Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 21 Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4405 times:
Really? I have not heard anything about this yet. Not sure if it's good news (less competition), but necessary for MP. I wonder what KL will do with the pax fleet of MP. MP planned to introduce a332's to replace the 763's. I don't know what happened with this plan.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4390 times:
I think they were closely copperating for yrs already specially on the cargo front. KLM never felt much need to interfer with Martinair and Transavia because they are good at what they do and serve different market segments.
KLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 776 posts, RR: 29 Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4201 times:
It will indeed be interesting to see what happens!
My guess would be that the cargo division will be absorbed by AFKLcargo, and that the
pax-ops will pretty much remain as they are today!
Conti764 From Belgium, joined Dec 2007, 222 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4079 times:
Quoting Voyager747 (Reply 4): What dose Brussels have to do with it?
EU regulatory administration has to give the go ahead for these kind of mergers/take-overs. 'Brussels' is just a synonym for the EU and used in every decision taken by the EU. It is also very popular when national governments need to take unpopular measures ("Blame it on Brussels" )
Back on topic, what about the plans of Martinair to move a part of their operations from AMS to BRU because of the ecotax in the Netherlands?
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 7913 posts, RR: 14 Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3881 times:
Quoting Conti764 (Reply 5): Back on topic, what about the plans of Martinair to move a part of their operations from AMS to BRU because of the ecotax in the Netherlands?
Interesting but I don't really see that happening. The costs of moving to BRU would be similar if not more costly if I think about the cost of relocating to another location, cost of housing of employees in BRU which will be another discussion as to who will want to move to BRU from AMS and if too little or no people want to move to BRU it means looking for new personnel in BRU, meaning additional training costs. Another discussion is the passengers MP will lose as not everybody wants to take a bus from the Netherlands to BRU to take the MP flight from BRU. I think it's more of a thread towards the Dutch Government to force the ecotax to be cancelled. Time will tell.
Sflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1155 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3518 times:
Quoting Voyager747 (Reply 4): I thought that the Netherland goverment blocked the merger because they want the competition.What dose Brussels have to do with it?
The EU plan calls for the integration of aviation to be governed by the ''federal'' government in Brussels, especially after the full implementation of the unified treaty. It's a matter of time before ''states'' will have less of a say in the airline business (much like the American and Canadian union).
Flyingfool From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 394 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3296 times:
Quoting A388 (Reply 6): Another discussion is the passengers MP will lose as not everybody wants to take a bus from the Netherlands to BRU to take the MP flight from BRU.
Do not forget the connecting passengers, there are not only Dutch pax on board the MP flights but there are also a lot of passengers making a transfer at AMS to the MP flights, especially from the Scandinavian country's.
Frigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 986 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3204 times:
I wonder what effect this will have on MP's fleet.
Quoting Kappel (Reply 1): MP planned to introduce a332's to replace the 763's. I don't know what happened with this plan.
IIRC, the plan was to start replacing the 763's around this time frame, but where will those A332's come from? Certainly not new-build ones, so most likely from a leasing company - if it's gonna happen at all... But perhaps the money wouldn't be available until AF/KL took a 100% stake in MP. The 763's have a lot of cycles behind them, so replacement cannot be delayed too much.
As for the freighters, MP wanted 777F's to replace the MD11F's. But the price tag was too high a hurdle earlier this year, so maybe this will be less of a problem now that the 777F can be obtained for a lower price by the AF/KL group.
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3000 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3172 times:
I'm really curious what will happen with Martinair. Currently, it is a loss-making company needing a lot of attention to become profitable again.
Last year, they already suspended all intra-European operations. For passenger transport, they are left with flights to YYZ, YVR, MIA and some Caribbean destinations. Also, they codeshare with AA from MIA, for example to SJO.
I really wonder if they will maintain their flights to Canada. I expect KLM to use the MP brand for pure holiday destinations only. I also expect the AA-cooperation to disappear, with the ATL hub offering the same connections.
And (purely speculative), I wonder if KLM would really want to maintain the Martinair brand. IMHO, at least in the Netherlands, the Transavia brand is stronger than Martinair. Besides that, they have a similar market: low/medium-fare holiday destinations and sales to tour operators. Would integration of MP and HV be an option?
