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AA Blasts Union, Pilots Walk Out  
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17481 posts, RR: 45
Posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12430 times:

AA laid out a very well reasoned presentation on APA's proposal, or lack thereof. The APA walked out.

The article:

http://startelegram.typepad.com/sky_...-blasts-union-pilots-walk-out.html

The evidence:
http://www.aanegotiations.com/docume...PresentationforAANegotiations3.pdf


E pur si muove -Galileo
175 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12226 times:



Quote:
But the mediator's presence hasn't had much impact so far, and union officials are pushing the board to declare the two sides at an impasse. Under federal rules, that would allow the union to strike or take other job actions after a 30-day period.

Honestly I don't think that it will get to this point. But if both sides are stubborn enough, I guess it can. In situations like this when you have the second largest airline in the world who is by the way a United States flag carrier on the brink of strike, you can probably expect a call from the President. But we've seen in the past that this does not always work.

Quote:
AA pilots are currently among the industry's highest
compensated and least productive pilots.

That box...


I also love the "Our Proposals APA's Solutions slides"...

We're right and they're wrong!

Propaganda at the end was a nice touch.

I'm not very educated on this subject but I think I will find all the comments, well, educating!

So basically, they decided to walk out because they felt that they did not adhere to and follow the proposed agenda?



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12160 times:

You have to remember who made this presentation. Guaranteed the Union could make one full of facts just as far in the other direction.

Its all about warping facts, only talking about the points that help your cause, and blatantly misrepresenting things. AA's management appears to be very good at this.

Such as the section on scope, AA states that it would eliminate regional/connector traffic if the scope section outlawed it. That couldn't be farther from the truth. The AA pilots aren't asking for those jets to be parked, they're asking for them to be flown by AA. What a concept, planes with "American Airlines" painted on the side actually being flown by American Airlines!


And, of course, you must remember that in negotiations, everyone takes an extreme stance in their direction and then you work towards the middle. Thats what negotiating is. Glad to finally see a pilot group that is actually fighting for this profession... would be nice if others did the same.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22983 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12091 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4):
What a concept, planes with "American Airlines" painted on the side actually being flown by American Airlines!

The scope clause isn't really about who flies the aircraft (which is, by and large, irrelevant, especially if MQ remains wholly-owned). It's about paying more than market rates for 70-seaters. I'm sure APA would be more than happy to let MQ fly as many CR7s as they wanted if they were going to pay pilots S80 rates to fly them.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12056 times:

Bobnwa,

This is really how most negotiations in most industries get done. Everyone postures for the media and public using rhetoric that almost never makes it to the negotiating table. But in the end, they are working toward the same goal.

The company always, always, wants to cut its costs, not matter whether it is doing well or poorly. The union always, always, is looking to increase wages and benefits for its members. But what most outsiders don't see (or just ignore) is that these two entities are run by people who spend a huge amount of time looking over the financial statements of the company. They all know exactly how much the company can really afford, and how much (in both directions) is too much. The difference between the two sides is normally small, say 1 or 2%. But it is that small percentage that you hear all the noise about. For example, the UAW has allowed some huge cuts in its contracts at the Big-3 automakers in the last few years because they do see the clear message on the economic impact on their industry.

For the most part, companies aren't ogres. They need motivated and skilled workers to get their product to market. For the most part, unions aren't greedy hogs that are willing to take the company down at the slightest provocation. They have poured years of sweat and energy into making the company what it is. It takes some extraordinary circumstances, and a lot of bull-headed stubborness, to force a strike.

But in regards to your statement about "Isn't being in the top 95% of all wage earners in the US adequate compensation?", it takes two to make a contract. The company wouldn't be paying that cost if they felt the pilots weren't doing a job worthy of that pay, and the union wouldn't be negotiating for that pay if they knew it would bring the company down.

A lot of people are jealous of the money pilots make. But like some other professionals, you can't just go out on the street and find an equally qualified person to do the job at a lower salary. Yes, pilots make a lot of money. But they have a lot of responsibility - and lives - at their fingertips. They get paid well by the company because that attracts the best to the field, and having the best people doing the job means less of a chance that a catastrophe will empty the company's bank accounts. Again, it is a simply economic reality that governs how much pilots are paid.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12034 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4):
You have to remember who made this presentation. Guaranteed the Union could make one full of facts just as far in the other direction.

