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Release Of Cockpit Recordings Outrages Pilots  
User currently offlineAVLNative From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 108 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15607 times:

I saw this and could not find any reference to it here

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/6157053.html

BRUSSELS, Belgium — International regulators must ban the public release of cockpit voice recordings from fatal accidents since their sole purpose is to assist accident investigators, the main international pilots federation said today....

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15579 times:

I believe the central part of the article is:

The association said in a statement it was "outraged to learn that once again the cockpit voice recordings of aircraft involved in a fatal accident have been leaked and are being used by a media provider for public entertainment."

I agree with this. Voice recording of a working place is precarious anyway. If it is used to learn from mistakes to save future lives, I guess there is some justification to it, but it should not be made public outside investigating circles.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7458 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15531 times:

IMO there is no public interest in hearing people scream as they get blown up.

I am not even sure that transcrips are needed, surely a summary would be sufficient.

As for the GOL B737 crash, I am glad that the negligance charges have been dismissed.


User currently offlineLegacytravel From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1067 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15232 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 2):
IMO there is no public interest in hearing people scream as they get blown up.

A little more tact could be used here. I understand what you are saying. There should never be public tapes of people screaming as they realize what is happening to them. They should be allowed to rest in piece and not be some tabloid fodder and entertainment at all.

RIP to all who have perished in aviation accidents.

Mark



I love the smell of Jet fuel in the Morning
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15168 times:

I'm almost 100% sure that in the US the NTSB can not release these taps by federal law. I've heard 'acted' recreations, but not the actual copy


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15168 times:

While I see what people are saying, these tapes do make great educational use for future aviation professionals, I don't think that anyone enjoys hearing what happens right before the crash, but allows many of us to understand what went wrong, where, and how we can possibly avoid those situations. Here in the US a lot of government stuff must be provided to the public and since these don't pose a threat to national security, then they are released.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineFighterPilot From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1373 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14911 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
I'm almost 100% sure that in the US the NTSB can not release these taps by federal law. I've heard 'acted' recreations, but not the actual copy

No there are sites out there like the one below which aren't re-enactments.

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/lastwords.htm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):
While I see what people are saying, these tapes do make great educational use for future aviation professionals, I don't think that anyone enjoys hearing what happens right before the crash, but allows many of us to understand what went wrong, where, and how we can possibly avoid those situations. Here in the US a lot of government stuff must be provided to the public and since these don't pose a threat to national security, then they are released.

I concur, as a private pilot currently working towards my commercial license the recordings can be a good learning tool. As Chris said the help us learn what went wrong and can give us an idea of the mindset the pilots are in.

Cal  airplane 



*Insert Sound Of GE90 Spooling Up Here*
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5105 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14776 times:

The transcripts are an excellent learning tool. The edits that the NTSB makes for sensitivity strike, I think, the right balance. I think that reenactments, like the one CO used to use in CRM training of Eastern 401 (the Everglades L1011 accident), can also be very helpful and compelling, particularly if real airline pilots do the reenactment, as was the case on the CO video reenactment.

The CVR tapes themselves often are difficult to hear and understand, and the process of making the transcripts in the US is a consensual one involving many parties to the investigation. The transcripts also contain analysis of sounds, and the description of the sounds imparts to the untrained listener/reader a lot more informationi than would be gleaned merely from hearing the tape. (On Eastern 401, for example, there's a sound similar to the autopilot disconnect warning, which the crew apparently ignored or mistook for something else because their attention was elsewhere. If you just heard the mild tone, you wouldn't know what it was, so the transcript dramatically improves the reader's understanding of what happened.)

I don't think anything is served by making them public, and it's against Federal regulations here, and that's why you virtually never hear tapes from US investigations being made public, unless they are somehow leaked, which rarely happens. However, different countries have different rules, laws, and ability to contain sensitive governmental information, and that's why tapes involved in accident investigations in other countries are sometimes released or otherwise make their way into the public domain.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8845 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14689 times:



Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 7):
don't think anything is served by making them public, and it's against Federal regulations here, and that's why you virtually never hear tapes from US investigations being made public, unless they are somehow leaked, which rarely happens. However, different countries have different rules, laws, and ability to contain sensitive governmental information, and that's why tapes involved in accident investigations in other countries are sometimes released or otherwise make their way into the public domain.

I can understand the investigators enduring the horror of listening to people dying, but for the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone normal would want to. The families of the victims?



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1792 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14646 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
The families of the victims?

Well that too, they want to know what exactly happened I think.

In Japan, releasing the tape actually rested public opinion about a JAL B747SR that lost steering power and crashed into a mountain side.

