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Air France Deal With AZ Close -paper  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6235 times:

Several papers in Italy are reporting that an announcement regarding a deal between Air France and Alitalia is imminent.
AF could pay 250 M € for a 20 % stake in CAI and obtain two seats in the board. Jean Cyril Spinetta is meeting with CAI today to faltten out latest details.
Lufthansa has no immediate intentions to enter CAI after their decision to create LH Italia.

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nach...-details-on-alitalia-paper-020.htm


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOta1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6184 times:
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Actually I'm rather happy seeing LH not getting into that AZ mess. I think LH is way better off with LH Italia. It will take some time to grow it but in the end it will be the better solution for LH.

Not investing in AZ will also save LH some money for other acquisitions. SK, TP, LO come to my mind here... maybe even VS or depending how things turn out IB might even be on the horizon again at some point.

[Edited 2008-12-10 02:05:15]

User currently offlineCF105Arrow From Canada, joined Oct 2007, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6128 times:



Quoting Ota1 (Reply 1):
Actually I'm rather happy seeing LH not getting into that AZ mess. I think LH is way better off with LH Italia. It will some time to grow it but in the end it will be the better solution for LH.

Not investing in AZ will also save LH some money for other acquisitions. SK, TP, LO come to my mind here... maybe even VS or depending how things turn out IB might even be on the horizon again at some point.

I have to agree, LH is very lucky to be out of the picture.


User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6034 times:

I think AZ and Af are natural partners...
But LH will be pisst off with Air one going to AZ and it s presence in Italy declining in the short term....if they are serious about LH Italia then can compete with AF in Europe...
but this is a major prize for AF after months of LH buying everything and anything in Europe...well anything major that is City jet and VLM are tiny,....


User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5986 times:



Quoting WAC (Reply 3):
I think AZ and Af are natural partners...

This is true, as routes, codeshares, etc can all compliment one another. But I think AF is tossing its money away. Why support AZ until they show SERIOUS intention to reform?

Quoting Ota1 (Reply 1):
I think LH is way better off with LH Italia. It will take some time to grow it but in the end it will be the better solution for LH.

I agree. I think LH will be much better off simply starting with a clean slate. If LH is wise, they'd buy up AirOne and simply merge them into the operation.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5863 times:



Quoting Davescj (Reply 4):
Why support AZ until they show SERIOUS intention to reform?

grounding 60-80 aircraft and re-negioting all staff contract is serious enough-no??
in fact cai's plan see more job cuts and aircraft being grounded than AF plans in Easter when they were going to take over...so that s why they throwing money at AZ...aslo a bit worried about LH deals in the last 6 months...


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4971 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5753 times:

Im really confused. CAI's money is coming from elite business men from the North of Italy. Berlusconi has assembled this group (even bribed this group), and we all know how proud northern Italians are, and how they are disgruntled about the transfer of the hub from FCO to MXP.


I'm wondering if AZ is going to be MXP or FCO based.


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

I am very happy with this development. AZ should stay in the Sky corner to allow a healthy competitive playing field between the 3 big guys BA, AF, LH.
AZ going to LH would have seriously altered the balance of power in European aviation to the worse.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the Italian market. What is the future for AirOne? Will they be re-branded and become part of AZ?
LH would have a problem in this instance. They would need to built up some kind of domestic Italian presence very fast. On the plus side for LH is that AirOne currently uses M&M as their ff-scheme. That means that the new AZ&AirOne would have to start without all these frequent flyers. But how long would they wait before they shift their business to AZ when LH can't offer them anything domesticly?

Question over questions.....


User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5611 times:

Air One WILL be merged into the new Alitalia. It has been given permission fir all the competition authorities. This means if AZ stays in Skyteam and AF gets the 20% it will leave LH only with the small operations of Air Dolomiti and the future LH Italia

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 6):
I'm wondering if AZ is going to be MXP or FCO based.

With all probability the new AZ will have it's main hub in FCO and a secondary in MXP. MXP will be mostly long haul and a few European connections. FCO will be the main hub with long haul and substantial short haul. Linate will be reduced to minor part of the network.
The main change is that flight crews will be based BOTH at MXP and FCO, which will stop the totally ridiculous situation of flying flight crew from FCO to MXP....(I know this was partially done before but not fully).
The new AZ will have grounded most of MD80 by Spring 2009, thanks to the newish fleet of Air One, and some B767 (the oldest). the long haul fleet will mostly be B777 newish B767 and two A330s. Due to takeover of Air One and if the new airline keeps it s order, more A320s will be on the way, which will enable the airline to ground all B737 (AP) and old A320 family (AZ) and some have suggested the A320 could be replacement of some B767 for operations in the Mediterranean basin.
For long haul, there are several A330-200 on order (as well two A330s of AP in op already) and several A350s on order.
If management can do what or match the spellbounding transformations of FIAT gropu, Parmalat, Pirelli etc then AZ will be a good airline. But i think the brand is tarnished and can't be rescued. instead i would use the air one brand...even if AF gets the share....
But i have no doubt that either LH or AF get the 20% a few years down the line, either one will buy the whole operation over...regardless what Il Presidente (Berlusoni) says.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5374 times:

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nach...g-on-alitalia-constructive-020.htm

Deal could be announced before X-Mas certainly -if not already next week.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

It seems like we will soon see three European carriers, British Airways, Air France, and Lufthansa. They seem to be eating up just about every airline out there, which I guess is smart. Europe is pretty small to have a ton of airlines but it seems like having three majors will be a lot like in the US where there is almost too much competition between UA CO AA DL

User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5119 times:



Quoting Davescj (Reply 4):
But I think AF is tossing its money away. Why support AZ until they show SERIOUS intention to reform?