Its all about warping facts, only talking about the points that help your cause, and blatantly misrepresenting things. AA's management appears to be very good at this.

Such as the section on scope, AA states that it would eliminate regional/connector traffic if the scope section outlawed it. That couldn't be farther from the truth. The AA pilots aren't asking for those jets to be parked, they're asking for them to be flown by AA. What a concept, planes with "American Airlines" painted on the side actually being flown by American Airlines!


And, of course, you must remember that in negotiations, everyone takes an extreme stance in their direction and then you work towards the middle. Thats what negotiating is. Glad to finally see a pilot group that is actually fighting for this profession... would be nice if others did the same.

I think the pilots union should do it as well..that's what the federal mediators are for..to separate the facts from the hype.

What's not professional however is walking out of a meeting.

They should have sat down, listened to it and offered a rebuttal and a "working time-line" with the federal mediators which AA management would agree to.

Though I'm more "pro-management" (but not really anti-union), I think both sides need to grow up a bit and stop being hypocritical.



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11949 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 7):
The difference between the two sides is normally small, say 1 or 2%. But it is that small percentage that you hear all the noise about.

Normally, but not in this case.

APA has told the media that they want far higher than 1% or 2%.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7598 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11833 times:

I really wish the union would quit acting like spoiled children. Im almost convinced that the APA is the source of most of AA 's problems. They are some of the most greedy people in the industry.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11613 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 10):
They are some of the most greedy people in the industry.

They claim the same of the management. Matter and Anti-matter.

APA does have many examples from AA to point out. Many of those points have been seen here, and on other boards.

My 2 cents? I think it will get fugly.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11536 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 9):
Quoting HAL (Reply 7):
The difference between the two sides is normally small, say 1 or 2%. But it is that small percentage that you hear all the noise about.

Normally, but not in this case.

APA has told the media that they want far higher than 1% or 2%.

I think HAL was noting that the OVERALL cost difference is usually something like 1-2% (OK it may be 3%) when you include everything, not just pilot pay.

I don't know what is being sought by either side, can anyone give a snapshot summary of what the pilots want vs what the management is offering?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11523 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 1):
Isn't being in the top 95% of all wage earners in the US adequate compensation?

I'd make a guess that 95% of the wage earners in the US are not quailfied to pilot an aircraft for a major airline. So it is really irrelevant where the AA pilots fit among the wages of all people in the US.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
I'm sure APA would be more than happy to let MQ fly as many CR7s as they wanted if they were going to pay pilots S80 rates to fly them.

beyond the 70 seaters that Eagle is allowed to fly, AA could have as many of them as they want, or even 90 seat RJs, if the AA pilots fly them. I doubt they would make MD80 wages, but the two sides would have to agree on the pay.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 10):
I really wish the union would quit acting like spoiled children

A couple of years ago, in a year when AA lost money, management awarded themselves over $200 million in bonuses. Now who is acting like spoiled children??


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22983 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11451 times:



Quoting Okie73 (Reply 13):
I doubt they would make MD80 wages, but the two sides would have to agree on the pay.

...I think you and I both know what APA would want, and I guarantee it would be more than what US pays 190 pilots.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11405 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
I think you and I both know what APA would want, and I guarantee it would be more than what US pays 190 pilots.

well, since USAir pays a 190 pilot less than ASA, Eagle or CMR pays a CRJ-700 pilot, yes, I think they would want more than US pays it's 190 pilots.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17481 posts, RR: 45
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11379 times:



Quoting Tugger (Reply 12):
I don't know what is being sought by either side, can anyone give a snapshot summary of what the pilots want vs what the management is offering?

Look at the powerpoint; it's pretty much spelled out.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 10):
They are some of the most greedy people in the industry.

It's not the greed that bothers me so much as the complete ignorance of basic economics.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 13):
I'd make a guess that 95% of the wage earners in the US are not quailfied to pilot an aircraft for a major airline. So it is really irrelevant where the AA pilots fit among the wages of all people in the US.

