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AA To Try Intra-Europe Flights Again?  
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7186 posts, RR: 86
Posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12830 times:
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The future of air travel, as I see it, is market segmentation into two broad airline types: budget and premium.

With the freeing up of aircraft for American on US-EU/SA travel, it leaves questions unanswered. Seems airlines are using a 60-day plan these days as they don't know what the economy holds for the future of their airline.

Anyone see the return of AA running intra-Europe routes from LHR or FRA?

I certainly can't see any US carrier competing with a European carrier on luxury or even price, but certain airlines would make money if we saw this once popular trend return.

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24796 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12717 times:

Why?

The basing of aircraft overseas is an incredibly inefficient and expensive proposition not the least due their low utilization opportunity and union crew cost burdens.

AA and the other US airlines greatly benefit in their partnerships with their respective European partnerships which can provide a large pool of connection seats and destinations.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24906 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12621 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Anyone see the return of AA running intra-Europe routes from LHR

They have a small partner called British Airways to do this for them  Wink
Albeit from a completely different terminal  Wink



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7493 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12610 times:

Isnt that what codeshareing is for? Putting your name and number of flights it makes no sense for you to fly.

I dont think AA will fly intra-Europe. It doesnt make any sense. They have a rich codeshare relationship with BA and IB.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7186 posts, RR: 86
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12459 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
The basing of aircraft overseas is an incredibly inefficient and expensive

a/c is unused for good amount of time.  twocents 

What about when AA starts their 757 subfleet?


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1829 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12336 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
The future of air travel, as I see it, is market segmentation into two broad airline types: budget and premium



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Anyone see the return of AA running intra-Europe routes from LHR or FRA?

And in which category do you put AA ?  Big grin  duck 


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12193 times:

They also have a partnership with SNCF "airlines" for many French destinations out of CDG. And, since they use T2 there, it's relatively convenient for connecting pax as rail station is at T2.
Any codeshare with IB out of MAD by any chance?

I'm wondering in which interest they would base a bunch of 737s/757s overseas while they have partners who can do a similar job.

Perhaps a 767 could do, say, CDG-(throwing a random destination here)VIE/MXP/PRG whatever else/during its European layover, and get all the pax from the different AA hubs (LAX, JFK, MIA, ORD) into one single aircraft, but what's the difference with connecting all these pax via a E coast airport (namely JFK) and send them non-stop to the European city they need?



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12194 times:

I remember flying on UA 727's in Europe in the early 1990's. The 727 was configured to 24 First Class seats and I flew it often between FRA and LHR.

Cheers,
BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22715 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11984 times:



Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 6):
Perhaps a 767 could do, say, CDG-(throwing a random destination here)VIE/MXP/PRG whatever else/during its European layover, and get all the pax from the different AA hubs (LAX, JFK, MIA, ORD) into one single aircraft,

US airlines are not, and have not been, averse to doing this in South America (mainly GRU-GIG and EZE-MVD). That makes me think that we'd see it happening in Europe if there were a business case for it.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24796 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11910 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
US airlines are not, and have not been, averse to doing this in South America (mainly GRU-GIG and EZE-MVD

South America and Asia are totaly different cases.

The scheduling parameters often require long ground times, hence its not an expensive exercise to add a tag flight with an inbound aircraft.

Atlantic schedules on the other hands lend themselves very well to quick turn arounds at the EU airports for same day returns to the US hubs. There is no need to park airplanes in Europe for extensive periods as the South America schedules necessitate.

Additionally, US carriers have strong European partners with dense networks which they can conveniently feed instead of tie up equipment and money doing it themselves.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22715 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11885 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
South America and Asia are totaly different cases.

 checkmark They certainly are. My point was that, as you detail, there's a business case for it in South America. If there were a similar case for it in Europe, carriers wouldn't hesitate to do it. There isn't, so we don't see it.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineExaauadl From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11651 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Anyone see the return of SA)">AA running intra-Europe routes from LHR or FRA?

no

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
With the freeing up of aircraft for American on US-EU/SA travel, it leaves questions unanswered

which questions do you have in mind?


User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10314 times:

Out of all the airlines out their in the US. I could possibly see DL returning to intra-Europe flights again. Remember they had alot of aircraft in Europe after buying Pan Am. In fact they had a small hub in FRA for some time.

Chuck


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24796 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9816 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Anyone see the return of AA running intra-Europe routes from LHR or FRA?

I may have forgotten something but I can never recall AA operating intra-Europe routes with aircraft based in Europe the way PA/DL/UA/TW did. I know AA had a small number of tag-on sectors in Europe, sometimes without even any local trafffic rights as when they briefly operated ORD-ZRH-GVA. I flew that flight once ORD-GVA on a 767-200 and the ZRH-GVA sector was almost empty, maybe 25 passengers. They dropped the GVA tag after a year or so.

When code-sharing and alliances became common it made no sense to base aircraft and crews in Europe which was very costly. Those aircraft also frequently had poor utilization as they could only be used on 5th freedom services covered by the individual bilaterals between the USA and certain countries in Europe. Schedules also had to be coordinated with longhaul US-Europe flights so departures/arrival times were often not attractive to local traffic. The exception was Pan Am's internal German service when Berlin was divided as that service to from West Berlin was intended for the local market as LH or other German airlines weren't permitted to serve West Berlin until Germany was unified in the late 1980s.

