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Are There Any Airlines That Are Doing OK?  
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1563 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6376 times:

Obviously, in the current economic crisis, most airlines aren't doing that great. But are there any airlines that continue to maintain profits, even if these profits are very small?


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1986 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6373 times:

I am sure LH is doing well. Other airlines that might be doing well would be BA or SQ. I know CX lost money this summer, but they still must have a large stock of equity.


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6368 times:

Southwest is doing "ok" im not sure how well they're doing as of the past month or so thou. So I could be wrong.


Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2565 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6353 times:

Hawaiian Airlines made a small profit in the 3rd quarter, for the YTD too, and is on track for a profitable 4th Q, especially given the sharp drop in fuel prices.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7366 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6344 times:



Quoting CXA330300 (Thread starter):
Obviously, in the current economic crisis, most airlines aren't doing that great. But are there any airlines that continue to maintain profits, even if these profits are very small?

Allegiant is the most profitable airline in the U.S.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9156 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6262 times:



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 1):
I know CX lost money this summer, but they still must have a large stock of equity.

CX in my view is still profitable, you need to have a close look at the interim statement to see when the money went. Actually carried more passengers and cargo than last year, fuel price was high (now $100 less a barrel), paid some cargo fines, repurchased shares, dividends paid etc. I expect te full year results to be profitable, just like 2003.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 730 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6114 times:

Well I did some research and pulled these numbers from Yahoo Finance. These percents are net margin (Net Income / Revenue) The first number is previous fiscial year and the second column is past four quarters which is also the column the sort descending is on. Delta has alot of one time expenses during the 1st quarter of the year which is why they're at the bottom and probably why UAL is there also.

Company...............................Previous Year...............Past 4 Quarters
Republic Airways Holdings Inc...........6.40%................6.02%
Allegiant Travel Company..................8.74%................4.55%
Hawaiian Holdings, Inc......................0.72%................3.77%
SkyWest, Inc.................................. 4.72%................3.68%
Southwest Airlines Co.......................6.54%................3.21%
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc.......8.47%................3.04%
Pinnacle Airlines Corp.......................4.40%................0.66%
JetBlue Airways Corporation..............0.63%................-0.69%
Alaska Air Group, Inc........................3.57%................-1.56%
Continental Airlines, Inc.....................3.23%................-2.30%
Mesa Air Group, Inc.........................-5.51%...............-5.20%
AirTran Holdings, Inc.........................2.28%................-6.19%
ExpressJet Holdings, Inc.................. -4.17%................-6.60%
AMR Corporation...............................2.20%................-7.51%
Frontier Airlines Holdings...................-4.31%................-8.09%
US Airways Group, Inc.......................3.65%................-14.40%
UAL Corporation................................1.95%................-19.82%
Delta Air Lines, Inc............................8.42%................-27.95%

EDIT to clean up table for readablity.

[Edited 2008-12-03 21:32:34]

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2565 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5913 times:

Thanks DurangoMac for that great list.

Looking over the results you can see that there isn't any one formula for making a profit. Being in the right place at the right time appears to have as much of an influence as intelligent planning.

From what I see, here's a few comments:

Republic and Skywest are profitable because a large part of their business is fee-for-departure. They make their money whether the flights are full or empty. Also, they've been able to hang on to their contracts while other regionals like Mesa and ExpressJet have lost business (and profit).

Hawaiian and Southwest have profited because of good business models, and an intense effort on reducing costs without hurting their expected product. This keeps the passengers happy while keeping the expenses down. HA also benefited by the removal of Aloha and ATA from their primary markets - something to note as HA was the only airline on the list that increased their profit year-over-year.

Allegiant (and to a lesser degree Southwest) has perfected the LCC model of no-frills flights at rock bottom prices. There's enough people willing to fly out of some out-of-the-way airports to keep Allegiant in business. However they are probably vulnerable if another well-financed competetor enters their market niche. They have a healthy profit margin, but since that profit is small in real dollars compared to some other airlines, it wouldn't take much competition with another airline to put a big dent in those numbers.

Atlas Air benefits from having a lot more foreign and international business than other US based cargo carriers. They've been somewhat insulated from the US financial crisis. However those problems are spreading across the world and Atlas may have trouble in 2009.

The rest of the airlines simply failed to anticipate or brace for the falling economy, lower traffic, and soaring fuel prices. The one bright spot for everyone here is that oil prices are now less than one third of their high point over the summer. Now if they can just get people in the seats we might see more airlines on the top portion of that chart next year.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5900 times:

Qf are doing Ok - still on track to make about $500M profit

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5670 times:

SQ are doing very well indeed.


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4401 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5601 times:

With fuel currently cheaper than dirt, airlines that are so badly managed that they cannot adopt to the current market changes should fire their management immediately.

After all the price increases, with costs lower than for many years, no airline should be in the negative.


User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5593 times:

TK and AB recently announced profits.  Smile

Apart from that SQ and LH must be the Number 1´s. EK is also in the plus but their win dropped to 80 million.


User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1411 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5534 times:

Although not necessarily doing "brilliantly", I believe the key scheduled airlines in the UK: BA, U2, FR, BE, BD all reported profits in their most recent financial reports.

(although a full year profit at BD is "unlikely").



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,(..51 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7366 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5098 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 7):
Allegiant (and to a lesser degree Southwest) has perfected the LCC model of no-frills flights at rock bottom prices. There's enough people willing to fly out of some out-of-the-way airports to keep Allegiant in business. However they are probably vulnerable if another well-financed competetor enters their market niche. They have a healthy profit margin, but since that profit is small in real dollars compared to some other airlines, it wouldn't take much competition with another airline to put a big dent in those numbers.