They're probably in the top tier of pilot wages as well--definitely in the top 10% of AA employees...



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7598 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11347 times:



Quoting Okie73 (Reply 13):
Now who is acting like spoiled children??

Walking out of a meeting like that is acting like spoiled children. Period. If they want to be taken serious they cant act like that. Theres room for improvement for management as well, but what the pilots are asking is absurd.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11323 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
basic economics.

I don't call it "basic economics" I call it extreme profit redistribution in the hands of shareholders and executives at the expense of everyone else, both the employees AND the customers, most who get turned off by the lack of well trained, highly paid and happy employees and who go to another carrier.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11303 times:



Quoting Okie73 (Reply 13):
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 1):
Isn't being in the top 95% of all wage earners in the US adequate compensation?

I'd make a guess that 95% of the wage earners in the US are not quailfied to pilot an aircraft for a major airline. So it is really irrelevant where the AA pilots fit among the wages of all people in the US.

..but the free market doesn't believe they should be making as much compared to their peers...at least in the United States.

Pilots are fortunate than most people in that if they had to move,they can move abroad and work in other countries (other carriers) as their skills are highly sought after.

For example, I had a visitor come over to my house recently (he worked for AA for a number of years so we had a fun time discussing aviation, etc.). His cousin was sitting on the right seat for AA (widebody) for a number of years. He winds up taking an offer from a Middle East carrier to fly on the left seat with literally a double in salary as well as other benefits,etc....he jumped all over it.



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11302 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
They're probably in the top tier of pilot wages as well--

see, that's a valid argument. And yes, they are.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 17):
Walking out of a meeting like that is acting like spoiled children

That is how the game is played. In many negotiations, both the union and management have walked out at one point.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 17):
what the pilots are asking is absurd.

Frankly, I agree with you. The AA pilots pay is not so much the issue, but their work rules have to change. They are way, way, behind the changes made at other major airlines.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17481 posts, RR: 45
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11303 times:



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 18):
I call it extreme profit redistribution in the hands of shareholders and executives at the expense of everyone else

Where do you think the pay increase for the pilots would come from?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11293 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 7):

HAL

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 


What an excellent, well thought out post!

Too bad it's about to be drowned in a whole sea of "unions-are-a-cancer-on-America" type postings...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8528 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11232 times:

It sounds like things are going well. AA is flying safely, and possibly headed for another bankruptcy. Pilots are asking for a raise (less emotional than usual, a clever move by them). This is business as usual. For unions and companies to agree, would be insane. That would be unusual. Conflict like the above, is normal in the airline industry. It shows everybody is paying attention and thinking.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 20):
That is how the game is played. In many negotiations, both the union and management have walked out at one point.

 checkmark  And they are going home and having normal days with their families. This has been going on for decades and will continue to go on for decades.

[Edited 2008-12-04 12:14:41]

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11232 times:

APA is viewing what the company is offering as a concessionary contract. As long as AA is able to keep from hitting rock bottom financially, APA is not going to move from its position that AA doesn't really need to make cuts of the nature that are proposed.

but once again, AA's inability to find a solution to work w/ its labor is hurting AA's ability to compete long-term and grow, including acquiring new aircraft like the 787. It also is not a given that the oneworld JV will move forward until the labor issues are resolved.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22983 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11213 times:



Quoting Okie73 (Reply 15):
well, since USAir pays a 190 pilot less than ASA, Eagle or CMR pays a CRJ-700 pilot, yes, I think they would want more than US pays it's 190 pilots.

So what's a 'fair' wage for a 190? You seem to have an idea of an equitable pay scale, so why don't you propose it?

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 18):
most who get turned off by the lack of well trained, highly paid and happy employees and who go to another carrier.

So THAT is why no one is flying AA anymore... why they enjoy load factors in the 20s while all of their competitors fill every available seat. [/sarcasm]

The (sad) fact is that most customers don't really care how employees act. They'll fly whoever is cheapest or whoever has the best schedules.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7598 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11301 times:



Quoting Okie73 (Reply 20):
Frankly, I agree with you. The AA pilots pay is not so much the issue, but their work rules have to change. They are way, way, behind the changes made at other major airlines.

