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FAA To Avoid Confusion During DL-NW Integration  
User currently offlineTerryb99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8289 times:

FAA moves to avoid confusion during Delta-Northwest integration

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...fusion-during-delta-northwest.html

"The policy calls for pilots of flights carrying Northwest call signs but painted in Delta colors to include the phrase "Delta colors" at the end of certain radio calls and on written flight plans."

[Edited 2008-12-12 11:36:22]

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5686 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8253 times:

Why is this done now?

Why not keep the recognized airline as themselves regardless of who is painted?

US/AW did this fine, as did AA/TWA too. Or did it not work out and that is why?

If I remember actually, AA/TWA moved very quickly, 8 months after the merge announcement, TWA became AA call signs regardless of the paint scheme.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8223 times:

The other thing too, NW and DL only have one common type, the 757. If a DC-9 or Airbus or 747 shows up in Delta colors, it will obviously be a Northwest plane and crew. I think this might create more problems than it solves. After all, you can have four United CRJ's in ORD, and one could be Skywest, then Mesa, then GoJet, etc. Why don't they say United Colors after each one?

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8171 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 2):
After all, you can have four United CRJ's in ORD, and one could be Skywest, then Mesa, then GoJet, etc. Why don't they say United Colors after each one?

I think the difference is that when folks hear "Air Shuttle," they expect someone else's paint scheme. It's been quite some time since aircraft painted in something other than NW colors used the NW call sign.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSupraZachAir From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Feb 2004, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8138 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 1):
Why not keep the recognized airline as themselves regardless of who is painted?

US/AW did this fine, as did AA/TWA too. Or did it not work out and that is why?

I've personally heard exchanges at SFO where the ground controller actually became quite frustrated when he couldn't tell where the "Cactus" calling was. It was an HP airbus in new US colors. Granted this was early post merger, but I can see the reasons for trying to minimize confusion in the transitional period.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 2):
The other thing too, NW and DL only have one common type, the 757. If a DC-9 or Airbus or 747 shows up in Delta colors, it will obviously be a Northwest plane and crew.

Maybe obvious for you and I, but the majority of pilots and controllers would have no clue that the 757 was the only common type. Not everyone is an a.nutter.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7503 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8103 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 1):
Why not keep the recognized airline as themselves regardless of who is painted?

It is so it would be example "Northwest 52 Heavy, in Delta Colors" this is so that there is no confusion when ATC is looking out on ramp and don't get people mixed up thinking well Northwest called but i just see a Delta plane, this is more of a bigger deal with the 752 fleet.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 1):
US/AW did this fine, as did AA/TWA too. Or did it not work out and that is why?

Actually HP used Catus in US Airways colors call's during their merger.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 1):
TWA became AA call signs regardless of the paint scheme

By then they had the SOC and all flights were filed as AA.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5686 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8040 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):

Actually HP used Catus in US Airways colors call's during their merger.

Exactly, Thats my point. Until both fully merged, each airline use their own respective call sign, HP used Cactus as you mentioned while US Airways used USAIR.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):

By then they had the SOC and all flights were filed as AA.

That was quite quick then, only 8 months.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6728 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 8038 times:

What exactly if anything does this cost the FAA and should it be a cost and or consideration when airlines decide to merge?

I recognize folks talk about the money but this does complicate life for ATC and FAA, how onerous would it be to mandate during mergers that once a/c are re-painted they swicth call signs to the new carrier? It cannot all be about the airlines themselves, they do not operate in a vaccum where the only consideration relates to their economic well being.

Just a thought


User currently offlineRyDawg82 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 851 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7870 times:

I have been asking myself over and over again why this is being done. It was not done with HP/US TW/AA etc --- Further, look at Skywest, Mesa, Republic, etc that operate in many different colours and yet they seem to sort them out just fine. Skywest 84X with you clear of xxxx for gate xxx. You know where he is and where he wants to go. If operating for United, most likely he is gonna give you a much different gate than if operating for Delta.

Just seems silly....
Ryan



You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7821 times:



Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 8):
If operating for United, most likely he is gonna give you a much different gate than if operating for Delta.

I doubt that the ATL-NRT flight will be using NW's gates at ATL...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1231 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7777 times:

Should add that Dispatchers will also be filing "Delta Colors" in the remarks of FPs

User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1097 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7752 times:

Simplified version which should be self explanatory:

Northwest/Delta XXX call sign for the aircraft in DL colors, or just Northwest XXX for aircraft with the NW logo. Simple.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7503 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7695 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 6):
Exactly, Thats my point. Until both fully merged, each airline use their own respective call sign, HP used Cactus as you mentioned while US Airways used USAIR.

