Not really surprised about LH not being interested in WW. It is probably the weakest LOCO based in the uk. It could have been integrated into LH's 4U subsidiary, however I think it's aging 737 fleet and strong competition from FR, EZY and BE would prove to costly. So it is probably easier to try and sell it.
However BMI regional does surprise me. The aircraft and route structure all be it with a few changes could run alongside the current LH Cityline/Regional brand.
BE has experience of taking on other airlines regional subsidiaries. They took on BA Connect from BA and integrated it into BE. I know that they had a lot of problems in the beginning with fleet integration and crew shortages. However in the last financial year, which ended 31 MAR 08 BE made it's biggest ever profit (£35.4 million which is just over $50 million) and carried 7 million pax. They have successfully sold all the ex BA connect DH8-300's and E145 aircraft replacing them with more efficient DH4 aircraft.
If BE takeover WW and BD Regional they will probably firstly and as quickly as possible want rid of WW's aging 737's. They will deploy their 195's on the longer profitable WW routes and DH4's on shorter flights, cutting non profitable routes and on routes that mirror current BE routes they would likely integrate their schedules. Cutting over all frequency but boosting current the current BE frequencies.
When it comes to the BD Regional fleet of 4 E135's and 14 E145's BE will phase some out straight away as some of the regional routes such as EDI/MAN mirror those currently operated by BE. The remaining as with BA Connects fleet will very likely leave the fleet as new DH4's arrive to replace them.
They will more than likely exercise their 12 E195 and 15 DH4 options and very likely order more on top of that.
Only time will tell. If BE decide just to take on BD Regional then WW maybe taken up by EZY or FR. However I think it will more likely be closed down and the slots sold to either BE, FR or EZY.
BA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8278 posts, RR: 56 Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6242 times:
No shocker LH are not interested in WW, it will take quite a lot of investment to replace the current fleet & I don't think it is worth it, to be honest, sell it to EZY and have it merge into their operations.
The BMI Regional product could remain, as you say, along the lines of LH Regional, will be a shame if it does go though, I think it does a pretty decent job.
Re BE, they do a pretty decent job, not cheap to fly though, or at least that's my experience.
BALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6171 times:
Quoting Oa260 (Reply 2):
Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 1):
not cheap to fly though, or at least that's my experience.
Very true. For a LCC they have very high fares. I often pay over GBP150.00 for flights to SOU.
Yes and fares will only rise when they don't have any competition at all on their regional domestic routes.
Fares on flights to EDI/MAN and GLA to SOU rocketed when their only competition, BACX which later became BACON stopped operating the flights in competition.
BA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8278 posts, RR: 56 Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6140 times:
Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 3): Yes and fares will only rise when they don't have any competition at all on their regional domestic routes.
Fares on flights to EDI/MAN and GLA to SOU rocketed when their only competition, BACX which later became BACON stopped operating the flights in competition.
- I wonder if BE will be harder hit than other carriers on domestic flights? BE rely have lots of point to point routes which business passengers frequent as they are convenient - if expensive. With many many companies pulling the plug on travel or going bust, have they lost or loosing their main passenger base?
Unlike BA (as an example) who give away stacks of potential empty seats at cheap mileage redemption to keep their regulars happy and help them burn the milage, what can BE do other than drop fares to hopefully stimulate demand?
BALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6068 times:
Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 4): - I wonder if BE will be harder hit than other carriers on domestic flights? BE rely have lots of point to point routes which business passengers frequent as they are convenient - if expensive. With many many companies pulling the plug on travel or going bust, have they lost or loosing their main passenger base?
Unlike BA (as an example) who give away stacks of potential empty seats at cheap mileage redemption to keep their regulars happy and help them burn the milage, what can BE do other than drop fares to hopefully stimulate demand?
On certain routes maybe. However look at EDI/MAN. BE currently operate 5 flights and BD operate 6 flights each weekday a total of 11 daily flights cut that by 5 and then yes BE will be able to push up the fares. Domestically they will get away with this to the point as the rail system isn't all that reliable.
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3131 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5974 times:
Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 1): The BMI Regional product could remain, as you say, along the lines of LH Regional, will be a shame if it does go though, I think it does a pretty decent job.
I'm not too surprised. Although it is a regional carrier just like LH Cityline, the UK domestic market is still a completely new market to LH, and a highly competitive market as well.