Sadly, I have to agree. AA is way behind in this catagory.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5271 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11266 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
AA is flying safely, and possibly headed for another bankruptcy.

When was their first?  scratchchin 



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
25 Flyf15 : Sure, a 53% pay raise in these times is unreasonable, but they don't expect to get it. Its all about bargaining. I also agree that pilots at American
26 Tugger : Unfortunately it is not opening for me. My Adobe is having a problems. Tugg
27 Cubsrule : What was the AA F100 pay scale? I've asked here several times and no one has been able to produce it. If pilots will fill the seats, why is that an i
28 413X3 : You are a radical capitalist, ironically Adam Smith would call you too extreme for his tastes. You believe everyone is out to serve the wealth holder
29 Cubsrule : I'm not sure that airlines have really enriched "wealth-holders." Management, perhaps. Stockholders, not so much.
30 MaverickM11 : I didn't say anything! All I asked is how are you going to pay for the pilots' demands? It's a very simple question. The money has to come from somew
31 Gsosbee : Or better, no airline, no need for pilots. This is the key, if there is not an employer, there will not be any employees. As is proven several times
32 413X3 : even when times were good there was still demand to lower pay, it is a convenient excuse to make everyone slaves to the owners
33 413X3 : not every penny made should be considered the shareholders and the shareholders only
34 Cubsrule : ...and it isn't. Look at the financial performance of the industry over the past 50 years (the industry's financial performance actually wasn't great
35 Jacobin777 : ..non sequitur the contract negotiations have nothing to do with JV. ..AA already have a huge LOI for B787's and the unions have agreed to it.
36 MaverickM11 : Forget the shareholders. The pilots want billions in wage and benefit increases. Where does that come from? It has to come from somewhere, either inc
37 Flyf15 : Unfortunately for everyone involved, pilots and airlines alike, the seniority system, contracts, lack of other career options (sure, there are other
38 Cubsrule : Why are pilots different from any other profession? What is a 'livable wage?' Where should the money come from?
39 BigGSFO : Doesn't AA still has the option of filing bankruptcy?
40 Ikramerica : No fuel, no airline. No F/As, no airline. No airports, no airline. No tires, no airline. So should the airline just pay each group as much as they wa
41 FlyPNS1 : But last I checked, no payscale has been negotiated for the 787. Everything you said is true, but the pilots and company agreed to it. The pilots hav
42 Gsosbee : All the owners do is provide the capital required to buy/lease airplanes and pay employees. If you can figure out a better system, please enlighten u
43 Flyinryan99 : Please correct me if my thinking is wrong, but weren't these in stock options and the likes? If so, wouldn't these be worth about 200 pennies right n
44 Ikramerica : And even those who only buy in through the stock market play a vital role. They support the stock price which allows the company to get quality loans
45 Sbworcs : Having read through the PDF file If someone could someone please explain (to a non aviation expert!) what this "scope" thing is all about! From the PD
46 LAXdude1023 : Profits??? What are these profits that you speak of? I was unaware airlines could make profits. Is this something new? Hahaha, good one! The pilots a
47 Flyf15 : Scope is the section of a pilot contract that says who it applies to. In past times, it pretty much just said "this contract applies to all pilots fl
48 MAH4546 : I have no respect for unions - whether airline, automotive, film industry or otherwise. Don't like your job? Quit and deal with it.
49 Post contains links AAORY : The unions haven't agreed to anything. There is actually nothing to agree on for the TWU or APFA. The company will have to negotiate a pay rate for t
50 Alias1024 : After looking at the pay scales for American, I highly doubt that the average pilot salary at AA is in excess of $200,000 per year. Further, what do
51 NWAESC : Hey look! Here's one now... That didn't take long...
52 Ikramerica : If this were true, AA wouldn't be fighting it. I know of no major company that allows you to accumulate sick pay for 40+ years and then pays you at t
53 LMP737 : You were spot on when you said a lot of this is posturing. That's what happens when there are negotiations between a company and a union. Sometimes t
