Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Delta 777 Loses #2 Engine Power In Flight  
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5638 posts, RR: 11
Posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 24892 times:

According to Flight Global:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...w-like-trent-800-engine-issue.html

The aircraft was enroute PVG-ATL at FL390, and experienced an "uncommanded power rollback." The NTSB is comparing it to the BA Heathrow incident, and looking for similarities.

I hope this isn't a duplicate topic; I did a search, but I'm usually late to the table with interesting stories!

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN83SF From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 24867 times:

I'm surprised the media wasn't all over this event given that the NTSB is investigating similarities to the BA event at LHR


N83SF
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3800 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 24826 times:

Didn't the BA flight originate in PVG as well?


Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 24760 times:



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 2):
Didn't the BA flight originate in PVG as well?

Nope, it originated in PEK.


User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 24751 times:

Only similarity so far is RR engines.

User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 24604 times:



Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 4):
Only similarity so far is RR engines.

And the departure point was in China.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17003 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 24573 times:



Quoting MattRB (Reply 5):
Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 4):
Only similarity so far is RR engines.

And the departure point was in China.

True. Maybe it is the routing the carriers chose when the fly from China to Europe/USA. Maybe the BA and DL flights had similar routing??



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 24488 times:

the article didn't say how far into the flight this occurred but did say that the flight continued to ATL after the engine responded to procedures to restore normal power. So if it was the same issue, DL learned from the BA incident.

User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 24396 times:

Well, this apparently occurred during cruise, which helps the situation out much more than the point at which the BA incident occurred, and only involved one engine. Both flights were on polar routings and occurred during Northern hemisphere winter, where temps up there are quite cold. NTSB will have to investigate, but don't start on the Rollers yet, it may very well be a Boeing problem.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 6):
True. Maybe it is the routing the carriers chose when the fly from China to Europe/USA. Maybe the BA and DL flights had similar routing??

Well, opposite directions, but both very far northern tracks. I'd say the DL aircraft involved was much more likely to be a bit further north than the BA plane, due to the fact that PVG-ATL is quite a bit more distance, but then again, depending on the winds, it could have been anywhere.

UAL


User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 24119 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Well, the article does go out of the way to state that flight manual procedures were drafted to specifically deal with this type of situation, the procedures were followed, and the problem rectified itself.

Sounds like a worrying situation and some kudos to the DL crew for their handling of it.

Thankfully it occurred at cruise, and not on short final over what's left of the Ford plant.

- litz


User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1781 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 24006 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Thread starter):
The aircraft was enroute PVG-ATL at FL390

Well, if the plane was starting out of PVG and going all the way to ATL, then its initial altitude would probably have been 300-350 range thinking that the aircraft was fully loaded with fuel. Then it probably climbed to 390 after entering US airspace when it burned a lot of fuel!!!!

This got me thinking, when did the BA flight report problems with its engines? Was this after it had entered British Airspace or before? Because if it happened this late on during the flight, then I can't understand what the connection between China and the engine failures were unless something accumulated later on into the flight.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3197 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 23963 times:

Guys if this was from PVG, wouldn't it be a GE90 powered aircraft, not a roller bird?

User currently offlineKochamLOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 23946 times:

Perhaps there was lead in the fuel?

User currently offlineAirtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 23822 times:

Maybe the Chinese decided to boost the fuel with that stuff they put in the milk!

Jim


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18684 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 23745 times:

Do we know where it was? 390 is pretty high, maybe towards the end of the trip?

User currently offlineBoeingdotcom From Singapore, joined Nov 2008, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 23649 times:

Similar it is, both aircraft takes off in China,

BA's from Beijing, China

DL's from Shanghai, China

Could it be the cold weather or the Co2 gas?



Never forget to be yourself.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 23563 times:

HOORAY! I ACTUALLY HAD NEW NEWS!!!

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 12):
Guys if this was from PVG, wouldn't it be a GE90 powered aircraft, not a roller bird?

Delta doesn't have any GE powered 777-232ER's, all Rollers.
They've got GE's on the -LR's, certainly, but not the ER's.

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 11):
This got me thinking, when did the BA flight report problems with its engines?

BA never got a chance to report engine trouble. They simply added power on short final, lost both engines, and hit.

Quoting Litz (Reply 10):
Sounds like a worrying situation and some kudos to the DL crew for their handling of it.

I'm inclined to agree- props to the crew. As a mechanic, I'm usually quick to judge the crew for errors... but it's certainly not always the case. There are flight crews out there that have done amazing things, and saved lives by doing so. United 232 comes to mind!


