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NW/DL Pilot Seniority Integration Final On 08DEC  
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3214 posts, RR: 13
Posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14874 times:

Hey all,

Well, after binding arbitration, the combined NW/DL pilot seniority list will be released on Monday. Other than the "need-to-know" people, no NW or DL pilot knows what to expect.

A couple interesting points of mention with regard to the joint contract, in addition to payscales for the current fleet types, there are also mainline pilot payscales for:

ERJ-190/CRJ-900
ERJ-195
737-900ER

While I don't have any insider info, here are a few predictions on my part, as to what will happen:

- Immediate no-bump / no-flush policy in initial integration, aircraft, and base bidding.

- All captain slots for the 16x 744's fenced - to be flown only by NW pilots

- All captain slots for the current 8x 772ER's and all 772LR's delivered through 2009 (8x total) fenced - to be flown only by DL pilots

- All subsequent widebodies to enter the fleet, any additional 772LR's, 773ER, 787, bid for on seniority-only basis, open to both NW and DL crews. Possible fencing though, based on aircraft replacement/retirement, eg: 773ER replacing 744, 787 replacing 763ER.

212 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3424 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14857 times:

That all seems pretty reasonable. Any prediction on how the actual lists will be integrated?

Also, I believe the current DL contract has payscales for the CRJ-900/EMB jets.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3214 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14674 times:



Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 1):
Any prediction on how the actual lists will be integrated?

Not a clue. NW was arguing for a strict date-of-hire seniority list. DL was arguing for a composite "relative seniority" list, since how most DL pilots are, for the most part, junior to their NW counterparts. That is, a NW 744 captain was hired in 1979-1983, while most DL 777 captains were hired in 1983-1985. This is the trend all the way down the entire seniority list. A NW pilot hired in 1989 could hold A320 captain and possibly a very junior 757 captain, while a DL pilot hired in 1989 could hold 767 captain.


User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14601 times:

So the CR9 but not the E175?

Ill take things that make you go hmm for $300 TPac787



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineDoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3424 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14500 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
while a DL pilot hired in 1989 could hold 767 captain.

ATL or JFK?



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14486 times:

DL must be confident that things will work out okay since they have scheduled an investor conference for Tuesday at which there is a good chance they will announce further strategic plans.

Given that the joint OPS certificate isn't expected for over a year, everyone is fenced for at least that long. It is also likely that DL will make some changes to the fleet such as further removing DC9s and possibly 744s so I think the pilots really want as few fences as possible that tie them to particular fleet types. Anderson has said he really doesn't want a bunch of fences.


User currently offlineSurfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14466 times:



Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 4):
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
while a DL pilot hired in 1989 could hold 767 captain.

ATL or JFK?

ATL, JFK, CVG, LAX, and SLC


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7414 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14464 times:
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Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
NW was arguing for a strict date-of-hire seniority list.

We, the flight attendants are watching closely what the pilot do for seniority integration. How the pilots integrate could tell how Delta will integrate us, should the combined election between DL/NW flight attendants for AFA certification fail. If AFA wins representation of the combined vote, we will merge strict date of hire as per the AFA bylaws, and fence agreements will be put in place until the DOH issue is certified and agreed upon. If AFA loses, then it goes to "fair and equitable" clause. Who knows what that could mean. I think it should be DOH, nothing more, nothing less. My 12 years with the company should stand. I earned it, we all did, both sides, and it should stay that way.

[Edited 2008-12-06 21:39:13]


Made from jets!
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14421 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
I think it should be DOH, nothing more, nothing less. My 12 years with the company should stand. I earned it, we all did, both sides, and it should stay that way.

The only way to do seniority lists. Hopefully the ramp one goes the same, that is if DL decides to keep NWA ramp around in its current form... We'll see how the union vote goes.

[Edited 2008-12-06 22:03:20]


Hey Swifty
User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14372 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
We, the flight attendants are watching closely what the pilot do for seniority integration. How the pilots integrate could tell how Delta will integrate us, should the combined election between DL/NW flight attendants for AFA certification fail. If AFA wins representation of the combined vote, we will merge strict date of hire as per the AFA bylaws, and fence agreements will be put in place until the DOH issue is certified and agreed upon. If AFA loses, then it goes to "fair and equitable" clause. Who knows what that could mean. I think it should be DOH, nothing more, nothing less. My 12 years with the company should stand. I earned it, we all did, both sides, and it should stay that way.

Hey there Jet,
The pilot group is and has been an exception in almost any merger. They are the only group where there is a sticky issue with straight DOH. Pilots unlike the other groups are paid and calculated by equipment flown and seat held (except for a couple of airlines) That does not really come into play with any other work group as we are paid and topped out after a said number of years. So usually straight DOH seems to work for the most part for the other work groups but not the pilots. Too much training costs potentially involved etc..So they have fences or whatever but it is apples and oranges in realtion to other work groups. BTW I would have had 20 yrs this past August but thanks to the evil empire I now have 3 yrs with a new and better company. Good luck to you I hope DL and the new combined airline treats you better than I was treated.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14330 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
It is also likely that DL will make some changes to the fleet such as further removing DC9s and possibly 744s so I think the pilots really want as few fences as possible that tie them to particular fleet types

And by fence, I assume you mean freeze. A freeze would hold a pilot to a particular type. A fence does not hold anyone anywhere. It simply prevents pilots from one group bidding a seat on a type fenced for another. In this case, a fence would prohibit a DL pilot from bidding the 744.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14271 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
My 12 years with the company should stand. I earned it, we all did, both sides, and it should stay that way.

