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Article: Can Airbus Keep Its Edge On Boeing?  
User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 998 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 10789 times:

Interesting article.
Airbus may be in real deeeeeeeeep doo doo.
Orders canceling due to the economy and an A350 program months behind on design specifications. According to the article Airbus is gaining little ground on the B787 regardless of the problems faced by Boeing and the 4 year delivery gap between the two plastic birds will remain in tact.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...081215_780315.htm?campaign_id=yhoo


Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 10767 times:

I thought design freeze was October 2008?

User currently offlineSsublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 10705 times:

I don't put much weight on that article. The months "behind in specification" seems to result in customer requests. Airbus' A350 won't be as new to them as the 787 is to Boeing as quite a bit of of tech will come from the A380 program.

User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 10689 times:

Funny or sad how the faithfully believe in the delivery date of 2010 for the B787...

User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8987 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 10658 times:



Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):

I read that as a nice OPED piece from Chicago.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 1):
I thought design freeze was October 2008?

Design freeze was met on schedule LAST year, it is the details design that is still having tweeks.

from the Nov letter to Airbus customers

Quote:
The A350 XWB programme is progressing well and is on track. Throughout 2009 Airbus will see the continuation of its industrial set-up (buildings, tools, jigs) being deployed and installed across various Airbus sites in order to prepare the construction process of the aircraft.

Structural demonstrators for wings, fuselage are being developed, and the first fuselage cross-section demonstrator, %u2018Barrel 1A%u2019, is validating the innovative construction methods and establish maturity. To this end, it is tasked with static load testing, and is showing a good level of correlation with the original prediction for the ultimate loads. Next year this demonstrator will also be used for the electrical systems network testing.

A second %u2018Barrel 1B%u2019 demonstrator will follow in 2009. This will incorporate production representative composite frames and a door, and will refine dynamic fatigue testing. This demonstrator will also contribute to the eventual airworthiness certification dossier.

Meanwhile, supplier selection is progressing well. Well over 90 per cent of all major systems have already been selected, while all major fuselage work packages have been assigned, as well as the major work packages for the wings. In line with Airbus new supplier policy, many packages are much larger than with previous programmes. Suppliers are becoming involved earlier in the process to work in partnership with Airbus, taking on greater responsibility for the overall development.

In addition to earlier announcements, notable recent supplier awards include: L-3 Communications (flight data and cockpit voice recorders); Thales (optional head-up-display); Goodrich (air-data and ice-detection systems); Hamilton Sundstrand (ram-air-turbine emergency power system); Honeywell (3-D advanced weather radar); B/E Aerospace (modular galley system); and Diehl Aerospace (entire cabin lighting package, high-lift slat/flap control computer, and doors and slides control systems).

Need to keep in mind this aircraft was supposed to have first flight in 2012, and EIS in 2013 for the A350-900, 2014 for the A350-800, and 2015 for the A350-1000.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 998 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 10642 times:



Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
I read that as a nice OPED piece from Chicago.

But we assume that all the problems that B is having with the B787 will be outmatched by NIL problems with the A350. I for one think neither company can put out this type of NEW technology on the schedules proposed. I expect first flight on the A350 sometime in 2015-2016 because the A380 and the B787 highlight there is sales and there is reality.

And reality is that the A350 schedule is just as aggressive as the B787 as it was implemented BEFORE the B787 problems. Monkey see, Monkey do!



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8987 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 10545 times:



Quoting BillReid (Reply 5):
But we assume that all the problems that B is having with the B787 will be outmatched by NIL problems with the A350.