Before releasing the tape, they only released the transcripts which was very misleading and caused a lot of damage to JAL's reputation, as well as caused a lot of problems for the families of the PIC and the rest of the cockpit on that particular flight.

Also, releasing it to the public might be a bit misleading, but isn't it important for the employees of that particular airline to listen to the cockpit recording and know what exactly happened?

And as many other members here have stated, RIP for those who have lost their lives in aviation catastrophes



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineDingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14600 times:



Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 9):
Well that too, they want to know what exactly happened I think.

May I respectfully ask what did hearing the voices and sound add that the written word did not?

The written word should have had been sufficient; it transcribed the sounds and words. So what is different?

Or please allow me to explain differently:

What is the difference between the investigative board writing:

"She screamed in terror."

and directly hearing a woman on the recording scream in pain, knowing she is about to die?

One is voyeuristic, and the other is not. One of the two competiting goals has merit and true purpose that will benefit the living, while the other does not.

The investigative authorities has all the information they need to issue their final report and promote the safety of aviation. The general public does not need to satisfy their titatallating and morbid curiosity.



DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2266 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13582 times:



Quoting DingDong (Reply 10):
The written word should have had been sufficient; it transcribed the sounds and words. So what is different?

You can't get the sense or atmosphere inside the cockpit with the written word. I've listened to several recordings and am still amazed at the relative calm inside the cockpit and the utmost professionalism the pilots exhibited all the way to the end. As a pilot, those recordings are invaluable tools for learning... not just how to avoid what happened, but it gives you a true understanding of what it's like in the cockpit of a doomed airliner.

I agree it's a sensitive topic, and I'm not sure what the answer is.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineTrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13337 times:

I think this question is very delicate, and it would improve from a legal view. Are the investigations, at least when conclusions are reached, a public document? If so, can you omit parts of that document? Don't know about this, and it may have different approaches according to different regulations. My personal opinion is that this questions should be treated with the maximum transparency, and so release of this recordings could be important. Sadly there are people who find some kind of pleasure in this hearings...


Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1792 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12825 times:



Quoting DingDong (Reply 10):
May I respectfully ask what did hearing the voices and sound add that the written word did not?

Well from what I remember for that particular flight, the cockpit recordings had a script saying

どーんと行こうや which literally translates to 'lets keep pursuing' but in a very negative manner making one who read those scripts that the PIC was giving up already.

But in fact, he said those words to actually cheer up the FE, and the FO and had nothing to do with the controls of the plane. I remember that before the recordings were released, Japanese media criticized the PIC on that particular flight, overly admist the fact that he was trying to cheer up the cockpit crew even in a situation that was so deterimental, and tried to steer the plane desperately back to HND.

I know it is just one particular case that caused some outrage from the public, but today a majority of the Japanese public respect the PIC and the cockpit crew in that they absolutely did everything they can to try to get the plane controllable again.

Hope this clarifies a bit



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineOakmad From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10155 times:

I just listened to the vanity fair interview the article makes reference to, its available here:

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/01/air_crash200901

Personally I think does a good job of explaining what happened, why and although its scary to listen to in parts sheds the pilots in a good light. A terrible accident/incident and in some ways I can see how they need to make all the evidence public.


User currently offlineFlyLKU From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 800 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8759 times:



Quoting FighterPilot (Reply 6):
No there are sites out there like the one below which aren't re-enactments.

How do you know they are real?

I have also seen reenactments. Has anyone else attended the play "Charlie Victor Romeo"? The writers and actors did an excellent job of portraying what happened on the flight deck of several famous crashes. There was absolutely no sensationalization.

There were several other pilots in attendance when I went and the Cast and Director hung around afterward to answer questions. Very tastefully done and also educational.



...are we there yet?
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4995 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8698 times:

I listened to both CVR's, and was amazed. Amazed at how professional the GOL crew was until impact. Especially how one of the pilots kept saying "calm". They really tried to save the plane, and it helps me when hearing it for myself. I consider this privileged to hear.

I however agree that it should remain to the families to decide if it is something that should be released to the public. The families were the ones who lost their loved ones in this awful tragedy, and if one family member did not want it to go public, it should not have. I can totally appreciate anyone who is angered by the release of this. I would personally be so mixed with emotion, I would probably be against a CVR being released if my loved one was lost in a crash. It is so hard to put yourself in the shoes of someone in this situation, and I really feel for the families.

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 11):
've listened to several recordings and am still amazed at the relative calm inside the cockpit and the utmost professionalism the pilots exhibited all the way to the end. As a pilot, those recordings are invaluable tools for learning... not just how to avoid what happened, but it gives you a true understanding of what it's like in the cockpit of a doomed airliner.

I agree it's a sensitive topic, and I'm not sure what the answer is.