Mine too. Amen.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 8):
The only way to do seniority lists. Hopefully the ramp one goes the same, that is if DL decides to keep NWA ramp around in its current form... We'll see how the union vote goes.

I don't see any other way being "equitable."



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14248 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
ERJ-190/CRJ-900
ERJ-195
737-900ER

Why would the 737 ever have been in doubt about mainline status? I ask as it isn't a "regional" jet per say.

As to the 190, 900, and 195 -- mainline in sense of pay or mainline in sense of working for DL and not another company?

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):

I think you're quite right. The pilots' list will speak volumuns about DL's plans.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14164 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
It is also likely that DL will make some changes to the fleet such as further removing DC9s

There are a bunch of directors and the like at DL that love the DC9 for its cheap ownership costs.

I think the -9s will be around until they come up on a heavy check, then get a cycle diet (restricted usage to hold off the reaper) until the day comes, then leave the certificate.



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineLike2flyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14118 times:



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 13):
There are a bunch of directors and the like at DL that love the DC9 for its cheap ownership costs.

You got that right! I hear a lot of Northwest pilots say they enjoy flying the nine because they enjoy doing things the "old fashioned way". As odd as it seems, many of these old planes have a better maintenance track record than some of the new-fangled birds. They definitely have been the workhorse for Northwest. Planes are like cars: the more gadgets they have, the more there is to break. I suppose having to forgo a moonroof and rolling down the windows manually has been a successful cost saving measure.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6500 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14091 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
We, the flight attendants are watching closely what the pilot do for seniority integration. How the pilots integrate could tell how Delta will integrate us, should the combined election between DL/NW flight attendants for AFA certification fail.

If the pilot seniority is being decided by arbitration, how could that have a bearing on how DL as a company will implement the F/A seniority. I do agree with you on straight date of hire.


User currently offlineLike2flyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 14023 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
I do agree with you on straight date of hire.

I agree with date of hire, hire meaning the date you began working a particular position (pilot, flight attendant, customer service agent, etc). I don't feel that a flight attendant who was hired into the company 10 years before a pilot should be able to one day decide she wants to be a pilot and bump a pilot (because she has worked for the Company longer) to a lower seniority number. I guess my opinion leans more toward class and craft, seniority lists for different classifacations of work. However, for vacation bidding, I feel Company seniority is fair. I see it this way:

Delta began its roots in 1924. Northwest emerged in 1926. Employee Joe has been working as a pilot for Delta since 1972. Employee Roxy has been working as a pilot for Northwest since 1973. In 2008, Northwest and Delta merged to form ONE company named Delta Air Lines. The more recent company is made up of many mergers, including Western, Republic, Southern, etc etc. Now if someone asks Joe and Roxy how long they've been working for Delta, what is the answer (particularly Roxy's) they give? Joe can easily say he has been an employee of Delta since 1972. But what if earlier he came from Western? Does Roxy say she has only worked for Delta since October 28, 2008? (The date of the merger)

Since Delta now includes all of these previous companies, Joe would probably tell you he's been an employee of Delta since 1972 and Roxy would tell you she has worked for Delta since 1973. All these companies are now ONE, sadly disarming the names of all the old companies that came together to make this great, new company.

"Delta's roots can be traced back to Monroe, LA when it began crop dusting as Huff-Daland Dusters in 1924. Since then, Huff-Daland Dusters, through various mergers and acquisitions, has grown to be the airline we know today: Delta."

The point of how Delta became Delta is no longer relevent. Everyone (Northwest employees, Western employees, Republic employees, etc) have been working for a company that began its roots in 1924 for "X" number of years. If I've been a pilot at this "company" since 1972, my pilot seniority should be 1972. If I've been a a flight attendant since 1983 for this "company", my flight attendant seniority should be 1983.

I understand the issues pilots face when dealing with loss in pay because of being bumped to smaller aircraft, seniority in dealing with days off and bidding, etc. Those are the issues being worked out. Heck even employees such as flight attendants and customer service agents could be affected during job cuts. But what it boils down to is we've held these positions since we started them. And now because all of these companies are ONE company, we might as well say we've been working this job at this company for this amount of time. Sure, somebody is going to get burned and it's not going to work out well for them. It's going to work out great for others. And for many, things won't change a bit. But that's life. And unfortunately, that's seniority. 1972 = 1972, not 1972=1974,


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10528 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13803 times:

Well, the WA employees may say they've only worked for DL since '87 but in reality, they were given their original DOH with WA when the merger went into effect.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineRwy04LGA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13558 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 9):
BTW I would have had 20 yrs this past August but thanks to the evil empire I now have 3 yrs with a new and better company. Good luck to you I hope DL and the new combined airline treats you better than I was treated.