Ok, you didn't get what I said, HP used the cactus call sign yes, and even the HP aircraft that were in the US colors said, Cactus XXX in US colors.

Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 8):
Further, look at Skywest, Mesa, Republic, etc that operate in many different colours and yet they seem to sort them out just fine. Skywest 84X with you clear of xxxx for gate xxx.

There is a difference, when talking to RJ's which are easier to spot out than the difference between a mainline merged company aircraft.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 11):
Northwest/Delta XXX call sign for the aircraft in DL colors, or just Northwest XXX for aircraft with the NW logo. Simple.

It will be Northwest XXX in Delta colors, not Northwest XXX Delta XXX in Delta Colors.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
I doubt that the ATL-NRT flight will be using NW's gates at ATL...

Your right, since NW's gates don't have access to customs.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7686 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 12):
Your right, since NW's gates don't have access to customs.

...nor can they accommodate a 744.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5686 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 7533 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 12):
Ok, you didn't get what I said, HP used the cactus call sign yes, and even the HP aircraft that were in the US colors said, Cactus XXX in US colors.

No I fully understood what you said. Again, even while HP is in US colors, until the certfic is merged, both airlines should use their respective airline call sign until it is completed.

I think we are stating the same thing buddy  Wink

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 7479 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Sounds to me like the FAA is just being super-careful, trying to avoid possible confusion.

If it makes things safer, and requires little-to-no effort, seems like a good idea to me.

- litz


User currently offlineC767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 879 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 7453 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 14):
No I fully understood what you said. Again, even while HP is in US colors, until the certfic is merged, both airlines should use their respective airline call sign until it is completed.

It makes sense to do this though for safety concerns. Not only is it to help controllers in the tower, but other pilots.

“Northwest XXX” suggests you are looking for a Northwest aircraft. When the aircraft is in Delta’s scheme it gets confusing and potentially dangerous. This way the controller can expect the aircraft to be painted and knows what they are looking for. They can also advise other traffic what they are looking for.

It might not be that big of a deal flying to some airports, but get to the hub airports and it could be very confusing.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7503 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 7348 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 14):
No I fully understood what you said. Again, even while HP is in US colors, until the certfic is merged, both airlines should use their respective airline call sign until it is completed.

I think we are stating the same thing buddy

Alex

Both are using their own callsigns, NW planes that are painted are just adding in a comment that their plane is painted in Delta Colors.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7316 times:

So a move that is obviously to improve safety and avoid confusion is dismissed by most people simply because "we never did that before"?

All y'all sound like old codgers. "It was good enough for my grandfather, dag gummit, so it's good enough for me!"

Do we really fear change that much, good or bad? If so, how on earth did Obama get elected?  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1097 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 7190 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 12):
Quoting CV880 (Reply 11):
Northwest/Delta XXX call sign for the aircraft in DL colors, or just Northwest XXX for aircraft with the NW logo. Simple.

It will be Northwest XXX in Delta colors, not Northwest XXX Delta XXX in Delta Colors.

Again: Northwest/Delta XXX for Delta Logo aircraft, and simply Northwest XXX for NW Logo aircraft.
Nothing about DL colors. ATC radio traffic should be simple, not lengthy.


User currently offlineNYC2theworld From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 7006 times:



Quoting CV880 (Reply 19):
Northwest/Delta XXX for Delta Logo aircraft

To me this reads that its a Northwest flight operated by Delta using delta metal AND under the auspices of Delta's certificate.
vs
"Northwest XXXX in Delta colors" meaning its a NW flight number on an repainted plane however under the auspices of NW's certificate.



Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
User currently offlineDelta763 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6694 times:

Why are we even mentioning the repainted 744? Isn't ATL-NRT going to operate with a DL code anyway?

I guess this means they intend to go full speed ahead on repainting the rest of the fleet, implying lots of NW coded flights with NW crews out of NW gates flying planes that say Delta.


User currently offlineCaptSkibi From United States of America, joined May 2004, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6656 times:

God forbid, but can you imagine the media in the event of a crash?

Quote:
We have just received breaking news that a Northwest Airbus 777-400ER, being operated by Delta Airlines, just crashed while trying to avoid landing at Chicago's Midway Airport.