The synergies between bmi regional and FlyBE are higher than those between bmi regional and LH and therefore, FlyBE might offer an amount of money that's interesting for LH.
Besides that, although it is financially very stable, LH does not have a money tree (AFAIK). In a short time, they have buying SN, BD and almost OS, and they invested in MXP.
Now they have a business unit that (1) does not completely fit in their business model and (2) that has a potential buyer that is not a real competitor, I think it's completely normal that they want to sell it - and likely make a good profit out of it.
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5731 times:
As BE fly BHD-LGW I'm curious if they would then intend also in keeping the BD BHD-LHR route.
I certainly hope so, and even the possibility of dropping their own BHD-LGW if they would see them as mutually competing.......based on the premise that Easyjet already serve LGW from BFS. I know EI also serve LHR from BFS, but I honestly can't see BE giving up the BHD-LHR rights either. Any thoughts are certainly welcome.
BALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5532 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 8): As BE fly BHD-LGW I'm curious if they would then intend also in keeping the BD BHD-LHR route.
I certainly hope so, and even the possibility of dropping their own BHD-LGW if they would see them as mutually competing.......based on the premise that Easyjet already serve LGW from BFS. I know EI also serve LHR from BFS, but I honestly can't see BE giving up the BHD-LHR rights either. Any thoughts are certainly welcome.
BE would not pay the landing fees or the amount LH will want for slots at LHR
Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 9): - I think that's operated by mainline, that route or slot is not likely to be dropped by LH, unless they break up the whole thing and sell the slots.
I agree it will all come down to slots and profitability of the existing routes.
The sale of BD Regional would probably have an impact on certain routes from LHR. ABZ, MME, LBA, JER and HAJ to LHR are either fully operated using or mostly operated using a BD Regional ER4. Also it could see cut backs in Saturday afternoon/evening flights and Sunday morning/early afternoon flights from LHR to AMS/BRU/EDI/GLA and MAN as those flights are currently operated by a Regional ER4.
Other routes from UK airport than would be affected if Regional are sold are
ABZ to MAN, NWI, GRQ and ESJ.
EDI to BRU, CPH, LBA, MAN and ZRH.
GLA to CPH, LBA and MAN.
EMA to BRU and CGN
LBA to BRU and CPH
MAN to LYS
BE already currently operate on the EDI and GLA to MAN in competition with BD Regional
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5258 times:
With regards to baby, would BE really want the highly competitive Spanish routes from MAN/BHX/EMA - CWL is a different matter (far less competition so could be developed like EXT/SOU) but I suspect Flybe would be more interested in the domestics/Irish/AMS/CDG flights
Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 10): The sale of BD Regional would probably have an impact on certain routes from LHR. ABZ, MME, LBA, JER and HAJ to LHR are either fully operated using or mostly operated using a BD Regional ER4.
I cant see LH using peaktime LHR slots for ERJ's - if they can sustain an Airbus I suspect routes will be axed
Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 10): Other routes from UK airport than would be affected if Regional are sold are
ABZ to MAN, NWI, GRQ and ESJ.
EDI to BRU, CPH, LBA, MAN and ZRH.
GLA to CPH, LBA and MAN.
EMA to BRU and CGN
LBA to BRU and CPH
MAN to LYS
A few points here:
BE only currently serve MAN-EDI/GLA out of those. The overlap is surprisingly far more between baby and BE
Some of those routes probably wouldn't work for BE - For example GRQ and ESJ. They would be rather good for Eastern though ...
Some of the regional routes do contribute to the Star network - the CPH/BRU/ZRH services. Also the fact regional operates under the bmi brand and regional does contribute to the overall product and network coverage of bmi, unlike baby which is far more separate. The question for LH is, is this contribution more than what BE would pay? I cant see how regional is 'core' but neither is it 'non-core'
BMED From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 856 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5212 times:
Would it bw worth for BE to codeshare perhaps with LH on some routes? It seems a shame as the regional product is good and from my experience very reliable. I would have rather hoped that LH keep regional with BD.
Myt332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 74 Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5028 times:
Quoting Humberside (Reply 11): BE only currently serve MAN-EDI/GLA out of those. The overlap is surprisingly far more between baby and BE
BE are actually starting (re-starting) MAN-ABZ in March 2009 with the DH4.