Since we know what airline you refer to as the 'evil empire', might you let us know what airline you refer to as 'a new and better company'?

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 8):
Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
I think it should be DOH, nothing more, nothing less. My 12 years with the company should stand. I earned it, we all did, both sides, and it should stay that way.

The only way to do seniority lists. Hopefully the ramp one goes the same

I agree, but there is a downside to the DL agents. When the NW crews are integrated, their more senior agents will dilute the seniority of the much junior DL agents. So, the DL agents will lose their prime days off and schedules to the senior NW agents. We bid every six months, so we would immediately lose those positions after the integration and not see them for a long time. OTOH, after integration, the NW agents will suddenly have available to them all of the prime schedules that the most senior DL agents once enjoyed. Not only maintaining the prime NW slots they currently enjoy, but gaining most of the prime DL slots.

If you were a DL agent who just lost his weekends off or who one who lost the morning shift and now can't be home to await her kids after school, would you be pleased with that?

While losing some NW jobs is only possible, DL agents losing their prime schedules is definite! It's not ALL NW suffering, as some imply here.

Please note that I AGREE with the DOH concept even though it is to my (our) detriment.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10528 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13533 times:

During the DL/WA merger, I got moved down the seniority list, somewhat. Consequently, I had to work a different shift but I didn't cry about it. It's the nature of the beast in the airline industry, just as changing stations is.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12526 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13517 times:

So, since there is no fencing for the A330s, DL pilots could in theory bid for these.

Presumably there will be integration courses to make sure that crews from one airline are not made to feel unwelcome or uncomfortable moving to a fleet dominated by another's crews?


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6500 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13478 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 20):
So, since there is no fencing for the A330s, DL pilots could in theory bid for these.

The seniority integration hasn't been announced yet. Where did you get the idea that there is no fencing for the A330?


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10528 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13444 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 21):
The seniority integration hasn't been announced yet. Where did you get the idea that there is no fencing for the A330?

Just based on the original post, I imagine.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3214 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13447 times:



Quoting Davescj (Reply 12):
Why would the 737 ever have been in doubt about mainline status?

It's not. I found it interesting because there is a planned payscale for 737-900ER, in addition to the 737-700 and 737-800, but there is no such payscale for A321.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
If the pilot seniority is being decided by arbitration,

It would set a major precedent for seniority integration. If strict date of hire integration is used, as NW is arguing for, that is most likely what will be used across the board for all labor groups. If composite relative seniority is decided on, that may have a large effect on how the other groups DOH's will stand in integration.

Quoting Like2flyguy (Reply 16):
1972 = 1972,

This is exactly what the NW pilots are arguing for.  thumbsup 

Quoting Like2flyguy (Reply 16):
not 1972=1974,

This is exactly what the DL pilots are arguing for.  thumbsdown 

Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 18):
Please note that I AGREE with the DOH concept even though it is to my (our) detriment.

If you're speaking with regard to the ramp, it will be to no one's detriment at DL as they only have in-house ramp at their hubs. Almost everywhere NW has in-house ramp, DL is outsourced.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13434 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 20):
So, since there is no fencing for the A330s, DL pilots could in theory bid for these.

Presumably there will be integration courses to make sure that crews from one airline are not made to feel unwelcome or uncomfortable moving to a fleet dominated by another's crews?

I assure you, there will be some type of fence for every aircraft type that each side brings to the party!

Just like I can assure you there will be no "hand holding" courses to make the tech crews feel better. For common aircraft, like the 757, there will be a melding of the SOP so one SOP prevails once the two carriers are on one certificate. Until then, the operations will remain divided.