Well said, I think we have pretty much the same views regarding this. I too am amazed at how professional the GOL crew was. I honestly do not know how I would personally react to such a situation, but I can promise I would be spitting out a huge list of curse words in the last moment. Not one curse word from the GOL crew was heard. Bless those lost, and RIP to them.

Quoting Oakmad (Reply 14):
Personally I think does a good job of explaining what happened, why and although its scary to listen to in parts sheds the pilots in a good light. A terrible accident/incident and in some ways I can see how they need to make all the evidence public.

I think the article was well written too. I would have like to have seen more of the physical loss of this tragedy. More about the individuals lost, more of a tribute to those lost.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8113 times:



Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 11):
You can't get the sense or atmosphere inside the cockpit with the written word.

I would have to agree with that. Moreover, transparency in the investigation is sometimes served by releasing the recordings. Not every country has an independent investigative body such as the NTSB. For example, I, for one, became uncomfortable with the Brazilian Air Force investigating itself (ATC) in the Gol/Legacy midair, particularly after the release of the preliminary report.

Granted that in this case the NTSB could verify the transcripts of the Legacy CVR, but who would do it if the collision had occurred between two Brazilian registered aircraft with crews speaking Portuguese? It would be easier to alter the transcripts than the CVR (not to mention honestly transcribing something that is not there due to some bias). I doubt that this would have happened in this investigation, but there are a lot of countries with less credibility and transparency (e.g., Egyptair 990).

However,

Quoting DingDong (Reply 10):
One is voyeuristic, and the other is not.

I have to agree with you as well. The last 30s of Gol's CVR (after the collision) are extremely hard to listen to, even sickening, and I don't see any purpose that could be served by releasing that. It's possible, for instance, to discern in the recording different reactions to the emergency by the two pilots and I seriously doubt that there was any need for families to be aware of that.

So, perhaps

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 7):
The edits that the NTSB makes for sensitivity strike, I think, the right balance.

these edits should also be applied to any CVR recording release that is deemed necessary for a particular investigation or training purpose. I suspect that the crew dynamics that emerged in the Legacy's cockpit will be of interest to many aviation researchers, pilots, instructors, etc. in the years to come.



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8066 times:

It's frustrating that these things only seem to appear from the aviation industry. We never see videos released of what went wrong in the operating theatre for example, and if a pilot makes a mistake, then the press are quick to throw the "pilot error" phrase around, yet if a surgeon kills someone, it is never "Dr. Error", it's just accepted that death is a risk of having surgery.

 Sad



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3607 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7448 times:



Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 11):
I agree it's a sensitive topic, and I'm not sure what the answer is.

The answer is to have a complete and open investigation, which means releasing the tapes. I don't understand what the debate is on this. The pilots know they're being recorded and they know those tapes get released in the event of an accident. This is not some big surprise to them after the fact.

What's worse? Having the public constantly engaging in conspiracy theories that last forever about every single crash because they don't believe the final report? Or releasing all the evidence even if some of it might appeal to the prurient interests of a few?

It is no different than saying we should not be shown images of injured or dead soldiers during wartime because it offends the families. Not to be crass, but that's not really the issue. It's news and it affects all of us, and it is in the public interests that everybody has access to all sides of such a major public issue both so they can make their own informed decisions and so they have more reason to trust the conclusions of those trained to conduct investigations.

Hiding something makes it seem as if you have something to hide.

Re. transcripts - much of any CVR is open to interpretation. A transcript is not evidence.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6518 times:

The re-enactment along with the actual transcripts were on Nightline last night. I watched it with my GF.


Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6291 times:
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I'll have to say that I'm adamantly opposed to the release of the recordings.
Apart from pandering to the ghoulish interest of the public, there is absolutely nothing to be gained with their being made public. As an example, see some of the threads here on A.net about the recent accidents (CGH is probably the best example), and see how many posts relate to sensationalism, and very little to the technical aspects of these accidents.

What is the interest of having a dying man's last words as beig "mummy", "Sh@t" or a worse expletive?

Now we come to the usefulness of the CVR recording. Great investigative tool as far as it relates to the cockpit sounds and the crew procedures and that means that outside professional expertise, they don't mean a thing to the public, as obscure to them as a conference on quantum physics.

Quoting DingDong (Reply 10):
What is the difference between the investigative board writing:

"She screamed in terror."

and directly hearing a woman on the recording scream in pain, knowing she is about to die?

You'll never find the "...in terror bit". The transcript will say only "(Female screams...[/b]"

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 11):
As a pilot, those recordings are invaluable tools for learning... not just how to avoid what happened, but it gives you a true understanding of what it's like in the cockpit of a doomed airliner.