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 3648 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2462 times:
Quoting Joost (Reply 10): Besides that, they have a similar market: low/medium-fare holiday destinations and sales to tour operators. Would integration of MP and HV be an option?
No the MP brand is full sevice long haul whereas HV brand is low cost short haul.
Quoting Voyager747 (Reply 4): I thought that the Netherland goverment blocked the merger because they want the competition.What dose Brussels have to do with it?
The Dutch government never blocked the merger. The "problem" was Brussels as they feared that a combined MP-KL would be too dominant on the AMS-Dutch Antilles routes. Therefore KL and MP made some concessions. Furthermore the other suitors for MP (SQC was rumoured) tried their best to block the KL-MP deal in order to force KL to sell their stake to them (Nedloyd, the other MP shareholder stated for amny years they want to get rid of MP). However as these competitors were only interested in the cargo operations, the Dutch government favoured a KL-MP link up. KL already mentioned that they want to use the MP brand as the long haul holiday destinations brand for the KLM Group. They also mentioned (last year) that they don´t intend to intergrate the MP organisation into the AF/KL Cargo brand in "the near future".
Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 7):
Quoting Voyager747 (Reply 4):
I thought that the Netherland goverment blocked the merger because they want the competition.What dose Brussels have to do with it?
The EU plan calls for the integration of aviation to be governed by the ''federal'' government in Brussels, especially after the full implementation of the unified treaty. It's a matter of time before ''states'' will have less of a say in the airline business (much like the American and Canadian union).
Incorrect. Any merger / take over which may result in a company getting a too dominant on a certain market within the EU must be approved by the EU. The involved markets in the MP case were initially the inclusive tour market out off The Netherlands. However lately the biggest problems arose on the AMS-Dutch Antilles market (note that this is an internal EU market as the Dutch Antilles are part of the EU). This is similar to what happens in the US and all around the world and in all lines of businesses.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 7913 posts, RR: 14 Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2356 times:
Quoting Flyingfool (Reply 8): Do not forget the connecting passengers, there are not only Dutch pax on board the MP flights but there are also a lot of passengers making a transfer at AMS to the MP flights, especially from the Scandinavian country's.
Regards, Flyingfool.
Certainly AMS is a better connecting airport with lots more flights from Scandinavia compared to BRU, correct?
Quoting Joost (Reply 10): Besides that, they have a similar market: low/medium-fare holiday destinations and sales to tour operators. Would integration of MP and HV be an option?
MP flies international long haul flights, whereas HV flies shorthaul European flights. How can these two airlines be similar to each other? They are not.
Sflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1155 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2143 times:
Quoting LJ (Reply 12):
Incorrect. Any merger / take over which may result in a company getting a too dominant on a certain market within the EU must be approved by the EU. The involved markets in the MP case were initially the inclusive tour market out off The Netherlands. However lately the biggest problems arose on the AMS-Dutch Antilles market (note that this is an internal EU market as the Dutch Antilles are part of the EU). This is similar to what happens in the US and all around the world and in all lines of businesses.
Reread the post. That is exactly what I said. The EU government is the overriding branch of government that governs potential EU monopolies. NL government must yield power to EU in this matter.
Now, what is interesting in this matter is that the EU states have given up more power than the Ameican states (weird for all the talk on this forum of nationalist rights). In the US, the idea of intRA-state commerce can NOT be handled by the federal government. IntER-state commerce is severely controlled by the federal governement. The EU government should have ZERO say over an AMS-Dutch Antilles route, as it should be considered IntRA state travel, but that power (monopolies) lies solely on the EU government. That is another example of the dicotimy of the EU
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 19207 posts, RR: 18 Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2121 times:
Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 14): The EU government should have ZERO say over an AMS-Dutch Antilles route, as it should be considered IntRA state travel, but that power (monopolies) lies solely on the EU government. That is another example of the dicotimy of the EU
Fair enough, but OTOH if the US government were considering a merger that would give someone a monopoly on LAX-SFO, they'd certainly be entitled to consider that market even though it's an intrastate market.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 7913 posts, RR: 14 Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2038 times:
Interesting conversations, but what is the difference between interstate and intrastate?
If anyone has more information on the number of frequencies on the AMS-CUR route of both KL and MP now that they are "one" please let me know. Will they both be able to keep daily flights or not?