25 Surfdog75 : The pilot seniority list integration was negotiated/arbitrated between the two pilot groups and an independent arbitrator/mediator. DL management obv
26 Burnsie28 : Date of hire would work perfect for both groups if arbitration is smart and puts a 5 year fence on everything, keeping NW crews only on current NW air
27 Transpac787 : Not really... We can use the notorious Roberts Award as an example, from the aftermath of the NW/RC merger. All widebody fleet types that were in the
28 Burnsie28 : Yeah really, the Roberts award shouldn't apply considering RC's largest aircraft at the time was a 757, thats why that was put in place. Had they bot
29 Belizexp : Correct!!! DOH it the best way to go...On a side note if DL never merge with NW workers would still have the seniority issue eg. Let say someone from
30 DingDong : Is that a bad thing, at the outset?
31 Mayor : That's still quite alot of people AND don't forget that ticket counter and gate agents are considered the same classification as ramp in DL's world a
32 PhilSquares : I left NWA in 95 and was right in the middle of the award. I looked up some info about the award in some old documents I have and unless it's been ch
33 Mayor : If the JFK agent was successful in his bid to transfer to LGA, the DOH would go with the agent to LGA. Same anywhere else in the system. When I trans
34 Transpac787 : The Roberts Award has everything to do with this, as principles established from it are being heavily used to argue the case for both NW and DL pilot
35 KingAir200 : It might not be so bad for the DL ramp. According to what I could find out, ATL, JFK, LGA, LAX, MCO, FLL, DCA, TPA, EWR, HNL, and MSY are the only ci
36 Mayor : I thought NW had people in SLC, too??
37 Burnsie28 : You can put a fence on them, hints why I said make a 5 year fence and then that will allow the seniority issue to be even. You can put in a fence if
38 KingAir200 : Nope. SLC is outsourced to ATS, I believe.
39 Transpac787 : Newly-hired pilots (so-called "blue book" pilots) are not restricted to any of the Roberts Award provisions, however none of them are senior enough t
40 PhilSquares : That's not a bump and flush! That is just seniority rights and bidding for a vacant position. A bump and flush is where one pilot group is allowed to
41 Burnsie28 : Yes it is ATS
42 Okie73 : The list, at least for the pilots, will not be DOH. It will end up very close to relative position. Halfway up the list today, halfway up the list to
43 Post contains links Transpac787 : Given your comments from this thread: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4164020/ Methinks your above comment is 100% w
44 NWAESC : There's DL ramp in ~14 cities. NW has them in 40. A few things come into play in a "combined city" like LGA. 1. Since there are now that many more fl
45 Nomadicnonrev : Read the transcripts of the arbitration...you actually think it will go straight DOH? Of course no one knows how the final list will shake out; but a
46 NWAESC : Where can one read these? Apologies in advance if it's already been listed and I missed it...
47 Dispatchguy : You got that right - the only flight management system is the grey matter between the pilot's ears. No autothrottle - just a rudimentary altitude hol
48 Surprise : I have been surprised since the merger happened that so much discussion and thought is being given to seniority. Other than pilots who are paid on the
49 Like2flyguy : As they should, since they have been flying for the Company longer!
50 Flyf15 : Seniority determines essentially everything about a pilot's career at an airline. Upgrades, plane types, bases, furloughs, vacation, schedules, etc.
51 Post contains links Filejw : Quoting Nomadicnonrev (Reply 45): Bloch is one of 3 arbitrators and has only one vote....[Edited 2008-12-07 12:23:07]
52 NomadicNonrev : From the NWA MEC Hotline on 11/15/08: "If you cannot attend the hearings, but desire to follow the progress of the SLI hearings, you can access and d
53 NomadicNonrev : Correct...there is Richard Bloch, Fred Horowitz and Dana Eischen. However, Bloch is the Chairman of the arbitration panel, so I mentioned his name. F
54 N801NW : As an airline non-employee I assume that at some point DALPA and NWALPA will merge their organizations? What is the precedent?[Edited 2008-12-07 13:55
55 Burnsie28 : It would be silly and completely unfair if they didnt do it DOH with a 5 year freeze/fence. After 5 years there would be little effect on seniority a
56 KingAir200 : If it says WFS on the CSAO website, it's WFS.
57 DeltaL1011man : DOH is the best way to go..............for the NWALPA. The DALPA gets screwed with DOH. I do Believe DOH is the best way but it likely wont happen. T
58 Transpac787 : A complete non-issue in the eyes of the arbiter. They aren't looking to choose the lesser of two evils, rather they are going to find the most fair w
59 Burnsie28 : Again not if they put a 5 year fence/freeze on it all. Below is an example of how relative seniority would work. Now there is a lot more to the equat
60 Doug_Or : Which I would think supports relative seniority upon integration...
61 DeltaL1011man : This is true..........guess I'm still think Delta is callng this one when they are not. Just hope we don't have a US/HP mess with this one. I belive
62 Burnsie28 : Read above what happens if you do relative. DOH as long as their is about a 5 year fence/freeze would be the way to go.
63 Transpac787 : Not really, as that heavily favors a DL pilot's career progression. A strict DOH is unbiased and unprejudiced. Your time served with the company stan