First, let me say I still say Allegiant is the most profitable airline. Republic is more of an operational services company. I know they fly planes around, but they don't sell a product to consumers. I would put them in another category like NetJets that also flies planes around, but isn't an airline.

The thing about Allegiant is that it would be VERY hard for somebody to come into their markets. Northwest tried entering 3 or 4 of their markets and failed really quickly because their markets are so small that nobody else can figure out how to make them work much less even fight to get them...and now they have so many markets it would be extremely difficult to mess with them. Allegiant only flies a flight when they are certain it will make money (meaning spot cancellations, whole fleet sits on Tuesdays, stations close for whole months at a time, etc.) . Nobody else does that and there are a lot of reasons for that.

Also, Allegiant is completely divorced from the airline mentality of attack and retaliate. They jsut do their own thing and stay out of the blast zone. Very smart.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5821 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5055 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 7):
They have a healthy profit margin, but since that profit is small in real dollars compared to some other airlines, it wouldn't take much competition with another airline to put a big dent in those numbers.

The one thing about Allegiant to also remember is they own most of their fleet outright, no payments on them. They do not have to keep money coming in to cover costs. They can easily expand and contract the company.

That is what they did the last few months as fuel cost rose. Allegiant reduced fleet utilization to a low 6.4 block hours per day in the 3Q.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4977 times:

SWISS is doing well. Less profit than the huge one of last year (about 300 mi €) but still a good one this year. It contributes a large part to its parent company LH's profit.

User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7366 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4964 times:



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 14):
That is what they did the last few months as fuel cost rose. Allegiant reduced fleet utilization to a low 6.4 block hours per day in the 3Q.

Although their utilization is never very high anyway. What's their 2007 average, maybe 7.5?

Quoting Enilria (Reply 13):
Allegiant only flies a flight when they are certain it will make money

Low utilization is an outgrowth of my comment above. It's really the old PBA strategy before People Express bought them.


User currently offlineMutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4701 times:

Historic numbers are sadly no guide as things started deteriorating in Augst and dropped like a stone in October 2008. Both BA and SQ reported half year profits(pre one offs etc) down circa 90%, albeit both still profitable.

EK last quarter numbers saw profits down 88%

you get the picture from these.......

Others will do better for longer then see the same effect as the global recession spreads. Most major carriers have issued some form of profit warning over the past 3 months. LH most recenty and AFKL before, ripped up previous guidance. Both have avoided the worst effects until most recently

Now, who is doing OK?
A year ago I would have said if the worlds most profitable carriers were generating operating profits of $1.3b then anyone making say 50% of that was doing OK

Well today frankly any carrier still in business with 12 months cash in the bank today is doing OK, whether they are currently profitable or otherwise. It really depends what you define as OK.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4550 times:

When I think of airlines doing O.K. I tend to think of ET, VS and CM.


I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3988 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4494 times:
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well, one would think we (CO) are doing okay.........we've been handing out raises/promotions to top management, and the bottom feeders will be getting raises Jan. 1.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineStarGuy From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4472 times:



Quoting GCT64 (Reply 12):
Although not necessarily doing "brilliantly", I believe the key scheduled airlines in the UK: BA, U2, FR, BE, BD all reported profits in their most recent financial reports.

Hey, don't forget about VS!!!


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4327 times:



Quoting DurangoMac (Reply 6):
esa Air Group, Inc.........................-5.51%...............-5.20%



Quoting DurangoMac (Reply 6):
Delta Air Lines, Inc............................8.42%................-27.95%


How can mesa be doing better than Delta?



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4236 times:

I am not 100% sure but I have heard that

Caribbean Airlines (BW) is doing well.

Mexicana (MX) should be doing ok as well.



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

The two majors in Japan, NH & JL, are doing OK too. They are still posting profits and taking delivery of new aircraft.
They would be doing even better had Boeing gotten the 787 managed right and be in domestic service by now replacing the relatively gas guzzling 767s or 744Ds.


User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4069 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4091 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting HAL (Reply 7):
Atlas Air benefits from having a lot more foreign and international business than other US based cargo carriers.

Atlas Air benefits from operating most of their flights on an ACMI basis where they do not pay for the fuel...



I've got $h*t to do
25 DurangoMac : Delta recorded a huge one time expense in May which I bet is for all the people who took early retirement.
26 CXA330300 : Since when? I remember quite recently they were doing very very badly....
27 Gonzalo : Hi Everybody, greetings from Chile. Our beloved LAN Airlines is one of the carriers doing very well ( not only now, since a long time ago indeed... )
28 FrmrCAPCADET : Not an economist, but I have never read anything to dispute my suspicians that the reasons airlines fail is that the momentum of costs and expenses is
29 United1 : Those percentages include the billions that UA and DL/NW wrote off of goodwill....in addition to the early retirement/special charges.
30 LH469 : LH is doing well. Will continue to be an alpha global airline.
31 Captaink : BWIA West Indies Airways (BW) was doing very badly. But that airline was shut down and its assets (airplanes etc) taken up by Caribbean Airlines (als
32 DurangoMac : I completely forgot about that, those were pretty large ammounts, take those amounts out and they really didn't do as bad.
33 Post contains links LH469 : Good premium product, global network and alliance strength as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrLCob4ch60
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