With two seats on the board, you had better believe AF will MAKE AZ get serious. I think Air France will use their new found power to force Alitalia into making sacrifices. It's do or die time for the Italian airline.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4633 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 11):
With two seats on the board, you had better believe AF will MAKE AZ get serious. I think Air France will use their new found power to force Alitalia into making sacrifices. It's do or die time for the Italian airline.

10 bucks nothing changes, I think the Unions are the problem and 2 seats on the board won't affect that much...


User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4423 times:

More than 5,000 workers fired, a total re-negotiation of the contracts, the grounding of many MD80s and the replacement with A320s, isn't this a revolution?

Italy has the same population of the UK, AF-KLM isn't interested in CAI (AZ+AP), it's interested in the Italian market.

If the partner is AF-KLM, LH will lose its partnership with AP, so it's normal they're launching LH Italia.


User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3280 times:

It's official: Mr. Toto, the owner of Air One (AP), has sold the company to CAI (AZ+AP).

Mr. Toto will set up a new company (AP Fleet) that will lease planes to CAI. AP Fleet will give to CAI the 26 A320s already in operation with AP and 57 A320s by 2012. 24 long-haul planes (12 A330s and 12 A350s) will be leased to CAI, too.


User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1892 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3237 times:



Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 14):
AP Fleet will give to CAI the 26 A320s already in operation with AP and 57 A320s by 2012. 24 long-haul planes (12 A330s and 12 A350s) will be leased to CAI, too.

Is this official? If so, when will we see those A320s painted in AZ livery, and are those A350s ordered already?

Thanks



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3203 times:



Quoting 797 (Reply 15):
Is this official?

Yes, it's official.

Italian only: http://www.ansa.it/opencms/export/si...visualizza_new.html_843698598.html

A small "summary" in English: http://www.reuters.com/article/mnaNe...sAndUtilities/idUSLB39444020081211

Quoting 797 (Reply 15):
when will we see those A320s painted in AZ livery

I don't know. Some rumours say that the integration between AZ and AP should take about 6 months, but they're only rumours, nothing of sure.

Quoting 797 (Reply 15):
are those A350s ordered already?

Yes, they're already ordered: 12 A330s (+ 8 options) and 12 A350s (+ 12 options).


User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1892 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3011 times:



Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 16):
Yes, it's official.

Grazie!

Really good news indeed. What surprises me is that even after the good results AirOne has been experiencing they will still sell themselves to CAI. They must be sure that things will go fine to do such a move. I recall reading an article in Panorama on AirOne in which Toto was interviewed. The whole article was on how good the airline was and how they could save AZ.

I wonder now, how's Toto's influence going to be on the new CAI? Is he simply going to be the owner of AP Fleet or is he going to be an insider in the new airline as well?

Quote:
Air One "apporta alla nuova compagnia di bandiera italiana la sua quota di mercato nazionale, che nel secondo semestre ha raggiunto circa il 50% (con circa 8 milioni di passeggeri trasportati nei primi undici mesi del 2008), e 58 aeromobili (26 A320, 2 A330, 20 B737 e 10 CRJ900)

Previously in the article they mention the network merger should begin in January. Are the long-haul planes (A330) going to be flying the AZ long routes as well?

I hope this is the right move. If the partner ends up being AF I believe AZ will become a much better airline. They have the market, all they need is a good hub (lets hope FCO gets better) and good planes with a good crew.

Thanks



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2894 times:



Quoting 797 (Reply 17):
how's Toto's influence going to be on the new CAI? Is he simply going to be the owner of AP Fleet or is he going to be an insider in the new airline as well?

He will put 60 millions of euro into CAI, he should have a stake of 6-7%.

Quoting 797 (Reply 17):
Are the long-haul planes (A330) going to be flying the AZ long routes as well?

Yes, from January the 2 A330s should fly to BOS and ORD from FCO.


User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2740 times:



Quoting United787 (Reply 12):
10 bucks nothing changes, I think the Unions are the problem and 2 seats on the board won't affect that much...

I am afraid this will be the case. I don't know that 2 board seats will be enough to force serious change.

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 14):
It's official: Mr. Toto, the owner of Air One (AP), has sold the company to CAI (AZ+AP).

This was a surprise, I didn't think it would go through. But, I think, the 2 companies could be quite good for each other.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1892 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

I just read in the local newspaper that CAI is going to use FCO as the main hub with its 13 intercontinental routes, whereas MXP will remain with the 3 long-haul routes that it currently has. The article also mentions that CAI will begin focusing on MXP once LIN becomes only a city airport.

January 12 it's the date CAI begins fully operational. I really hope the whole deal goes as planned.



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2356 times:



Quoting 797 (Reply 20):
LIN becomes only a city airport.

This might work for them for limited routes in/around Italy.

MXP with only 3 long hauls I do question. This is the biz capital, not Rome. While FCO isn't the worst airport in creation, why take a stop if you don't have to?

I do think FCO is an important long haul, but not the only long term.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
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