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3000 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2003 times:
Quoting LJ (Reply 12): However lately the biggest problems arose on the AMS-Dutch Antilles market (note that this is an internal EU market as the Dutch Antilles are part of the EU).
Incorrect. the Dutch Antilles and Aruba are NOT part of the EU. The citizens of Aruba and the Antilles are considered EU citizens (they can vote for the EP) but the countries are definitely no member states. The EU open skies treaty does NOT apply to flights between the Netherlands and the Dutch Antilles or Arbua.
The Antilles have a status as Overseas territory, just like, for example, Greenland or the Falkland islands. (In dutch: Landen en Gebieden Overzee, LGO-status).
Currently there are discussions whether they should become "Outermost region" (Ultraperifere Regio, UPG-status), just like the Canaries or French Guyana. However, there is no final answer yet.
Only two European countries have bilateral ASA's with the Antilles: the Netherlands and Germany.
Quoting A388 (Reply 16): Interesting conversations, but what is the difference between interstate and intrastate?
In this context, interstate is any intra-EU flight; intrastate any flight from the EU to a country outside the EU. Currently, NL-Antilles is Intra-state.
Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 14): Reread the post. That is exactly what I said. The EU government is the overriding branch of government that governs potential EU monopolies. NL government must yield power to EU in this matter.
What I don't understand: why was the decision for FlyBE / BACON taken by the OFT, Air Belrin - dba by the BKA, but other mergers by the EC?
Quoting A388 (Reply 13): MP flies international long haul flights, whereas HV flies shorthaul European flights. How can these two airlines be similar to each other? They are not.
Of course, the airlines are not identical. But they do serve the same type of routes: vacation routes. The only difference is the distance and thereby, the type of aircraft. But both carriers most often compete on price, both carriers sell a large number of tickets through tour operators and both carriers connect to KLMs network at AMS.
A carrier that operates both long-haul and short-haul routes under one brand is not something new. Even MP did it up to a year ago, and ArkeFly is also offering both long-haul and short-haul flights.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 7913 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1839 times:
Quoting Joost (Reply 17): Quoting A388 (Reply 16):
Interesting conversations, but what is the difference between interstate and intrastate?
In this context, interstate is any intra-EU flight; intrastate any flight from the EU to a country outside the EU. Currently, NL-Antilles is Intra-state.
Sflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1155 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1646 times:
Quoting Joost (Reply 17):
Incorrect. the Dutch Antilles and Aruba are NOT part of the EU. The citizens of Aruba and the Antilles are considered EU citizens (they can vote for the EP) but the countries are definitely no member states. The EU open skies treaty does NOT apply to flights between the Netherlands and the Dutch Antilles or Arbua.
YES! I forgot about that. I believed that the NL Antilles had been fully integrated into the NL, but I see that has been postponed. Therefore, it would be considered inter-State travel for the EU. But now this becomes even more confusing to me!
Quoting Joost (Reply 17): In this context, interstate is any intra-EU flight; intrastate any flight from the EU to a country outside the EU. Currently, NL-Antilles is Intra-state.
Half correct, maybe? Interstate is any intra-EU flight would be correct. Intrastate travel would be within any EU country - intra meaning inside. So generally any movement (notice I say movement not flight) to/from outside the EU is also inter-State with a capital S. In English there are words State and state. I'm saying this to clarify. (State=country and state=entity with powers with in a country).
But....... Here is my confusion now after I read more. Since NL Antilles is NOT part of the EU, I believe each country's bilateral takes over (except countries who have given up their bilateral and adopted the EU's - can't remember which countries those are off the top of my head). Now, eventhough the NL Antilles are part of Netherlands, they do have a bilateral. So why would the EU be the final decision maker. Then, it should have been the NL gov't to decide this. I need to research this more and come back with more answers.
Quoting Joost (Reply 17): The citizens of Aruba and the Antilles are considered EU citizens (they can vote for the EP) but the countries are definitely no member states.
Does EP mean European Presidency? So the Schengen agreement does or does not apply to NL Antilles? Because if they are EU citizens, then the Schengen agreement should cover them. Why would they vote for EU presidency if they are outside the EU and it has no jurisdiction of the NL Antilles? Again, I'll have to research this or ask my EU expert coworker at the University where I teach.