54 Alias1024 : I guess you mean you were looking at captain pay. Depending on how hard they work, I could see $200,000 being a reasonable average of widebody captai
55 Pyrex : I'd make a guess that 95% of wage earners in the US are not qualified to be Medical Doctors either, and when was the last time you saw massive amount
56 MaverickM11 : Even in an industry that is full of bluster, the looney tunes APA is in its own universe.
57 Luisca : No, because 95% of the population is not qualified to be an airline pilot and wages have been slashed in the last decade and we need to go back to pr
58 LAXdude1023 : Its a huge number reguardless who gets it. In order for that to happen, the industry needs to be the way it was in pre 9/11. It isnt and the pilots n
59 MaverickM11 : Who is paying for this? No one seems to be able to answer this one small detail.
60 Luisca : Passenger, by paying real fares instead of 99 dollar transcons! raise fares, problem solved.
61 Cubsrule : If fares go up, passengers change airlines. If no one flies AA, AA liquidates. Are the pilots better off then?
62 Tugger : Part of the problem is that it was a regulated industry. The employee groups got used to being able to negotiate for more money, benefits, etc. and t
63 Okie73 : I agree with others who suggest that the 190 pay what the F100 used to pay, or at least what the F100 would pay today after the same pay cuts all the
64 Luisca : All airlines have to raise fares, and if you cant make enough money on one route to cover your expenses then you pull out and try a different route,
65 PRAirbus : Article says AA pilots union is against ALL codesharing! Where are they living? What are they smoking? They are indeed ignorants...AA is doomed. I say
66 Cubsrule : One idea I think is really interesting is some sort of nationwide seniority list that all carriers follow. Implementing it would be a trick, but it w
67 Flyf15 : Say you have a senior 777 captain at American maxed out on his payscale. $205/hr. He gets all of his 53% raise and his payrate goes to $313/hr. Total
68 Cubsrule : You're arguing by assertion. How do you know that no one will notice a $2 fare increase?
69 FlyPNS1 : But AA's network also generates signficant revenue premiums over B6, so I would argue that the payscale should be based in part on the revenue genera
70 Flyf15 : Because these tickets for trans-atlantic voyages such as those in my example are many hundreds of times that even for the coach fares. First class ti
71 PlanesNTrains : Wow. I agree that a theoretical increase fare increase would help, but that's in theory. In reality, don't you think carriers would do this if they c
72 Gsosbee : 0% of pilots are qualified to do what I do, so what does that say? Nothing. Whether it is Mainline or Regional, it does not make a difference when on
73 Flighty : No, nobody is looking at ticket price increases now. I could tell you that just $1.00 for every person in America will make me $300,000,000. Wow, rig
74 Cubsrule : That's a fair argument. I might retort that, to compare apples to apples, you need to look at AA's 190s versus B6's 190s, though, and I'm not sure th
75 Par13del : Why should they be the sacrificial lambs, why did the other pilots not fight to have their contract be the model for other airlines to follow, is it
76 Buddys747 : I agree. As much as we hate increases, times have changed. The cost of living has gone way up . I would pay a few dollars more if I knew it was benef
77 MaverickM11 : Awesome. How 'bout a solution that doesn't involve magical mushrooms and unicorns?
78 Cubsrule : Are most consumers like you? I've seen no evidence that they are...
79 Luisca : That is true that's why I said that any pay increase at AA has to be tied to a union concession for more productivity. That is correct, but then you
80 Cubsrule : Interesting that you bring up the professional word... most professionals (lawyers, doctors, etc.) are not unionized. Furthermore, both medical resid
81 WorldTraveler : good job. despite what some believe, AA's future and its ability to move forward on strategic initiatives are very much tied to the pilot contract. P
82 Flyf15 : Doctors and Lawyers have some of the strongest unions in the country. American Bar Association, American Medical Association, American Dental Associa
83 Alias1024 : Are you sure? I've met pilots that in former careers have been medical doctors, engineers, CPAs, investment bankers on wall street, and lawyers. AA a
84 Flyf15 : Exactly. The combined DL/NW has something, I've heard, on the order of 850 regional aircraft. If all of those were brought into the new Delta seniori