64 NomadicNonrev : I could be wrong, but I thought what Delta1011man meant by that was...piss off the pre-merger DL pilots (~8,000) while making pre- pilots merger NW h
65 Flyf15 : For all those arguing how strict DOH is fair... this isn't actually a merger, its an acquisition. I'm sure more than a couple Delta pilots would count
66 Doug_Or : I'm not against the idea of DOH per se, but if you are a 757 lineholding captain before the merger and you aren't able to hold that afterwards, then
67 Okie73 : wishful thinking, no. I have read the transcripts. DOH will not happen. The Delta proposal will not happen either, but the award will be a whole lot
68 Burnsie28 : Because otherwise NW pilots can lose up to 10 years of seniority with the Relative. I think all of this could have been avoided using a AF-KL type me
69 NomadicNonrev : Ok...I was trying to lead you there, to the conclusion that DL would disagree with the NW proposal just as much...instead, you decided to respond wit
70 Mayor : Whether it's a merger or an acquisition doesn't matter. DL left it up to the two pilot groups to decide how they wanted to solve the seniority proble
71 Gigneil : That's not correct. It was structured as, and is, a merger. NS
72 NomadicNonrev : Both negotion teams (DL and NW) agreed (and Bloch stated) that this is a "merger of equals"...so this whole opinion that DL "saved" NW or vice-versa
73 Intl767400 : It will be favored to relative seniority. All the rulings recently and the ALPA by -laws favor this type of ruling. People can come up with extreme ca
74 WorldTraveler : There is a whole lot of speculation about what will be announced in 48 hrs but I know that Richard Anderson and DL mgmt wants as few freezes or fences
75 Post contains images Transpac787 : It seems you still neither know the difference between a freeze and a fence, nor what they mean. A "freeze" is something a company puts in place on i
76 Rwy04LGA : I work at one of those airports. Sounds logical. Incorrect. It was, is, and always will be an acquisition, Regardless of how it was structured.
77 KingAir200 : The third one in on the list?
78 FlyASAGuy2005 : That is the general understanding. True, but just as in this industry, you are subject to being screwed. Take ASA for example. I met a lot of guys th
79 FlyASAGuy2005 : I have a feq questions of my own out of pure curiosity. I am not a pilot nore do I understand much of what you all are saying and I appreciate the amo
80 NomadicNonrev : DL has pilot bases in ATL, CVG, LAX, NYC, SLC Per the NW Website, NW has pilot bases in ANC, DTW, HNL, MEM, and MSP.
81 Stratosphere : Well NW MX is virtually non existant. They have very few of their own mechanics anymore if you can call them mechanics. They farm out their maintanan
82 KingAir200 : ANC: 742 DTW: 744, 330, 757, 320, DC-9 MSP: 742, 330, 757, 320, DC-9 MEM: 320, DC-9 SEA: 330 No HNL base anymore.[Edited 2008-12-07 20:13:26]
83 Nwaesc : There are no 4 /10 hours shift lines on the ramp at NW. There are a few cities where the agents have them, but that's it.
84 NomadicNonrev : Sorry about that. Looks like NW needs to update their website.
85 Burnsie28 : Lets just call it an acquerger, because Delta management has repeatedly spoke publically calling it a "merger" and on paper its an "aquisition" I wou
86 Stratosphere : Chris...I have a family too...You will just never understand. But you know my position and I know yours..nuff said.
87 Nwab787techops : HI Stratosphere! "If you can call them mechanics." NICE!!! I think you miss the old NWA. Anyways, FlyASAGuy2005 we have Delta guys in training for th
88 Stratosphere : Ahh nice to see you waiting in the wings...Yeah I miss my friends and my seniority (1988) and my 5 weeks vacation. But I don't miss the instability.
89 NWAESC : Lots of people miss the "old NWA."
90 Like2flyguy : I don't know why it is so hard to understand what type of transaction this was. On BOTH paper and in principle, this is a MERGER. An acquisition occu
91 MD88Captain : I'd say all the speculation will be over in a few hours. Let the weeping and gnashing begin in earnest.
92 Floridaflyboy : On this note, it is my understanding that ALPA does not allow stapling under any circumstances in any merger between two ALPA groups, so that option
93 NomadicNonrev : And you are basing your OPINION on what... You can easily prove the "most money" argument, but is that all that leads to your opinion that NW had a h
94 Floridaflyboy : I'd have to say neither one of them was going anywhere. They were both sitting in pretty good.
95 Transpac787 : And even if it were allowed, it would be totally and completely out of the question. Stapling the list under would create a strike in light-speed tim
96 AirNZ : No, not necessarily true at all and certainly not a definitive statement by any means. Anything can be purchased with an exchangable medium other tha
97 Dispatchguy : Even if ALPA merger policy was silent on the issue, there was a new federal law passed within the past few years which would make a staple job illega
98 Floridaflyboy : I'm well aware of that, thank you. I was simply referring to the ALPA policy on it as it would apply even if there weren't a law on it. However you'r
99 Gigneil : Except that you're wrong. Please point it out. I would like to see specific examples. NS
100 Post contains links Alitalia744 : Here ya go bud.... http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=11176
101 Mayor : We tried working out shifts like this at DL cargo in SLC, but with a 24/7 operation, we just couldn't work the days out with the manning needed. BTW,
102 Revelation : It comes from the same source as the fascination here on a.net with the first NW 747 being painted in DL colors. It's all about who's perceived to be
