Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 2467 posts, RR: 5 Posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 31311 times:
Funny story IMHO. EK wants a solution from Airbus because their pilots can't sleep. The a380 is so quiet that the engine noise doesn't drown out other sounds like babies crying etc. Welcome to our world!!
According to EK, "Airbus overdelivered" on it's noise specs.
Indeed. I can imagine the problem as well. Engine noise is quite monotonous which makes it easier to sleep with, like the sound of rain. But I usually don't sleep in Y anyway. And if I do, it's while watching a movie or listening to my ipod.
Pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 1100 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 30916 times:
White noise is very irritating if you concentrate on it. However, if you ignore it, it is very effective at stopping noise. A pond in your backyard with the sound of water on rocks or a small fountain very effectively masks some sounds of traffic. I worked in a open concept office building where late at night we would shut the white noise off if we were working late. The silence was a relief. However, during the day that noise was necessary or the office was a cocophy of sounds.
I don't mind at all the sound of the engines on the modern aircraft. It was rather noisey behind the wing on older generation aircraft. Not having flown on the A380 I can't comment on that but I would definitely rather have enough white noise to cover the background noise of that many people in such a small space. But pleeeease Airbus no elevator music :P.
SparkingWave From Korea, joined Jun 2005, 636 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 30246 times:
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11): Shouldn't be Airbus' problem, IMO. If some background noise means that much to the crew, they can go buy a white noise machine for $20 on their own.
I disagree. If pilots can't sleep, then they won't be at their best. They won't be alert if there's an emergency that demands their attention. Airbus did a beautiful job but apparently it's still a learning curve when it comes to quieting an airliner. All this problem needs is some innovation and additional engineering to fix. Shouldn't be too hard to pull off in Toulouse.
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Ken777 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 2313 posts, RR: 10 Reply 14, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 29584 times:
Noise canceling earplugs should work for the pilots.
Might be a good idea for pax also. It seems that a super quiet plane that allows all conversations to distract you is a minimized example of what we would encounter if cell phones were in use by half of the pax on board.
Noise canceling headphones and an iPod worked well for me on long flights. If I ever get to fly on a 380 I'll be sure to have them with me.
Astuteman From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2005, 5660 posts, RR: 82 Reply 15, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 29472 times:
FlyDreamliner From Korea, joined Jan 2006, 2614 posts, RR: 17 Reply 16, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 29480 times:
Quoting TDubJFK (Reply 8): This is one complaint Boeing won't be getting from 777 pilots! stirthepot devil
Oh, 777 is not THAT loud. Anyhow, depends on the engines. I find the PWs muffled roar to be soothing, whereas I find the more mechanical sound of the RRs to be grating and the howl of the GEs to be whiney. I would group 777 along with A330 and 767 in the good amount of noise category, for me, at least. They are loud enough I can't hear anything more than a row or two away, but no so loud as to be grating. I find A340 to be delightfully quiet on a night flight where most everyone is asleep, but on a long daytime flight, I could appreciate a bit more muffling of children, loud people, and whatever else.
Having not been on A380, I imagine it being like an A340, though perhaps a bit quieter yet.
In C and J, where there are rarely children and abnoxious SOBs who have drank too much are the largest noise, a quiet aircraft is peaceful. In Y, typically the sound of jet engines is preferable to other alternatives.
All things to consider. For pilots used to sleeping with jet engine noise, I'm sure it's odd to go without it.
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11): Shouldn't be Airbus' problem, IMO. If some background noise means that much to the crew, they can go buy a white noise machine for $20 on their own.
That would defeat the purpose of having a nice, comfortable crew rest. What is cheaper, buying a $20 noise generator for your crew rest, as an airline, or settling a law suit due to an accident caused by un-rested pilots - when you knew there was an issue and could easily remedy it?
Maybe they need better noise insulation in the crew rest from the rest of the cabin?
I guess this answers the question - can an airplane be too quiet?
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 29319 times:
Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 12): I disagree. If pilots can't sleep, then they won't be at their best. They won't be alert if there's an emergency that demands their attention
And if the pilots find their blankets too itchy and their pillows to firm?
What is considered the optimal noise level for sleeping varies from person to person. It should not be up to Airbus to engineer a solution because one group has a preference for more noise. What will happen if AF gets their A380s and their pilots find it too noisy? Custom engineering is one of the problems that got the A380 delayed in the first place.
This a ridiculous matter for Airbus to deal with when cheap commercial products exist for this exact purpose.
Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 12): Airbus did a beautiful job but apparently it's still a learning curve when it comes to quieting an airliner. All this problem needs is some innovation and additional engineering to fix. Shouldn't be too hard to pull off in Toulouse.
Bull.. vibration analysis is very complicated work. The equivalent hourly wage for a single aerospace engineer to spend a single hour on this matter would probably buy commercial white noise machines for all three A380s that EK has flying.
What most non-engineers don't realize is that engineering is always, always about cost-benefit ratios. The cost-benefit ratio here is negative infinity.