Low-cost carriers like Ryanair and EasyJet also didn't exist in those days. They're now the dominant carriers on many routes and at many airports. For example, EasyJet has been the largest operator at GVA for several years and now accounts for about 35% of all passengers to/from GVA. The traditional European carriers have been forced to cut costs to compete with the LCCs. That makes it even less likely that US carrier's with the high costs of basing aircraft and crews so far from home would be able to compete on an economic basis.


User currently offlineAAMDanny From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8507 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
AA and the other US airlines greatly benefit in their partnerships with their respective European partnerships which can provide a large pool of connection seats and destinations

Answers the Question.

That's why there part of OneWorld. They have Finnair, Iberia and British Airways for all that, especially BA to Europe from LHR. AA basing an aircraft at LHR would be pointless and, it would be pissing into BA's pond, like if BA were to base aircraft and fly intra-america from e.g. JFK... then BA would be pissing into AA's pond.


User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8379 times:

Will not happen. DG7 will not allow this until the US gov allows 100% foreign ownership!


Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1829 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8242 times:



Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 13):
I could possibly see DL returning to intra-Europe flights again

They have AF, KL, AZ, OK and Air Europa for this. No need to waste equipement and tons of money to do it by themselves


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7897 times:

There is no room for a foreign intra European airline. We have fantastic low-cost airline options and a wealth of high quality national airlines.

AA, I'm told, don't provide a service to write home about.


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4359 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7871 times:

Er, when did AA operate 'Intra-Europe' ?

Pan Am, Twa, even UA did for a while, but not AA.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinePaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5777 times:

Correct..... AA never did. We never saw or ever will see the best US livery at AMS anytime soon unfortunately, apart from the Fokker 100's that were deliverd in the eighties...

[Edited 2008-12-17 07:36:27]

User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3915 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5644 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Anyone see the return of AA running intra-Europe routes from LHR or FRA?

Surely that is the whole point of the BA/AA ATI and possible future merger? BA can do this better than AA can.

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
I certainly can't see any US carrier competing with a European carrier on luxury or even price, but certain airlines would make money if we saw this once popular trend return.

So if they can't compete with BA et al on service, FR et all on price what would they compete with? A schedule designed to feed into LHR to connect with their long-haul services? Oh, and what slots would AA use? Even if they moved to multiple daily A389 service AA still would not have anything like enough like an attractive schedule, they would have no evening services!

Im gonna call this one - not going to happen!



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5580 times:

a non-starter given the lack of slots at the likes of LHR and FRA.

30 million for just one slot pair would be a pretty high price for something that could be done in a far cheaper more effective way...



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4359 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4579 times:

What 'livery' ? last time I looked AA doesn't have one, unless you count a logo over polished skin !


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4478 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
US airlines are not, and have not been, averse to doing this in South America (mainly GRU-GIG and EZE-MVD). That makes me think that we'd see it happening in Europe if there were a business case for it.

The GRU-GIG flights do not have any local passenger rights.

The GRU-EZE, MVD, or SCL flights make sense as the planes would normally spend 12 hours on the ground at GRU waiting for the overnight return flight, so if the tag can be flown at anywhere above a break-even when ramp and landing fees are included....


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22715 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4452 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 23):
The GRU-EZE, MVD, or SCL flights make sense as the planes would normally spend 12 hours on the ground at GRU waiting for the overnight return flight, so if the tag can be flown at anywhere above a break-even when ramp and landing fees are included....

 checkmark That's why it makes much less sense in Europe... it would really screw up the schedules of the TATL flights.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 A318 : Didn't DL fly between SNN and DUB? Or was that just a continuation flight without local rights?
26 Skyfellow : If I am not mistaken Pan Am operated German domestic and international flights out of Berlin Tegel as a result of the historical "political issues" o
27 Max Q : Pan Am and Twa operated 727's 'intra-europe for some time. Not sure of their hubs but Heathrow and Frankfurt come to mind.
28 Elmothehobo : This was done because of the old US-Ireland bilateral which required every airline that flew between Dublin and the United States to also serve Shann
29 Richcandy : Hi The problem with AA flying routes within Europe is what routes? They would need to look for a route with high revenue that only needs to served onc
30 MBJ2000 : Question is, who would want to fly AA in Europe? In my opinion AA is the worst North America has to offer. Maybe rename it to El Cheapo Air (or even b
31 Richcandy : I am not sure that AA could handle 148 drunken brits on a saturday night in August back to the UK!
32 Smokeyrosco : Most of FR's aircraft are based overseas....
33 DLPMMM : I find AA's product to be slightly better than LH's product, so I guess I agree with you.
34 ElmoTheHobo : Within the common market. Free movement of labor, similar labor laws, common currency. However... American, and other US carriers have based crews ov
35 L1011Lover : Well actually, they operated intra-Europe flights for decades, not only for some time. Pan Am and TWA both had a hub at LHR, Pan Am's second European
36 Max Q : Very informative L1011 lover, thanks for the information.
37 Jacobin777 : How about LTN-STR..
38 Viscount724 : But if memory correct those flights were legally continuations of Pan Am USA-LHR flights, often with a change of aircraft type to a narrow-body (both
39 Jfk777 : Why would AA or Delta or any other North American airline fly between two European cities today. The Only services by US airlines today from Europe go
40 L1011Lover : That's correct... the intra-Europe flights from LHR were all continuations of PA's USA-LHR flights... from/to LHR Pan Am had 5th freedom rights on it
41 Slz396 : Interesting question, but a purely theoretical one I am afraid.... some things to consider: -) slots: To make this plan work, any US airline who'd be
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