103 M404 : For my two cents on whose name was carried through, Delta's or Northwest"s, I'm sure that since NW was for more heavily unionized they figured they wo
104 FlyASAGuy2005 : Thanks for the info! How so? (just curious) Well it depends on how you look at things. NW's brand in Europe and Asia is very valuable. No, they don't
105 Gsosbee : Nope. Delta acquired NWA lock, stock and barrel. Delta the surviving entity is the same entity as before the acquisition. NWA is a subsidiary of Delt
106 AirNZ : Cheers Alitalia744........you got to it before I got back from lunch! It's certainly been stated for a while Yep, absolutely. I don't know anything a
107 Transpac787 : Not really, actually. The DL pilots group has a *lot* more to lose than the NW pilots do. NW is fighting to keep their current positions. DL is fight
108 Post contains links Like2flyguy : I agree. Both Delta and Northwest were sitting in the best financial shape of the legacy carriers. This is incorrect. The CEO's of both airlines have
109 Burnsie28 : Thats highly debatable, in the midwest DL is almost non-existant, NW in the west still serves a lot of the bigger cities and some of the smaller ones
110 Transpac787 : Instead of SEA-PEK, the A332's will run SLC-NRT. Instead of DTW-KIX-TPE (the most hated 744 trip in the company) they will now run ATL-NRT, a trip wh
111 Burnsie28 : True, but nothing has been announced yet, so until then they will just sit or operate additional LAX legs or something. yeah, it was more of a joke r
112 SPREE34 : I bet they aren't losing anything, just flying between different spots than last month. A lot of what "was" is going to change since there is now 4 m
113 Burnsie28 : Its not showing up anywhere right now in their bid schedules. I'm well aware of that but as of now, they are not.
114 Ocracoke : Not this all over again...... DL non-existant in the midwest? Ya know, aviation history does not start the day you were born. Or the day you gratuate
115 WorldTraveler : I certainly do understand the concept and know what DL obtained in order to slow retraining. But I'm speaking to those who think that any merged DL o
116 Burnsie28 : Like everyone else, I was talking in recent history... quick looks at the route map will show what i mean. Read what I said again, I said NW serves a
117 Mayor : Like I've said before, this might not have been the best time for this merger/acquisition but it might have been the only time. With a new administra
118 Ocracoke : Yes, I know. I read the previous comment about NW's huge European operation out of BOS. All, what? five or six routes? Totally huge. Perhaps you miss
119 DeltaL1011man : that will be the only 753 the route that would go (if they might keep it). The 763 holds a little bit more PAX...........much easier to make a better
120 Burnsie28 : Ok, I'll add in the middle-large size cities here now (as defined 25,000+) Duluth, MN St. Cloud, MN Brainerd/Baxter, MN Grand Forks, ND Fargo, ND Bis
121 Gigneil : LAX-HNL is not a low yield market. Its a high yield market. NS
122 Cubsrule : I know that there are (by necessity) some 75A trips that run something like DTW-AMS-EWR-AMS-DTW... will the ATL-NRT trips be scheduled similarly (i.e
123 Burnsie28 : No, MSP doesn't have a 744 pilots base so very few trips start out of there. here are 3 example trips i found DTW-NRT-HKG-NRT-MSP-NRT-LAX-NRT-MSP-DTW
124 Bobnwa : Burnsie, the NWA European operation before the NW/KL deal was hardly what anyone would call large by any measurement. NW was just a small player in t
125 Transpac787 : Yes. All NW international crews are routed like, 75A, A330, 747-400. It is VERY rare to see 3-day trips on the 744, most of them being NGO turns. The
126 XFSUgimpLB41X : Just remember, DOH is no longer part of ALPA merger policy.... I believe the most recent DOH merger was NWA/Republic. We all know how well that bonded
127 NWAESC : Ick. I nominate this as the worst term ever. Surely, there's a better way to differentiate all of us? And, yes, I would find "NW-classic" equally fou
128 KingAir200 : True that. I think I like N.E.R.D better.
129 Jetjack74 : For those of you that don't know, it's an acronym for Never Ever Real Delta. We went from one dubious ghetto association(NWA) to another (N.E.R.D.).
130 AirNZ : Yes indeed and, while I'm certainly not questioning that at all, I think you might have misunderstood and perhaps my wording was partly at fault. My
131 Luckyone : Nevermind that Delta has been the largest US carrier across the Atlantic since the mid-ninties, and carries far more passengers than NW ever did barri
132 Ocracoke : So everything with population over 25,000 is now a middle-large city? Really? So Bowling Green KY, Blacksburg VA, Manhattan KS, and Twin Falls ID are
133 MD88Captain : 9:14pm EST and no word on the list. I wonder if it will be realeased before midnight?
134 Transpac787 : The list has been "released" to the respective merger committees. I don't know about the DL side, but the NW committee says they want "a few days to
135 Burnsie28 : It will likely be a couple days, the unions will look over the ruling before its released. No, I said Delta said that, non-existant to me is compared
136 DeltaL1011man : I'm sure DL is in markets that NW is almost non-existant. Thats the whole point of this merger. close but it starts at DTW (the only 744 base) and ma
137 FlyASAGuy2005 : I can agree with you there. It always made me sick when people would say "Well, NW as TransPac/Asia". Hell, I guess TATL and Europe doesn't count for
138 Transpac787 : See reply 134. It's what was done during the NW/RC merger too. The Roberts Award wasn't made public for quite awhile. So, it can still go either way