StarGuy From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 28921 times:
I think it was a huge mistake to put the crew rest area at the back of the main deck cabin. The Lower Deck Mobile Crew Rest area on the A340 is my favourite crew rest area of all time. and I imagine that it'll be the same on the A380. It's away from the passenger area and has padded walls to further insulate any sound, very comfortable and cosy.
As far as earplugs and noise cancelling headphones are concerned, although some individuals might use them, they are not usually allowed as they would cancel out the noise of chimes associated with the various evacuation, low air flow (lower deck module only) and decompression warnings in the crew rest area.
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 2467 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 28591 times:
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16): Maybe they need better noise insulation in the crew rest from the rest of the cabin?
Too heavy. EK wants a solution that doesn't add weight.
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18): This a ridiculous matter for Airbus to deal with when cheap commercial products exist for this exact purpose.
Well, their biggest a380 customer wants a solution, so Airbus basically has to offer something. I agree that a simple white noise generator seems the likeliest solution.
Quoting StarGuy (Reply 20): As far as earplugs and noise cancelling headphones are concerned, although some individuals might use them, they are not usually allowed as they would cancel out the noise of chimes associated with the various evacuation, low air flow (lower deck module only) and decompression warnings in the crew rest area.
Simple to have a 'white noise' generator halt making noise when there is an alarm.
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 27452 times:
It is nice to hear that Airbus over delivered also on this part of the A380. But I never thought that the quietness could ever be a problem, but combined with the aft crew rest area, there is. I wonder how they can solve "the problem". Maybe they will exchange the current walls for even better isolated ones which do not add weight to the aircraft?
Mir From Spain, joined Jan 2004, 12107 posts, RR: 62 Reply 25, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 27661 times:
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11): Shouldn't be Airbus' problem, IMO. If some background noise means that much to the crew, they can go buy a white noise machine for $20 on their own.
As the article says, EK is the only carrier that has put their crew rest in the aft cabin. They can do that if they feel so inclined, of course, but when deviates from the manufacturers original designs, you may get a sub-optimal outcome. Methinks Airbus put the crew rest up front for a reason.
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18): What is considered the optimal noise level for sleeping varies from person to person. It should not be up to Airbus to engineer a solution because one group has a preference for more noise. What will happen if AF gets their A380s and their pilots find it too noisy? Custom engineering is one of the problems that got the A380 delayed in the first place.
Exactly. Airbus did the right thing in making the 380 as quiet as they could. It's pretty easy to correct if you have a cabin that's too quiet - just add some white noise generators. But correcting a cabin that's too noisy is going to be tough.
-Mir
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26 123: I'll record a takeoff of a 727 without hushkits and they can boom that noise into their ears, if they need noise!
27 Jacobin777: ….in one way, its a testament to Airbus building such a plane which makes it “too quiet”-great engineering…. That being said, I guess one can
28 LVZXV: Real aircraft make noise. Noise gives them presence. A lack of noise in an aircraft worries me. The noisier, the better! Best regards, ZXV
29 Molykote: Is this in reference to the inlet cowl inner barrel acoustic treatment? The photo you've provided appears to show an inner liner without splice seams
30 FlyDreamliner: That'll wake you up from a mile away. Like has been discussed, EK can equip the crew rest with a $20 machine that plays a constant drone or the sound
31 DfwRevolution: The below-deck rest module on the A340 takes up volume that could be used for cargo containers. Not a huge deal on the A340, but the A380 already has
32 StarGuy: You are kidding right? "The noisier, the better!", no way, I think that when you dont have a child screaming to have to drown out, give me the soothi
33 Prebennorholm: It can't be that much of a problem. After all Boeing solved that problem fifty years ago, and as far as I know they didn't take out a patent on airpla
34 Keesje: I think we are facing a very Serious Problem here. Drastic Action is Required to save the day. Leadership Vision and Heroism is what Airbus needs to o
35 Kire: Maybe they should squeeze dear Randy into a 744 economy class seat - near to some crying babies (why do they sit always next to me??? Not to bash B, h
36 Alessandro: On a more serious note, I read that Airbus had to give away 2% on the fuel efficency to allow the A380 to operate at LHR at all times of day, if a A38
37 GST: From the airframer sound people I've spoken to, 80dB seems to be the optimum cabin noise on a passenger jet. It allows you to keep a normal conversati
38 DocLightning: The $0.10 solution is a pair of 33dB ear plugs. That's what I use to sleep on a plane.
39 YULWinterSkies: Easy: put a microphone at the exit of the engine, wire it to a speaker in the crew rest area. These devices are small these days, should not add much
40 Prebennorholm: If I remember well, then the "2% fuel efficiency give away" was mostly due to added weight of acoustic treatment of the nacelles. But also because th
41 Crimsonnl: Funny story. I can totally imagine how fustrating this is. Just today I sat in an train at a station when the power went out, so did the air circ syst