I beg to differ : You'll only know or understand it when you're faced with the same conditions.

As for the conpiracy theorists, May I pose that the first quality of any democracy is trust in its institutions ?...

[Edited 2008-12-11 13:04:32]


Contrail designer
User currently offlineSMF757 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6238 times:

I think they should release these tapes - at least after a specific period of time - say 10yrs or so.

They release 911 tapes without issue - sometimes listning to the person dying on the other end. Granted more people involved in a plane crash, but it's still... it's about privacy right?!?!

Transcripts are useful - but actully hearing what's happening could make for a larger impact of what happened.

IMO - Airlines should be able to use them as a valuable training tool.



Gotta love that 757
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6174 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting SMF757 (Reply 22):
IMO - Airlines should be able to use them as a valuable training tool.

And they do. During my training we worked with such tapes and discussed the accident. It doesn't feel good if you hear colleagues screaming yelling and a second later they are dead  Sad Or hearing the last words like: "I love you, honey!"

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 528 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6113 times:

I must say that, irrespective of the severity of the outcome, that the findings of a federal investigation- unless such findings are deemed classified for the sake of national security, should be accessible to the public.

Who is to say that something is inappropriate? Whether an auto accident where someone chips a fingernail to the extreme case of loss of life in an aviation disaster, I don't see where keeping material off limits is really value added.

Since the invsetigating entity is a public entity, as with the regulatory authority who authorizes a commercial transport company to do business, I do not see how the results of safety/regulatory audits (including accident investigations) can reasonably be withheld from the public.

While some call this exploitation in the name of entertainment, well, that is a matter of how the audience sees it. It is also a measure of how the material is presented.

Make no mistake, an investigation is neutral. A mission to determine facts. Thats it. From facts, we can judge.

Tom



Paper makes an airplane fly
25 SMF757 : Not saying that it would feel good. It's a horrible thing to have happen! But I'm sure it's helped you understand what mistakes were made to be preve
26 WILCO737 : It would've been enough for me to read only what was said. Then it is hard enough if you read it. Sure, listening to it is more real, but do I need t
27 ExFATboy : One cynical part of me wants to say that release of the actual tapes, rather than just a transcript, allows the press and society at large to make sur
28 FighterPilot : Well they're pretty convincing then. Have you ever watched an episode of Mayday? They can't even get what a real PFD looks like. Let alone the static
29 Post contains images DingDong : Sure does - thank you very much. I must be honest: I still disagree with your general premise, but do appreciate the fact you took time to offer a re
30 LongHauler : It is pure sensationalism on behalf of the commercial media. Pilots have been listening to CVR recordings and reading transcripts for decades. It is a
31 Trystero : Can't make a rule out of a stupid behavior. Media should be take more care with the way the handle this things. If they can't do it by themselves, so
32 Wjcandee : I'm no fan of CNN, but I don't recall them "bragging" about "bribing" anyone for a CVR tape of that accident. All I recall them having was the tower
33 Pihero : That sentence is at the heart of the matter. An accident investigation is made of a lo of clues / data / recordings / examinations that eventually se
34 Davescj : I agree. The facts are important to be shared, not the voices per se. I think what the public has a right to is the conclusions of the investigation.
35 Bennett123 : Legacytravel I did not mean to show disrespect to those who died, far from it. IMO they should be allowed to rest in peace. IMO the tapes are designed
36 AirNZ : No, one is your opinion only, and the other is someone else's........both of which have validity, and one no more than the other. No, providing the c
37 Threepoint : I'd like to provide a generally-contrary opinion here, in that I favour the release of the transcripts and in certain cases, the audio recordings them
38 Greasespot : I worked in the industry and It did not bother me....Just because they are released does not mean you have to listen to it....YOU make the choice to c
39 413X3 : the cvr and transcripts should only be available to anyone using it for learning purposes. the media is certainly not that. the media is entertainment
40 UA772IAD : In qualitative research, this is termed "naive realism," in which the researcher/reader interprets the transcriptions as telling the whole story. The
41 Jimbobjoe : The article at the top says that there is a law that prevents the NTSB from releasing the tapes. Does anyone know what law that is?
42 LTBEWR : More modern digital CVR systems have also improved the quality and quanity of such recordings and their emotional effects. One reason for releasing th
43 Threepoint : I'd venture that the playing of a recording or reading of a transcript in a courtroom setting is not a true public release. In these cases, I support
44 JetJeanes : If a family member request the final words i would go along with it as someties there are final words for the family. otherwise just a transcript is f
45 Threepoint : To an unaided or untrained ear, yes. But transport safety agencies have at their disposal, digital equipment that can isolate and enhance the most ga
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