139 Burnsie28 : Wrong, some trips do start out of MSP, with the crew deadheading DTW-MSP if need be. It is always like that, they want to make sure everything is leg
140 Transpac787 : Only on Saturdays.... The crew's trip will terminate in MSP if the flew the 2nd NRT-MSP, NW14. Or, it will begin in MSP if they are doing NW3. *sigh*
141 Mayor : The WA people always called us Deltoids or Widgets. I'm fine with that.
142 KingAir200 : A little bit different than Never Ever Real Delta, wouldn't you say? The whole N.E.R.D. bit just screams "we're better than you."
143 Mayor : Depends on who came up with it, I imagine. If it was DL people, shame on them. If it was NW people, what do you expect?
144 KingAir200 : It wasn't us, I can assure you of that.
145 Mayor : Then, if it was DL people, I am truly ashamed. Trouble is, alot of the younger DL employees probably don't even know that the person that's working w
146 NomadicNonrev : SLI is out ratio and category basis with pull and plug...
147 Transpac787 : Fences on 744, 777, and 787. Not sure about any narrowbody types, yet.
148 NomadicNonrev : Correct, the fences are only on those aircraft. They are 5 year fences beginning with single operating certificate. 247 NW pilots were used in the "p
149 Okie73 : I told you. Basically a relative list with some adjustment for NWA retirements.
150 Transpac787 : Though the ratio is not even CLOSE to what DL pilots were hoping for. It turned out to be somewhat like a 1 to 1 integration. DL #1 remains as #1, NW
151 NomadicNonrev : I assume "you" is the plural form of the word...I never believed DOH would be the method used for integration.
152 NomadicNonrev : For clarification... The first 3,045 pilots were merged 1.80/1 (DL/NW) next 2,433 were merged 1.17/1 next 3,932 were merged 1.90/1 the last 2,271 wer
153 Transpac787 : What?? Not bad, considering DL was hoping for 4:1
154 NomadicNonrev : Can you cite this in the transcripts of the hearings? Not sure what you want to know...this is the pull and plug method discussed. Accounts for the m
155 USAFDO : NomadicNonrev .... where did you get this detailed information? Please include the office source so all can see it.
156 Transpac787 : Official: Fences on all 747-400's, no DL pilots may bid or be displaced to them for 5 years. Fences on 16x 772ER/772LR, no NW pilots may bid or be dis
157 USAFDO : Please include the web like that shows this office information with these percentages, quantity of acft, etc.. What is the official source where you a
158 Transpac787 : NWALPA. Unless you have a login, you can't see it.
159 USAFDO : Please cut and past the official information into the web so all members here can view it.
160 NomadicNonrev : You can also read other public forums. In addition to this forum, I also check out airlinepilotforums.com from time to time.[Edited 2008-12-08 22:02:
161 Transpac787 : The joint seniority list is a PDF file. And what do you want cut/pasted?? There are several hundred pages of stuff.....
162 WorldTraveler : how many NW pilots are in the 744 category now? the ratios might not be as high as some at DL wanted but when you consider the fences there probably
163 Transpac787 : 141 line-holding Captains 44 reserve Captains 226 line-holding First Officers 46 reserve First Officers Yes. Overall NW "lost", but with regard to wi
164 NorthstarBoy : Interesting, sounds like the DL pilots, in terms of ascention, pretty much screwed the pooch, assuming DL orders 77Ws in the next 5 years the DL guys
165 WorldTraveler : If the NW pilots are protected on their equipment, it shouldn't matter to the DL pilots whether DL orders the planes or not. Transpac, good info... th
166 Transpac787 : If they are ordered to supplement the fleet, then they are open-biding (from what I understand so far) However, if they are ordered as a direct repla
167 Panamair : I don't have a dog in this fight (and I don't think DL management has either), but the DL pilots are not necessarily screwed since the A330s are not
168 Transpac787 : I don't know what the staffing requirements for the 787 fleet will be or are planned to be. All depends on how many bases they open, number of routes
169 Panamair : Thanks for the clarification on other points, but wouldn't replacement be a little difficult to enforce or define? What happens if more 77Ls are orde
170 Airtechy : With all the "can't fly" and "must fly" rules, it must take a supercomputer to schedule pilots every month.....especially with the changing route stru
171 NWAESC : If that's the mentality some of these dopes have, I won't much mind being "never ever real Delta." I have no desire to be associated with a junior hi
172 XFSUgimpLB41X : NWAESC- You'll never heard the never ever real delta thing except from some idiot. If you choose to have an attitude, then so be it. It's a great comp
173 Revelation : My fault for introducing it into this thread, and no, I don't have a dog in the hunt. I was working with another company that was acquired by another
174 NomadicNonrev : NWAESC, Here's my take on the "pull and plug" method used in the integration. Pre-merger, NW pilots soon expected to realize some upward movement on
175 FlyASAGuy2005 : We'll see when it's made public. That was what I figured it would be. All in all, I suspect we will have people griping from both groups for one reas
176 Bennett123 : IMO, the fun will start 5 mins after publication. Some people will have to take a cut if the deal is to go through. At the moment it is better to less
177 Bobnwa : All the pilots (DL=NW) were given a raise by Delta before the arbitration, so I doubt any cut in pay will result for anyone. The average pay for all