85 USAFDO : . AA Pilots-----STAND YOU GROUND !!!!!!! If the Boeing employees can win....... you guys can too! Boeing was willing to waste.....WASTE $100 million d
86 Pyrex : And how much of that revenue premium is created by pilots? Oh yeah, 0%. I repeat ZERO PERCENT of the amount of money AA is able to extract on each fl
87 HAL : Over and over and over on this thread I've read people saying "Pilots are demanding a 53% increase". NO, they aren't. They are NEGOTIATING A CONTRACT.
88 Pyrex : So if pilots and other airline employees are so knowledgeable about how to manage and airline and CEO's so inept then why don't they run an airline t
89 Jacobin777 : They have agreed in principle of AA ordering the B787 and are expecting to have the negotiations completed well before AA orders the plane. Speaking
90 PlanesNTrains : They have the ability to grow into a wage bracket that few Americans will ever see. Please do not claim that WalMart offers more. That's just a$$inin
91 WorldTraveler : but the contract is still contingent on a pilot agreement. Period. which is what I've said all along. At some point, it becomes better for AA to take
92 HAL : How many regional crashes in the past 10 years blamed on pilot error vs. major airlines? How many years experience did the regional pilots have vs. t
93 Jacobin777 : Thanks for stating the obvious. AA obviously has a different strategy than DL..both seem to be working. BK isn't fun for anyone except for lawyers, e
94 PhilSquares : Since you seem to be an "expert". Perhaps you know all about labor unions and Singapore? If so, please tell us! A labor union in Singapore is essenti
95 EXAAUADL : AA's never been in bankruptcy The union is playing a dangerous game. There might not be a Ch11 filing for AA it might go straight to Ch7
96 Par13del : That seems to be what some think is in the best interest of the airline industry, capacity would be reduced, the other airlines would be able to rais
97 Pyrex : Over the last 10 years there was one accident with scheduled passenger jets in domestic service in the U.S. (excluding 9/11). That accident just happ
98 Lexy : There is something we certainly can agree on Mark. I used to really believe in the union propoganda. I come from a historically strong union part of
99 Post contains links PhilSquares : That is where you're wrong. The complexity of international transoceanic operations compared to domestic operations is like night and day. The job of
100 Pyrex : Just because US pilots are not used to flying across borders that is their problem. For an airline like KLM pretty much every flight is international
101 PhilSquares : But this thread is SPECIFICALLY about the APA vs. AA management situation. Nothing more nothing less. And if you re-read my reply, I specifically men
102 Okie73 : I have never heard a union claim a 777 is harder to fly than a 767. In fact, I have had many pilots tell me the 777 is easier to fly. But the fact is
103 Incitatus : Can you explain how specific job performance and duties of pilots at a company say, AA, differ from say, B6, in a way that allows AA to generate reve
104 Okie73 : I don't think the union, or management, would argue that 190 should pay 2/3 of what a MD80 pays. By extension, you could then argue that the 777 shou
105 Pyrex : And none of that productivity is generated by the pilot. If I stuff more seats in, it becomes more productive. If I take economy seats out and put mo
106 Okie73 : while a short haul pilot may have more exposure to takeoffs and landings, he/she can only crash once. And a crash in a 50 seat RJ exposes the company
107 Pyrex : I think 9/11 showed everyone the potential for human fatalities from an aircraft crash (and consequent "lawsuit exposure" to the airline) is essentia
108 PhilSquares : So, using your logic, why should we compensate anyone other than the person who negotiates the deal? In the case of AA, they have compensated senior
109 Pyrex : The problem is that the only people who get compensated by the increased revenue are the people who have absolutely nothing to do with it in the firs
110 WILCO737 : Guys, this thread is drifting off topic... It is about the AA Unions. Please get back to topic and if you want to discuss something then use email or
111 Jacobin777 : ..I never said anything about the specifics of the SQ situation however we know there was a fundamental difference between the situation with SQ and
112 SPREE34 : A point (shared sacrifice) that APA wants addressed, and that will have to be addressed if the negotiations are to move forward. What a horrible opti
113 Post contains links AAORY : I'm curious as to exactly what you think the unions agreed to in principle. Contrary to what you believe, the unions have no say in what planes are b
