these transiting passengers and terminal transfers.

This part is huge. Unless the US changes policy and creates sterile transfer zones, there would be absolutely no reason to move this from AF to DL metal. If there were sterile transit, however, then there could be an argument - including more efficient fleet and crew usage.

Then again, the politics on the French end might dictate this continue on French metal, as a matter of pride and policy.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5867 times:



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 6):
So DL T5 does not have customs? Doesn't the NW terminal on the other side have customs?

Yes they both have customs, but T-5 does not have transit facilities.
The point is not to clear the transit passengers -- matter of fact there are passengers in transit such as school children or even prisoner transfers which on their own would not be eligable for US entry.

When AF was briefly located in T-5, its transit PPT services had to operate from TBIT. AF/KL are now in T-2, and have no interest to move back into T-5 with DL due to the facilities and atrocious handling received from DL the last attempt.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2153 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5796 times:

Agreed that the shortsighted actions to cancel the Transit Without Visa program has done more to slow new air routes via the United States than any action I can think of in the recent past. I would suspect that Deep South America to Asia would have been transiting via LAX long ago if the TWOV program was still in effect....and the growth of non US hubs and the revenues lost is quite significant.

User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5785 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
The point is not to clear the transit passengers -- matter of fact there are passengers in transit such as school children or even prisoner transfers which on their own would not be eligable for US entry.

Are there any other exceptions when transit pax don't have to clear US inmigration and customs?

Correct me if I'm wrong but every direct flights making an intermediate stop in the US, everybody have to disembark and clear US inmigration and customs regardless if they are continuing their journey (i.e KE's GRU-LAX-ICN, LA's SCL-JFK-YYZ).

Why is AF granted an exception on this rule?

I'm sure several carriers would operate tag-on flights with stops in the US if not for the visa requirement for transit pax. One example that comes to my mind is IB stopping in MIA on their way to Central America.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
The point is not to clear the transit passengers -- matter of fact there are passengers in transit such as school children or even prisoner transfers which on their own would not be eligable for US entry.

AF could route through Canada (YVR, YYC) or Mexico (MEX) if to carry unellegibles for US entry



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5684 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 10):
Correct me if I'm wrong but every direct flights making an intermediate stop in the US, everybody have to disembark and clear US inmigration and customs regardless if they are continuing their journey

Not really - both the KE ICN-LAX-GRU and NZ AKL-LAX-LHR passengers are put in transit facilities -- however they all do require the ability to enter the US on their own but basically go thru abbreviated immigration check but do not reclaim bags or deal with customs and instead sit in a sterile facility during the ground stop at LAX.

NZ even has a little explanation about this on their website
http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/befor...ional-travel/transiting-via-la.htm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 10):
Why is AF granted an exception on this rule?

Because the US-France bilateral calls for such, and unlike the other carrier routes Paris-Tahiti is a quasi domestic service from France proper to a DOM-TOM territory.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9081 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5639 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Because the US-France bilateral calls for such, and unlike the other carrier routes Paris-Tahiti is a quasi domestic service from France proper to a DOM-TOM territory.

alot like USA-GUM and SJU right?



yep.
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5634 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Not really - both the KE ICN-LAX-GRU and NZ AKL-LAX-LHR passengers are put in transit facilities -- however they all do require the ability to enter the US on their own but basically go thru abbreviated immigration check but do not reclaim bags or deal with customs and instead sit in a sterile facility during the ground stop at LAX.

At the very end, every non-US citizen flying on these ones have to carry a US B1/B2 visa or a passport elegible for VWP.



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5636 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 12):
alot like USA-GUM and SJU right?

Different ball game as USA-GUM or USA-SJU do not have an intermediate stop in a 3rd country



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5562 times:

Also Air France has a few crews based in PPT, so unless they get rid of them too than I wouldn't expect anything.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9081 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5548 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 14):
Different ball game as USA-GUM or USA-SJU do not have an intermediate stop in a 3rd country

GUM does. USA-NRT-GUM via NW. IIRC CO does have flights via HNL
My point was SJU/GUM are to the US what PPT is to France?



yep.
User currently onlineLegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5343 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
The point is not to clear the transit passengers -- matter of fact there are passengers in transit such as school children or even prisoner transfers which on their own would not be eligable for US entry.

Confused about the "school children" part. Why would they not be eligable for entry to the U.S.?



John@SFO
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5266 times:



Quoting Legacyins (Reply 17):
Confused about the "school children" part. Why would they not be eligable for entry to the U.S.?

There are periods of heavy school children and kids coming and going from holiday camps that do not have documentation outside of simple French or Tahitian identity cards.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineLegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5230 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
There are periods of heavy school children and kids coming and going from holiday camps that do not have documentation outside of simple French or Tahitian identity cards.

Actually, all individuals, children or adults, need a valid passport, even to transit the U.S.. The setup in LA is a bit different for the transit passengers off of NZ and TN. True, they do not go through the normal passport lines and are escorted into a transit room. Once in the room, they go through the full Immigration process of finger prints, stamping of passports and I-94s. If CBP needs to see their luggage, it is pulled off the aircraft.

Pre 911, it is true , they could have an identity document to transit the U.S.. Not today



John@SFO
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5194 times:
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Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 6):
So DL T5 does not have customs?

T5 ,6, 7 have a common customs facility at LAX.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5088 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 20):
T5 ,6, 7 have a common customs facility at LAX.

No, T-5 has its own(small) FIS.

T6-7 is the sole United FIS facility.

Quoting Legacyins (Reply 19):
they could have an identity document to transit the U.S.. Not today

Actually the annual pilgrimages of lots of these kids continues only on national ID cards sans regular passports.
I assume some accommodation is made for them.

Speaking of pilgrimages, its also interesting to see the annual changing of the police force in Tahiti with a plane fulls of Gendarmerie from the mainland.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

Back to the initial question :

Quoting Breaker1011 (Thread starter):
DL's loyalty in the continental US might prove powerful enough to take this route over from AF and actually bring in more traffic?

The answer is : NO.

From a 3 x Weekly B744 on CDG-LAX-PPT-PPT-CDG, AF went to a 4 x Weekly A343 about 2 or 3 years ago.

The service will soon return to a 3 x Weekly frequency with a B772ER, mostly for aircraft dispatch reason (LAX is an ALL B777 destination and the use of an A343 only for the PPT flight was quite "problematic" and unproductive)


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4792 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4006 times:
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Interestingly enough, I believe the LAX-PPT route will actually be part of the AF-DL Joint Venture (i.e., 50-50 revenue/profit sharing) in the second phase in 2010. It's the only non-North America-Europe route that is part of the JV.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10885

".....By 2010, the agreement will be extended to all trans-Atlantic flights operated by Air France and Delta between Europe and the Mediterranean on one side and North America on the other side, as well as all flights between Los Angeles and Tahiti...."


User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3516 times:
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Quoting Panamair (Reply 23):
".....By 2010, the agreement will be extended to all trans-Atlantic flights operated by Air France and Delta between Europe and the Mediterranean on one side and North America on the other side, as well as all flights between Los Angeles and Tahiti...."

this depends on if the US ratify the second part of open skies with the EU which with a democratic D.C is very unlikely sadly!


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