178 Reltney : As a Delta pilot I moved up 1%. The results were pretty fair and I know more will come out in the wash but the Delta pilots were treated well. They we
179 Mayor : Just in time for the first deliveries. BTW, I'm not trying to start a war or anything. It's just that the first time I see N.E.R.D. or hear of it, it
180 MD88Captain : All in all, it was just about what was expected. I find it a very balanced award with very little "windfall" for anyone - at least at first glance. Ne
181 Gsosbee : Thank you for a voice of reason. If everyone ends up with a job and an equal chance at advancement over time, everyone wins.
182 Burnsie28 : Indeed So that pilot essentually lost what 6 years or so in seniority. Seems to me that NW pilots ended up paying the price because DL's older pilots
183 Mayor : Well, first off, what I said was a JOKE. Secondly, seeing as how DL is negotiating with Boeing to delay or cut some of the early deliveries, already,
184 Burnsie28 : Supposidly yes, however, ask any pilot if that is a fair trade and they will tell you no, reason being is that the 787 if it works like its supposed
185 Gsosbee : Ask an ex-B'Cal pilot about this. His view might be different.
186 Transpac787 : I don't know who that is, but at this point is totally and completely irrelevant. There is to be NO bumping whatsoever. There will be movement as ope
187 XFSUgimpLB41X : I moved up .3% in the merger...virtually the same. The arbiters really tried to take into account both sides. If you wanted what your side wanted and
188 Gsosbee : When BA took over B'Cal, the B'Cal DC-10 Captains were thrown off the airplanes and upgraded BA widebody FO's took all of the left seats. A friend of
189 MD88Captain : I've hearing and seeing (informally and unscientifically) that there is a general consenus of relief and acceptance throughout both sides of the SLI.
190 777STL : Cute quote. I actually found the website you plagiarized that from. Of course they're going to tell the rank and file that this is a "merger". The si
191 Airtechy : Speaking as a longtime Delta passenger, it makes me very happy to hear that pilots directly affected by this arbitration seem to agree that it is reas
192 FlyASAGuy2005 : There's another thread going at the moment which I think will get pretty hot about Delta "second guessing" their 787 order. Basically, their saying a
193 Okie73 : are you kidding me? Most Delta pilots ended up withing a percentage point of where they would have been on the DALPA proposal. None ended up more tha
194 MD88Captain : DAL has been saying for a year that they (DAL management) prefer the longer range model rather than the 787-800. As for deferals because they do not h
195 Post contains images NWAESC : Then I seem to run into a lot of idiots... Seriously, I hope you're right, but so far, you're not. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person on this site t
196 MD88Captain : TransPac. The reality of the new SLI list puts DAL guys within usually 100 pilots of where they were before the integration on a percentage basis. A p
197 Transpac787 : The more a lot of us look at the new list, it actually seems quite fair. No DL pilot is more than 2 percentage points away from where they were origi
198 Okie73 : I would say only the 787s really matter. I mean, your guys are in the 744s and 742s today, so its not like a DL pilot could bid it, as there is no bu
199 MD88Captain : Okie73, It is a bit murky on 787 replacement airframes, but I know DAL already had a total of 34 (?) orders and options in place on the 777. I underst
200 Flighty : Considering their wonderful 767 fleets, their A330s and 777s, all of which are rock solid for 10-15 years at least, I do not see why Delta would need
201 FlyASAGuy2005 : Never really looked at it that way. I mean, everyone ha been looking at the 787 as the "God of the skies". But your right, the T7 can do the job just
202 WorldTraveler : everyone wants to move DL forward... NW/RC was a disaster as well. DL and NW mgmt was committed to a successful integration and I believe each of the
203 Jetjack74 : There is also tighter credit issues. Since DL/NW bankruptcies, i'm willing to bet that mgmt is looking at being smarter with their money and saving m
204 WorldTraveler : yes, you are right. DL and NW both realize they can't harm the company financially - and remember that NW's board is joining the DL board in part. NW
205 Surfdog75 : But it was. NERDs came from a Northwest pilot on another web board. He posed his own question about what to call the Northwest employees since origin
206 Revelation : I see that point, but I also see the point that says those planes were NWs to lose, and if they did lose them, it'd be pretty unfair. If I recall cor
207 Bellerophon : Gsosbee ...When BA took over B'Cal the B'Cal DC-10 Captains were thrown off the airplanes... Rubbish. ...upgraded BA widebody FO's took all of the lef
208 DeltaL1011man : Ok question. So if DL orders 20 77Ws. The first 16 go to the ex 744 pilots and the other 4 are open bid right? Now my question is this. If DL does sa
209 PGNCS : And they would do this...why? I know a lot of Delta 777 pilots and none have them have said this, nor have I heard this point even mentioned by any D
210 Transpac787 : If they are used as fleet supplements, 100% open-bidding. If they are used to replace 744's on a 1:1 basis, 100% of the seats go to NW crews. No fenc
211 Burnsie28 : Somewhat like NW 89 hires are now junior to DL 92 hires.
212 Bobnwa : If that is the way it worked out, then so be it. How about the 200+ NW pilots at the top. Again, I ask if this is you talking or Dad? Burnsie, lighte
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