Sources say that the 777, built in 1989, suddenly got louder as the engines revved up just prior to landing. Aviation experts say that this is a highly irregular procedure, called a "going round", that is ordered by the catering staff because the food isn't ready.

The airplane, carrying 53 people, 50 passengers and 3 crew, was flying between Springfield, IL on its way to Minneapolis-St. Paul. More news when we have more...

 laughing 



Private Pilot, Airplane Single Engine Land / DL Gold Elite
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6637 times:



Quoting Delta763 (Reply 21):
Why are we even mentioning the repainted 744? Isn't ATL-NRT going to operate with a DL code anyway?

Yes, but that has nothing to do with what the flightplan is filed under with ATC.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineNws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 854 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 6388 times:



Quoting Delta763 (Reply 21):
Why are we even mentioning the repainted 744? Isn't ATL-NRT going to operate with a DL code anyway?

It may operate with a DL flight number in addition to a NW flight number, but it will be flown by NW crews on the NW certificate, at least until the merger is completed and all aircraft and crews are flying under a single operating certificate.


25 Atrude777 : Yes, exactly, and back to square one, WHY was this needed to be added? I once again add as I had been reiterating in the past, AA/TWA and US/HP did t
26 Ytib : Do you know for certain it was done just fine and without confusion? This is not also being done for the folks in the tower but also the other pilots
27 Cubsrule : Of course, HP and US didn't have as much overlap as do DL and NW; there were probably fewer than 10 stations that saw more than 5 flights a day from
28 Bok269 : Is that for the same reason as why the people movers say "Concourse D as in David"?
29 Cubsrule : I assume... are the rest Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, and Echo? I usually don't pay much attention...
30 RDUDDJI : Well, in cop/telemarketer speak, they typically use names, i.e.: Adam Baker Charlie David Edward Frank etc... The military and aviation share the sam
31 C767P : Aviation uses the NATO phonetic alphabet, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, etc. I was unaware that taxiway D in ATL is Dixie, but it would make se
32 Apodino : Actually there is no Taxiway D in ATL. Taxiway Dixie is both signed as Dixie on the taxiway signs, and is labeled Dixie on Jeppesen Charts.
33 ComairGuyCVG : Yep, they do the same here at CVG. Taxiway D is called Dixie by ATC.
34 Antoniemey : Military: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot... Presumably to avoid mass confusion between the taxiway and the main airline there.
35 Pilotboi : Yup - to avoid confusion. If they said "D as in Delta", everyone would be like "OMG, I got to get off, I'm flying Delta!" Again - the FAA is doing it
36 Cubsrule : Of course, CVG is south of the Ohio River... even if Cincinnati isn't. That's a heck of a lot closer to Dixie than Minneapolis is. Luckily, DTW doesn
37 DLCnxgptjax : I've never seen any of the signs say "Dixie" on the taxiways. I have seen the "D" just like any other airport. I do agree that the Jepps say taxiway
38 Burnsie28 : Only for marketing purposed, it will be filed as Northwest XXX until the SOC is combined.
39 CV880 : Too "wordy" for ATC traffic
40 N6168E : It was also done like this when Piedmont merged with USAir. "Pidemont XXX in USAir Colors"
41 PSU.DTW.SCE : If your definition of fine is no major incidents, then yes. However there were some reports of confusion regarding TWA aircraft in AA colors that wer
42 WESTERN737800 : I agree communication is a very good thing, better proactive than reactive. Thats an excellent idea. Recongizes the difference while tying up the fre
43 Ikramerica : Which would make sense, because if it were not, and simply labled D on the charts, that would be Delta, not Dixie. CVG is in Kentucky, Kentucky is in
44 Cubsrule : At one point, if you searched for flights on airfrance.com and were offered a connection at CVG, it would tell you that you'd be connecting at "North
45 Wagz : Wordy or not its happening. Although the crew is supposed to only be using the "Delta Colors" suffix on the first call to Ramp or Ground Control. In
46 Cubsrule : Do you know if they're required to do this?
47 Rwy04LGA : Do they use United flight numbers or Skywest/Mesa/GoJet flight numbers? A flight from ATL to NRT does not need customs and can leave from any gate. S
48 DocLightning : Yeah, but from a distance on a hazy day, an A320 and a 757 can look very similar from certain angles. As can a DC-9 and a CRJ. It's a precaution, not
49 Mir : Because ground control will often tell airplanes to follow one another to the runway (something like "JetBlue 535, follow the Northwest 757 at K"). I
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