Anyhow, as far as I am concerned, there are three facts linking these two incidents, and they are all worth investigating:
-Rolls Royce Trent 800 engines
-Extreme north routes
-Departures from China

Time will (hopefully) tell.


User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 23518 times:

I remember that an AA 777 a while back doing MIA-LAX that had a similar problem. Maybe China is just a coincidence?

User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 23400 times:



Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 18):
I remember that an AA 777 a while back doing MIA-LAX that had a similar problem. Maybe China is just a coincidence?

It CERTAINLY could be a coincidence. But I don't remember this AA incident... can you refresh my memory?


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 23315 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 17):
-Departures from China

Why would that be worth investigating?


User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 23295 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-fails-to-respond-to-throttle.html

I'm not 100% sure how credible the info in the article is but certainly it is interesting.


User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1540 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 23217 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 17):
Anyhow, as far as I am concerned, there are three facts linking these two incidents, and they are all worth investigating:
-Rolls Royce Trent 800 engines
-Extreme north routes
-Departures from China

And don't forget the plane.

Fred


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 22832 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 17):
Anyhow, as far as I am concerned, there are three facts linking these two incidents, and they are all worth investigating:
-Rolls Royce Trent 800 engines
-Extreme north routes
-Departures from China

I really think we are clutching at straws here.

Take the UA (N799UA) incident last week.

- Departure from Asia
- Arrival to USA
- Boeing 777

Those are 3 things in common with the DL incident. But they do nothing to suggest any pattern to any other incident, just how your 3 things in common do not really do anything to link to the BA incident.


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21433 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 19):
Why would that be worth investigating?

Calm down, I didn't blame China for anything. But if the two airports use a common fuel supplier, and that supply has a freeze point that isn't up to snuff in a batch or two, it would show up on the coldest routes.
Just pointing out the similarities.

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 20):
I'm not 100% sure how credible the info in the article is but certainly it is interesting.

That's interesting... ALSO a Rolls powered aircraft.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 21):
And don't forget the plane.

True, but we haven't any reports of a 777 with GE or Pratt engines failing to respond, so I didn't include it in the list.

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 22):
Take the UA (N799UA) incident last week.

You got a source? I didn't see a thread in the past week on it, and haven't read anything from FlightGlobal or the NTSB...


I have my own theory as to what is causing this, but as a person involved in the industry, I think the most responsible thing to do is to keep my opinion to myself!


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21380 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 23):
You got a source?

Found one, just for you:

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4112e0c1&opt=0


25 Pnh2atl : The problem seems to be in the fuel lines of the RR engines. The placement of the fuel/oil heat exchanger, fuel filter and return fuel lines are at is
26 Rwy04LGA : Just did ATL-ICN-ATL and the lowest OAT I saw was -84 F at FL 330.
27 BrightCedars : I wouldn't say it that way and I do not endorse your statement, yet indeed fuel - if the supplier and/or refinery in cause is the same, could be link
28 AA737-823 : That's quite chilly, considering that the wintertime freeze point of fuel pumped at my airport is -45. Thanks for all the good info! " target=_blank>
29 Jetfuel : Sounds to me like the Rolls-Royce Trent 800 powerplant 777's should be grounded
30 ManchesterMAN : Yeh, I actually stepped off an AA 777 yesterday and I now feel very lucky to be alive
31 FlyDreamliner : Nope, it's an RR Trent. It seems like this is a RR Trent / 777 issue and probably should be looked at thoroughly - just like the rash of GE90 powered
32 Ktachiya : Well the only two companies that have the PW4000 series are JL and NH isn't it?
33 Rheinwaldner : Who is we? An airline? Boeing? Rolls Royce?
34 FlyDreamliner : Nope, just off the top of my head: JL NH KE OZ UA AI all use the PW4000 on their 777s.
35 Keny156 : negative, UA, Vietnam, Korean and there is a few more.
36 CPDC10-30 : Nope, UA, AI and KE are others. May be a few other small operators.
37 Ikramerica : It's very likely a combination of things that may include the quality of fuel in China (a country known for widespread systematic contamination of pro
38 Trex8 : IIRC in the final BA incident report the fuel remaining in the tanks was within specs as were other batches from the same supplier.
39 1stclass : Have you read newspaper lately? Which product from China is not contaminated?
40 AirNZ : No, maybe not, but while cluctching at very general similarities as 'co-incidence' why not include the fact of it being a similar aircaft as well....
41 DiscoverCSG : On a purely gut level, I doubt this has much to do with the BA incident - short final vs. cruise, one engine out vs. two, BA vs. DL, and so on.
42 747fan : The aircraft in question was N862DA. As Pnh2atl stated, I believe this incident was related to ice crystals building in the fuel line and therefore cl
43 Dano1977 : And since the BA incident to this DL event, do you know how many other IFSD's there have been on Trent powered 777's or how many hours trouble free o
44 Plairbus : Is it possible that the in china they also sell "real" fuel?? Perhaps it say for example BP or Shell but it is not.
45 AntonovA330 : Sorry to interrupt your discussion but "Initial data indicates that following the rollback, the crew descended to FL310 (approximately 31,000ft)" FL31
46 Ual747 : I honestly don't think it is a Chinese fuel problem, otherwise we would have more widespread incidents such as these, unless they are somehow targetin
47 SuseJ772 : FL310 and 31,000 ft are not exactly the same. Since above 18,000, the altimeter is set to 29.92 (or is it 29.91) regardless of the actual barometric
48 413X3 : It would be exactly 31,000 feet only if there was standard air pressure outside, which quite often there is not. No difference in quality than any ot
49 Pnh2atl : We is DL, and we have GE on the LRs and RR on the ERs. A 777 out of PVG headed to ATL could not maintain FL310 on a single engine. Depending on weigh
50 Hiflyer : Just as a fyi I have several friends who are senior 777 left seaters at AA....and they are watching this quite closely over there per them.
51 Litz : Remember ... this was NOT an inflight shutdown. This was a reduction in performance/thrust, followed by a reduction in altitude, followed by a resumpt
52 Pnh2atl : It also doesn't count as a shut down for ETOPS.
53 Flighty : Both flights were in winter, as well. Dead polar winter, IIRC.
54 Flighty : Of course, you know they tested the fuel in the BA aircraft's belly, and it was just fine in every way. I shared this suspicion strongly. But it wasn
55 Flyingjane : To the above commenter, why are you so quick to point fingers at the Chinese? The fuel supplier in China was absolved of any responsibility on the BA
56 B747forever : True, that is what I mean, both were flying quite far up north, and during ice cold weather.
57 QANTAS077 : have to be well into the flight if it occurred at FL390.
58 Ruscoe : Can someone tell me, what is the difference in OAT at the poles and the equator at FL390? Thanks Ruscoe
59 JetJeanes : -84 is quite chilly it Seems. But im not going to say yay or nay but my guess is china could be adding something to the fuel, Water,Something with a l
60 B747forever : But how come just two out of thousands of flights has been affected by this??
61 KELPkid : If it doesn't, it should. ETOPS is all about statistics of operational reliability, and in my mind, an engine that "rolls back" to flight idle in cru
62 KELPkid : FL310=31,000 feet under "standard" conditions (standard temperature, standard pressure, standard dry atmospheric adiabatic lapse rate, etc). When you
63 DocLightning : Can't eliminate a connection there without eliminating a connection there. Could there something wrong with the fuel they're using in China? Some mai
64 Baroque : Indeed what is the difference? Also what would the difference be at FL390 in the polar winter and the polar summer.
65 Post contains images DingDong : No worries - it's 1013.8 millibars. [Edited 2008-12-10 21:19:07]
66 AirNZ : If I may ask, upon what exactly are you basing this 'guess' on, and on what justification? Yes, you could reply "it's just a guess", but as I said, b
67 WILCO737 : 1013.25 actually. 29.92 times 33.865 WILCO737 (MD11F)
68 Flighty : Much more likely, the China flights happen to have the coldest routing, which is making RR 777s freeze their electronic brains and/or fuel delivery s
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Ever Experience An Engine Failure In Flight? posted Wed Dec 31 2003 16:37:22 by Thrust
777 Cargo Door Detatches In-flight (Brit. Airways) posted Thu Jun 26 2003 17:06:06 by Eg777er
QF 767 Loses Gear Doors In Flight posted Wed Nov 21 2001 07:06:59 by Rmm
UA 757 Loses Engine, Lands In CLE posted Fri Oct 6 2000 02:05:17 by Redngold
Delta 777-200LR In Flight Pics (High Quality) posted Sun Apr 6 2008 18:40:56 by MSYtristar
Delta 777-200 Power Ports In Coach posted Tue Jun 7 2005 18:24:59 by Greyson
Delta In-flight Internet posted Fri Oct 31 2008 19:02:44 by DAL763ER
NW In-flight To Get Delta Service posted Wed Oct 29 2008 12:16:47 by Alitalia744
News: USAir 757 Loses Part Of Wing In Flight posted Sun Mar 23 2008 17:47:19 by Crewchief
Delta 777-200LR In TUS posted Sat Feb 9 2008 23:00:43 by Skyweasy82