It really would be a shame for BD Regional to be bought by BE though. For people who value how they travel they are the last stand for the damn regions and their over price sensitive passengers.
I've flown BE and WW in the past month and the service is depressing.
Flybehubby From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4866 times:
Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 5): BE will be able to push up the fares. Domestically they will get away with this to the point as the rail system isn't all that reliable.
Agreed!
Quoting Myt332 (Reply 13): I've flown BE and WW in the past month and the service is depressing.
I find that suprising, the service on BE is known to be very professional for a loco even slightly BA in its approach. Its a stark contrast to the service offered, for example, by FR. Constantly selling, gimicks etc.
Nighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 4993 posts, RR: 38 Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4820 times:
Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 10): BE already currently operate on the EDI and GLA to MAN in competition with BD Regional
BE will be adding ABZ-MAN in the summer.
I wonder if BE would be allowed to buy out BD, if they do the only carriers operating regionally will be BE and Eastern. I wonder if competion commissions would have something to say about this?
MYT332 - how many flights have you taken on BE this year? I notice from the list on your profile its just a couple of round trips.
Quoting Myt332 (Reply 15): Quoting Flybehubby (Reply 14):
Its a stark contrast to the service offered, for example, by FR. Constantly selling, gimicks etc.
Flybe tried to sell me luggage allowances, seats, food, drink, lounge access. Bah.
Apart from the "local" airlines, name me an airline that doesnt sell food drink. The "constant" selling i was refering to ie scratchards, bullseye baggies, bus passes, train passes, car hire etc etc etc.
Please dont get me wrong here, I love Ryanair. Its just has a very different style when compared with flybe (and just about every other airline.)
Myt332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 74 Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4629 times:
Quoting Flybehubby (Reply 17): MYT332 - how many flights have you taken on BE this year? I notice from the list on your profile its just a couple of round trips.
I know, I had no choice sadly. I took even more last year.
See I don't. I really ,really don't. However Flybe are much better than them in my opinion but it's just not my cup of tea flying them still. It is however, many other peoples and fair enough.
Flybehubby From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4525 times:
Quoting Myt332 (Reply 18): See I don't. I really ,really don't. However Flybe are much better than them in my opinion but it's just not my cup of tea flying them still. It is however, many other peoples and fair enough.
Given the choice I wouldnt fly them but £1 fares (which ive had a good few) vs £50+ or £100s on other airlines, its a no brainer for me.
I wonder how many Q400s / E195s flybe would order to replace the BMI Regional and Baby fleets. Whats the backorder list like on them two a/c at the moment. I know flybe have 15/16 options not yet taken up on the Q400 but not sure about the E195.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6680 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4439 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 8): As BE fly BHD-LGW I'm curious if they would then intend also in keeping the BD BHD-LHR route.
I certainly hope so, and even the possibility of dropping their own BHD-LGW if they would see them as mutually competing.......based on the premise that Easyjet already serve LGW from BFS. I know EI also serve LHR from BFS, but I honestly can't see BE giving up the BHD-LHR rights either. Any thoughts are certainly welcome.
I guess it depends on LH's plans not just for BD's operations but for their LHR slots. While LH may be prepared to sell bmi Regional they may not be willing to include the LHR slots (which actually already belong to BD mainline) in the sale.
So there are several questions:
If LH sell bmi Regional to BE will they include all the LHR slots currently used by bmi Regional aircraft in the deal or will they retain them to expand LH's international services out of LHR?
If LH are willing to sell the LHR slots currently used by bmi Regional aircraft are they likely to be of interest to BE recognising that on routes operated by both bmi and bmi Regional out of LHR the prime time flights are operated by bmi and not bmi Regional aircraft?
If LH are willing to include all the LHR slots currently operated by bmi Regional in any sale of bmi Regional, would BE as a loco be prepared to operate into LHR (as well as or instead of LGW) with the associated higher costs or would they prefer to sell the LHR slots (if the deal with LH allowed such a sale)?
BrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3812 posts, RR: 9 Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4438 times:
Quoting Myt332 (Reply 13): I've flown BE and WW in the past month and the service is depressing.