No one never said that...but you need to keep in mind that Airbus has had a gradual increase in the % of composites it uses, A300->A310->A330/340->A340NG->A380->A400M. Boeing went from around 9%-10% composites on the 777 to 50% on the 787, the 777 has half as much composite as the 15 year old A330.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/thezeke/structures/ce03cbc1.png

Airbus has successfully used the distributed manufacturing site supply chain since basically day one, it was fairly new to Boeing on the 787.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 5):
And reality is that the A350 schedule is just as aggressive as the B787 as it was implemented BEFORE the B787 problems

No, the A350 schedule parts allowed for double the time the 787 did in parts (e.g. certification/flight testing)

787 offered first for sale in 2004, EIS was to be 2008, 4 years, A350XWB industrial go ahead Dec 2006, EIS 2013, 7 years.

When the A350XWB was launched, we actually had a number of threads asking why it was taking Airbus so long for the XWB, and Boeing so quick on the 787. People kept on saying Airbus just did not have the technology to "catch up" with the 787, others through the 787 time scale was just too optimistic.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 10503 times:

The article shows just how slippery a slope the manufacturing of large aircraft is. To assume the 787 is now out of the woods is naive. To think that Airbus has all the right answers for CRFP manufacturing because a chart says so follows the same logic.

Both the 787 and A350 will be successful endeavors for their respective manufacturers. One number doesn't lie and that is 900+ orders. Despite all of the problems and delays there has yet to be a massive cancelling of 787 orders. That alone speaks volumes of what the airlines think this aircraft can be once it hits the line.



"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 10500 times:

I would be embarrassed to put my name to this article, there isn't anything new in it what so ever. Ms Matlack is prone to over do the obvious

Quote
"Permanent Majority?

The danger for Airbus is that further slippage on the A350 will seal Boeing's dominance in the high-volume, richly profitable market for midsize widebody jets. "Boeing may be guaranteed a permanent majority," says Doug McVitie, an analyst with Arran Aerospace in Dinan, France. Already, the Dreamliner has racked up 910 orders, almost twice the 478 logged by the A350. "

Um Ms Matlock and Mr McVitie tell us something we don't know? Plus what kind of person says "richly profitable" let alone write it? A bullsh*tter that's who.

Boeing would have to screw up big time to lose their grip in this market. 2 years behind schedule is the new "on time" in the industry. So whether it be B or A 2 yrs late nothing changes


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10440 times:

I find it hard to understand that people believe what they read. Journalists are pushed for time and they take their information from the easiest source, saves leaving the office and they can get home on time. This was obviously written with the help of Boeing and the US Trade Depts news releases.

Tatty writing and completely worthless.


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10433 times:



Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
Design freeze was met on schedule LAST year, it is the details design that is still having tweeks.

They froze the design for it having two engines, two wings, a tail, and be this big around - that sort of stuff last year. But that's not the design freeze mentioned, and Airbus itself confirms this.

"A350 progresses to design freeze", dated November 2008 (from the document you quoted from, yet you omitted that little detail).

http://www-org.airbus.com/store/mm_r...a_object_file_Airbus_Letter_EN.pdf

So I ask again, did the October design freeze occur?


User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 998 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10432 times:



Quoting CX747 (Reply 7):
To assume the 787 is now out of the woods is naive. To think that Airbus has all the right answers for CRFP manufacturing because a chart says so follows the same logic.

I agree and that is the point!

Quoting Babybus (Reply 9):
I find it hard to understand that people believe what they read. Journalists are pushed for time and they take their information from the easiest source, saves leaving the office and they can get home on time. This was obviously written with the help of Boeing and the US Trade Depts news releases.

Tatty writing and completely worthless.

Yes your allegiance is clear. But do you suppose all of us bloggers don't do the same? So I say that the new bus will be delayed by exactly the same amount as the A380 because sales is sales and they promise the world yesterday. I should know, I'm in sales!



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 753 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10391 times:



Quoting BillReid (Reply 5):
I for one think neither company can put out this type of NEW technology on the schedules proposed.