42 SOBHI51: It is always very difficult to find seats in F on EK.
43 CX flyboy: I know A340 pilots who complain of the same thing. Their take is not that the engines are quiet (Although they are) but the fact that the partitions a
44 SashA: Doesn't A380 use anything similar to NVS on the Q series from Bombardier and Saab 2000 for noise supression? With microphones, counter affecting sound
45 PITIngres: If you haven't slept with background noise, it's hard to appreciate their complaint. As someone who has had a pink-noise machine in their bedroom for
46 Sovietjet: Get a recording of a turbojet JT3C 707 on takeoff to loop continously in the rest area...that should be enough
47 Zeke: No its the cockpit door lock, we have the loud cockpit doors on the A340s where you have bunk just next to it, and the quiet ones on the A330 where y
48 SparkingWave: Sorry but I'm still siding with the pilots on this one. Sarcasm just doesn't cut it in this issue. Adequate sleep is serious and I have history on my
49 AirIndia: Imagine what wud have happened if VS got their 380s with the 'personal double bed suites' with a honeymooning couple in it....
50 WN700Driver: Funny how stuff like this is always no big deal, or a case of people being too sensitive or whatever. Right up until a controlled flight into terrain
51 Francoflier: The cockpit crew rest area in the 744 upper deck has to be the noisiest around. It's not the engines as much as the aerodynamic roar from the upper d
52 NorthstarBoy: Why doesn't EK just do what other airlines do, block off one or two first class seats for pilot rest?
53 ManchesterMAN: Have you seen how uch they sell for DXB-JFK? I don't think EK will be giving away that revenue in a hurry. It is actually only the airlines too cheap
54 777STL: I flew the QF 380 a few weeks ago LAX-SYD, and I certainly had the same problem. The gentlemen sitting four seats away from me in my row was extremely
55 DocLightning: Again, did you get some good earplugs? I travel with some 33 dB ones and they are fantastic.
56 CX flyboy: Can't say I have ever heard any noise from the galley on the 77W...besides it would be the first class galley, and with the longhaul first class serv
57 Cpd: Stick Mr Randy in a United Airlines B744, a full one, stick him one row behind the economy class exit row (near the engines). Put some screaming kids
58 777STL: No, but I've never had a problem because I've always had enough engine noise to drown out whatever ambient noise is present. Not with the 380....
59 Burkhard: Maybe install a flight Simulator to have some engine sound ?
60 Glareskin: I do not understand how you can group the A330 with the 767 and 777. The A330 is quite a bit less noisy! And I don't think this is my opinion only...
61 OHLHD: Good that those pilots have no other problems in their life. But why blame Airbus. EK was for sure OK with the design . They can only blame themselves
62 BBADXB: LOL! Funniest post I've read around here in ages! Many thanks for this post! =D
63 Mir: If SQ and QF have no problem with their crew rests, then perhaps EK should either move theirs or work with Airbus to find a solution, with EK footing
64 Ikramerica: Nice to be validated. And called me an Airbus hater when I brought it up before Randy did… From early passenger test flights it was clear to me tha
65 FlyDreamliner: There are a lot of variables involved. I believe the statistic I have seen is that A330 is ~5db quieter averaged out than 777. It again depends where
66 Ikramerica: The A340NG series is not as quiet as the A340-200/300. And the 777 is by no means loud, though sitting in the back is noticeably louder than the midd
67 Glareskin: OK, for the most part I agree with you although being in the back of the 777 I think it is too noisy. If the 5 dB you mention is correct that is quit
68 Astuteman: Who did? You tell me who did that and I'll sort them out!!! I can only say that the time that I've spent in an A380, I haven't found the quietness to
69 Ikramerica: Yes, the 777 noise level is quite pleasant in the "money seats" and bothersome in the "backpacker seats" so frankly, few airlines really give a darn
70 AirNZ: Ate these terms "money seats" and "backpacker seats" your own, or the airlines designations? I must admit to never having heard them being disignated
71 NoWorries: Why can't they just skimp a bit on the sound insulating material -- make the plane a bit lighter and a bit noisier.
72 R2rho: Well the main deck CRC was an EK idea, it's not a standard option offered by Airbus, so it's their problem. But this raises an interesting issue, sinc
73 Ikramerica: Everything posted on these forums by anyone is OPINION unless directly quoted and sourced or base level common knowledge. If you don't like my opinio
74 Musapapaya: But currently we are seeing the oil price coming down - it might soon arrive to a point where the fuel consumption disadvantage on the airbus could b
75 JMULAH: This is really silly, if they are tired they will sleep, just give them a few minutes, if not give them an mp3 player so they can sleep with their fav
76 Virgin747LGW: isnt it ironic people are needing earplugs because aircraft are now too quiet, i bet Bose are breathing a sigh of relief!
77 777STL: I don't know, but another interesting thing I observed about the 380 is the thickness of the walls. On the lower deck at least, it seems the the thic
78 Astuteman: SQ's are just the same. It's a feature of the aircraft.. Rgds
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