114 Post contains links PhilSquares : Well, then as I said, the person(s) that negotiated the deal should then get the increases. That has been done by the stock options and management bo
115 Iaddca : with $40 oil and 6.7% unemployment they might have to lower fares
116 Slider : Do the AA pilots still want Super Bowl Sunday as an official paid holiday? That one cracked me up.
117 Incitatus : Does that mean the pilot of a Lear Jet should live on food stamps? Pay scales today have nothing to do with number of lawsuits. A junior mechanic can
118 Post contains links Jacobin777 : "The American pilots' union welcomed news of the 787 deal. The APA said the move is "long overdue," given that American operates "one of the oldest a
119 AAORY : Okay, I think I misinterpreted what you meant by agree in principle. I thought you meant they had been consulted about the purchase. My bad.
120 MaverickM11 : ...and if things don't go well, I'm sure AA will go the AC route.
121 Tugger : First, you don't get that individual airlines don't have any pricing power? They can't just raise fares, that's why they have been using fees to do i
122 Pyrex : I like it. Makes much more sense. Adjust for nights away from home, crappy schedules and all that but I see no reason why it shouldn't be the case. B
123 Jacobin777 : Great..I'm glad we got that sorted out... ... That is certainly one way to go and if things don't get resolved soon, it just might be the only way to
124 Cubsrule : I asked this very early in the thread, but I think it's worth asking again: is scope about whose name is on the side of the airplane or about how muc
125 413X3 : Please tell me the average compensation then for the executives who constantly cause share holders to lose money?
126 413X3 : Why would they want to do that? They want guaranteed money just like the executives grant themselves in good AND bad times. The problem is upper mana
127 Flighty : Well... we have the pilots we have. I'm not sure if you are saying we should manufacture more senior pilots magically or what. Young pilots are pilot
128 Pyrex : I know that was not directed at me but: I don't know about the US but in Portugal and other countries associations like the equivalent to the ABA and
129 413X3 : I believe if you paid higher regional salaries you would have a more experienced pilot in the left seat able to teach the younger pilot. Instead you u
130 Cubsrule : Can you point me toward a single accident that has been caused by inexperienced regional pilots? You're not seriously suggesting that there are too f
131 413X3 : Again more people using the strawman, just because an accident does not occur does not make the situation dangerous. Besides, any pilot error can be
132 Cubsrule : First (sorry to be a pedant...), it was 9E, not XJ. Second, the captain had nearly 7000 hours of total time and 973 in type. The f/o had 761 hours of
133 413X3 : It's not a guess, that isn't a large amount of hours considering you can be a CFI with 2k-3k hours. When you are paying pilots 20k or less that is cau
134 Tugger : How about that TAP senior pilot who flew his aircraft dangerously low at an airshow in Spain? How about the Singapore pilot who did the too low flyby
135 413X3 : So now because I said inexperienced can play a part in disasters, that means you can flip it around and claim that experienced pilots should thus be p
136 Cubsrule : But you haven't established that. Any fool knows how to get on the right runway (and anyone who had been around LEX with any regularity in the summer
137 Cubsrule : A first year YV DH8 f/o who flies his guarantee (76 hours) will make $17,328 per year exclusive of his per diem.
138 Tugger : What bene's and pension does he get? Tugg
139 Flyf15 : No pension, the only benefits are usually basic medical and travel, which depending on the airline/contract, can cut another big chunk out of your pa
140 Cubsrule : YV does match 401k up to 3%, though, IIRC.
141 Tugger : Those are guaranteed minimums, what are the real average earnings for pilots and F/O's there? Tugg
142 Flyf15 : In times like these, with overstaffing at a lot of airlines due to the draw backs in flying, aside from per diem, a lot of pilots just make guarantee
143 Cubsrule : I don't know that it's really fair to exclude per diem, though. Most people pay (out of their paychecks) for meals while they're at work. Pilots don'
144 Flyf15 : Well, on one hand, airport food is immensely more expensive than food just about anywhere else. Secondly, we have to buy all 3 meals each day... not