Looking at the closest model to the EU, the American Union (though not the same - a lot of the EU is modeled after the US) outlying territories (PR, Guam and VI) are citizens of the US, but can't vote and don't pay taxes to the federal gov't. If this is the case where NL Antilles are not part of the EU, outside the tax zone, receive financial support from the EU and still can vote for EP, then they have the best deal ever.
Quoting Joost (Reply 17):
What I don't understand: why was the decision for FlyBE / BACON taken by the OFT, Air Belrin - dba by the BKA, but other mergers by the EC?
Very interesting too. Wasn't dba strictly a German airline. They didn't fly outside of Germany correct? If so, then Air Berlin (a German airline) taking over a purely domestic German airline might not need EU approval. I'm not sure about FlyBE/BACON though.
I'm sure our experts on here might have an answer.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 7913 posts, RR: 14 Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1630 times:
Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 19): But....... Here is my confusion now after I read more. Since NL Antilles is NOT part of the EU, I believe each country's bilateral takes over (except countries who have given up their bilateral and adopted the EU's - can't remember which countries those are off the top of my head). Now, eventhough the NL Antilles are part of Netherlands, they do have a bilateral. So why would the EU be the final decision maker. Then, it should have been the NL gov't to decide this. I need to research this more and come back with more answers.
Quoting Joost (Reply 17):
The citizens of Aruba and the Antilles are considered EU citizens (they can vote for the EP) but the countries are definitely no member states.
Does EP mean European Presidency? So the Schengen agreement does or does not apply to NL Antilles? Because if they are EU citizens, then the Schengen agreement should cover them. Why would they vote for EU presidency if they are outside the EU and it has no jurisdiction of the NL Antilles? Again, I'll have to research this or ask my EU expert coworker at the University where I teach.
I would like to know more about this too, especially when looking at the AMS-CUR route. When MP is fully owned by KL does this mean they cannot expand on this route as KL/MP will than have 14 weekly flights whereas the competition (Arkefly) will only have 5-7 weekly flights? What are the consequences for the number of flights operated between AMS-CUR because of MP now being part of KL and why?
Petertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3083 posts, RR: 15 Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1545 times:
Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 19): YES! I forgot about that. I believed that the NL Antilles had been fully integrated into the NL, but I see that has been postponed.
Right now the Dutch Antilles and the Netherlands are negotiating on a change within the Kingdom. In fact, our PM arrived there only two or three days ago.
From what I understand Curacao and Sint Maarten will become independent countries as requested by their people in a referendum. The other islands of the Antilles will become boroughs ("gemeenten") with special status of the Netherlands. The Antilles hope to finish this in 2010. The Netherlands are aiming for somewhere between 2010 and 2012.
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 21 Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1465 times:
Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 21): From what I understand Curacao and Sint Maarten will become independent countries as requested by their people in a referendum.
Not really independent, a status aparte like Aruba has now. The NL will still have a say in the finances and justice system of these islands.
Just for the record, The Canary Islands are an integral part of Spain as well as the Balearic Islands. They are autonomous Communities and fully a part of the Kingdom of Spain, itself a full EU member since 1985.
On the question of Martinair and services to Cancún, there has a rumour for quite a while now (almost since the airline took over passenger and cargo operations here back in April and ditched the GSA that had served them for 17 uninterrupted years) that, once this final takeover by AF.- KLM was in place, Cancún would be closed and instead, Air France would run a Paris-St. Maarten-Cancun-Paris service. Anyone heard anything about it ?
Sflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1155 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1267 times:
Quoting Kappel (Reply 22): Not really independent, a status aparte like Aruba has now. The NL will still have a say in the finances and justice system of these islands.
So will they no longer be EU citizens. Do Arubans have their own passports, or are the Dutch citizens?
Also, what will that mean to bilaterals. Do the NL Antilles bi laterals still stand or will new ones be created?
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4834 posts, RR: 6 Reply 25, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1149 times:
Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 19): Very interesting too. Wasn't dba strictly a German airline. They didn't fly outside of Germany correct?
Im pretty sure they did have limited international services. Under BA ownership days they served Gatwick and Im sure after independence they started some international services prior the Germania/LTU/AB deals
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