I for one would hate to see WW and bmiRegional go, but if they were to refleet baby with E195's that would be a very big plus point. The 733s are quite grungy and constantly going tech, making the current operations quite unreliable.
flyBe, esyJet, Ryanair, et al are the way travel from the regions has gone. On short hops aroun the British Isles and nearby European destinations do you really need a hot meal and an airbridge? WW, BE, Fr, U2 all offer incredibly cheap fares for travel, while I like a good service as much as the next person, all I really want is to get where I want to be, when I booked to be there and if flyBe could offer me this on routes I travel I would be there like a shot.
Oh, and after 10 return trips you are entitles to 12 months complementary UK lounge access. Sounds like a good deal to me!
Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
Bwaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 676 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4350 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 20): I guess it depends on LH's plans not just for BD's operations but for their LHR slots. While LH may be prepared to sell bmi Regional they may not be willing to include the LHR slots (which actually already belong to BD mainline) in the sale.
All Embraer operations out of LHR are 'mainline' - the aircraft are damp leased (aircraft and flight crew) by Regional to mainline and LHR based mainline cabin crew operate on the aircraft. The aircraft operate mainline routes using mainline slots. Effectively there is no 'regional' operation at LHR, just mainline operations using leased Embraer aircraft, so no LHR slots to sell. (all a bit complicated - hope it makes sense!)
Myt332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 74 Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4328 times:
Quoting Flybehubby (Reply 19): Given the choice I wouldnt fly them but £1 fares (which ive had a good few) vs £50+ or £100s on other airlines, its a no brainer for me.
I've flown FR a few times going back to their B732 days. I only fly them for a day trip to Ireland with friends and I like to think I've taken more from FR then FR have taken from me. Last time I flew them it was £0.02 return inc taxes. I have however been burned by FR and dumped in Ireland for 2 days.
Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 21): On short hops aroun the British Isles and nearby European destinations do you really need a hot meal and an airbridge?
Airbridge yes. Running through driving rain is not my idea of a relaxed trip. I'm not fussed about a hot meal really. I usually get given a sandwich on BA anyway which is fine. It's all the other bits I dislike about the LCC's which get to me.
Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 21): Oh, and after 10 return trips you are entitles to 12 months complementary UK lounge access. Sounds like a good deal to me!
Yes UK lounge access. If you're abroad you can get lost unless you are a Flybe Economy Plus passenger.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6680 posts, RR: 17 Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4289 times:
Quoting Bwaflyer (Reply 22): All Embraer operations out of LHR are 'mainline' - the aircraft are damp leased (aircraft and flight crew) by Regional to mainline and LHR based mainline cabin crew operate on the aircraft. The aircraft operate mainline routes using mainline slots. Effectively there is no 'regional' operation at LHR, just mainline operations using leased Embraer aircraft, so no LHR slots to sell. (all a bit complicated - hope it makes sense!)
And, of course, this makes the sale of bmi Regional somewhat problematic.
Many of BD's (mainline) services into LHR use bmi Regional aircraft. So if BE buys bmi Regional, BE will be left with a fleet of EMB145s but no routes on which to fly a significant proportion of those aircraft. However if they have no better use of the LHR slots, LH could just be willing to wet lease those aircraft to operate the same routes.
So it would all become even more complicated!
By the way with the move of LG from LHR to LCY the only two remaining regional jet operators at LHR are BD and LH although KL still has a couple of F50 flights.
25 VictorKilo: It's not a major problem - the deal could be scoped such that LH retains the E135's and some of the E145's, and BE may not acquire some of the smalle
26 BALHRWWCC: I think LH will use the ex BMED configured A320/321's ( their are currently 8 plus 4 on order that were previously ordered by BMED) and the A330's ( o
27 BALHRWWCC: The cost of maintaining just a few E145's would make the aircraft not cost effective as the rest of the fleet are all Airbus.
28 Humberside: Is this just a slot application or something more definate? There was talk about ABZ-MAN (and also ABZ-NWI/CWL/Scandinavia) in the ABZ press recently
29 Planesailing: Libyan fly CRJ's into LHR also. Wasn't there a demand from Heathrow in the past for airlines to stop flying regional aircraft into the airport?
31 FlyCaledonian: LH may have brought BD, but don't expect BD in two years time to be operating the same routes ex-LHR. I fully expect LH to reorganise the LHR operatio
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I agree it will all come down to slots and profitability of the existing routes.
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