145 413X3 : Well "most people" also can have the comfort and cheapness of home cooked meals, while pilots on the road cannot
146 Luisca : FYI I graduated with a BS in management and I worked as a supervisor at a store before being hired by an airline. I never said that the regional pilo
147 PhilSquares : Wrong nationality and wrong airline! How can you make such an unrealistic statement! What does a pilot's living location have to do with pay? Do we p
148 Sbworcs : I would LOVE to be paid $50 per hour (or UK equivalent!) but unfortunately that is nowhere near what is average earnings in this country!!
149 Luisca : Pilots only work 60-80 hours a month, other hourly employees work at least double that. So a 20$ hour FO makes about the same as a 10$/hour burger fl
150 Okie73 : Ok, it's a dark stormy night. Would you rather get on an airplane piloted by 50 year old captain with 25 years and 15,000 hours of experiance, or wou
151 Flyf15 : Pilots are only paid for flight time. All that time preflighting, going through weather, boarding the plane, delaying with delays, connections, updat
152 Cairo : HaHaHaHaHaHaHa....right. The same reason the UAW and every union in history considers the seniority system Holy is because it protects wages - safety
153 Ikramerica : Exactly, and yet they are still paid quite well at majors after year 1. This is not different than a law partner, who may be able to bill his time to
154 Pyrex : Most industries pay based on location because local job markets are different and that is reflected in the cost of living in those locations. Don't t
155 Flyf15 : We get paid how many hours we fly. With all the airlines reducing flights lately, schedules have become a lot less efficient. A lot less hours flying
156 Incitatus : After this was quoted several times I have to say this is most innacurate posting in this entire thread. There is a much easier way to figure this ou
157 Flyf15 : I don't see how its that inaccurate. Its simply math that is pretty easy to figure with a basic calculator. You figure out how much the hourly pay ra
158 Pyrex : $150 for the captain. Plus at least $75 for the first officer, no? Four or five flight attendants on board, if each one gets around $40 that's $200 r
159 Jacobin777 : Then one needs to add "route planners", advertising, some people to actually run such a large organisation, landing fees, legal firms, insurance, etc
160 PhilSquares : What everyone is failing to realize, and this is a great example, it there is a great difference between simple stick and rudder skills and experienc
161 Alias1024 : My first leg of IOE I felt like I was hanging on to the static dischargers on the rudder.
162 Tugger : Call me crazy, but based on the criteria provided I can't say which I would prefer. Did the 27 year old captain come from the Air Mobility Command? I
163 Okie73 : you are right. It is possible for a new hire with 2000 hours to be a better pilot than an old head with 20,000 hours. However, all things being equal
164 Incitatus : If you don't see how it is inaccurate it is because you don't understand the problem at hand. Try the route of the total compensation and you will se
165 HAL : Really? How much of the total fare covers compensation? You need to know that in order to do your 'simple calcs'. The total fare also covers fuel, ai
166 PhilSquares : No it won't . If it's 8 hours of less, it's 2 pilots! So maybe you don't get it! Airlines adopt one of two approaches to reserve pay. If the guarante
167 Incitatus : I don't have to tell you. Airlines that are public companies have financial reports you can look up. Yawn dude. If you are after proving yourself rig
168 Qantas787 : Far too much emphasis is being put on the fact that management have helped themselves to some rather fanciful bonuses over the years, then turning it
169 PhilSquares : Perhaps you'd like to tell me where I said that? Oh, I didn't!!!! And your point is???? Or are you just trying to reinforce the fact you don't have a
170 Pyrex : Because we are not living in 1993!
171 PhilSquares : Duh!! No kidding, so I suppose you would be happy to work for 1993 wages? Again, what is so difficult to grasp about that concept?
172 Pyrex : Nothing difficult to grasp - we are not living in 1993 but in a different world, where airlines are not able to charge nearly as much as they did for
173 Qantas787 : Nothing more real than making ALL the decisions.
174 Cubsrule : ...and that difference is already accounted for. I'm not aware of any airline that pays pilots at different bases different salaries. That's at least
175 WILCO737 : Guys, this is getting too far off topic. Thread locked. WILCO737 (MD11F)
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