Boeings current delays on the 787 have not been caused by new technology but rather by supply chain and logistics issues - in particular the outsourcing of fully built components and assemblies to sub contractors.
By engaging major sub-contractors as full risk sharing partners Boeing have kept R&D costs down to $8B rather than $12B or so if the project had run along traditional lines such as was the case with the 777.
All this wonderful risk sharing and cost reduction came at a price - Boeing effectively ceded control of large sections of its supply chain to sub-contrators and the implications and delays are now coming back to bite them.
The timeframe from launch to EIS was only 4 years - enough of a challenge in its own right without completely changing your supply chain. All the current supply chain issues should eventually be ironed out and are unlikely to re-occur when launching future 787 derivatives.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 6):
Airbus has successfully used the distributed manufacturing site supply chain since basically day one, it was fairly new to Boeing on the 787.

 checkmark 

Airbus will probably have to contend with some challenges for the 350 but they are unlikely to be related to supply chain issues. They have also allowed themsleves far more development time than did Boeing with the 787.



Regards,
StickShaker


User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week ago) and read 10345 times:



Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
Orders canceling due to the economy

The article clearly stated that boeing is not immune to order cancellation as it has more exposure to China and India. So it is certainly not an Airbus specific issue.

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
According to the article Airbus is gaining little ground on the B787 regardless of the problems faced by Boeing

The article said no such thing, it did not even try to imply what you said. If we consider that according to the original schedule, 787 would enter service in 2008, Airbus has already gained 2 years (and counting) through a Boeing own-goal.

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
4 year delivery gap between the two plastic birds will remain in tact

Again, you mixed your opinion with their words. The article never said or implied that Boeing and Airbus will experience delays of similar durations on B787 or A350.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 11):
So I say that the new bus will be delayed by exactly the same amount as the A380

Do you have any evidence (other than "Airbus stuffed up 380 and Boeing stuffed up 787 so Airbus is bound to do it again") to back up your claim? Airbus may yet experience significant delays in the future, but don't yout think it is a bit too early to say that the A350 will be as late as A380 NOW?


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week ago) and read 10344 times:



Quoting Zeke (Reply 6):

No one never said that...but you need to keep in mind that Airbus has had a gradual increase in the % of composites it uses, A300->A310->A330/340->A340NG->A380->A400M. Boeing went from around 9%-10% composites on the 777 to 50% on the 787, the 777 has half as much composite as the 15 year old A330.

Absolutely true, but what of the past or current 787 woes are tracable to the use of composites? A failure of program management doesn't have much to do with which material you chose. You can drill holes wrong in aluminum just as you can in CFRP. Etc.

Tom.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10035 times:

Good grief, what a miserable article. It's so easy to complete shoot it to pieces.

Some quotes,


Q:The danger for Airbus is that further slippage on the A350 will seal Boeing's dominance in the high-volume, richly profitable market for midsize widebody jets.

Boeing's dominance? Of the 2 midsized widebodies currently being build and delivered the A330 clearly has the upperhand. And it will remain like that, atleast until Boeing starts producing 787s at a good rate.



Q:"Boeing may be guaranteed a permanent majority," says Doug McVitie, an analyst with Arran Aerospace in Dinan,

Doug McVitie? His name rings a bell. Have a look at his previous predictions...

Q:the Dreamliner has racked up 910 orders, almost twice the 478 logged by the A350.

True, and Airbus sold 163 A350s this year, whereas Boeing sold 93 787s. At this rate it'll take Airbus 6 years to catch up...  Yeah sure

But such savings will be much harder to achieve if Airbus has to trim production in a downturn, because fixed costs such as buildings and equipment will account for a higher percentage of total expenses.

The buildings are there already... Seriously, what's the real reason of writing these nonsense?

Q:Airbus already has said it will postpone a planned increase in production rates, and CEO Tom Enders said last month the company could take "further action if the situation deteriorates." Evolution's Cunningham thinks production cuts are inevitable, as he predicts annual aircraft deliveries worldwide will fall as much as 50% from 2009 to 2013. What's more, the dollar is now weakening again.

CUNNINGham?  biggrin  Now, I'm getting suspicious. Never mind that Airbus has delivered a record amount of aircraft this year.

Q:more than half of its A350 sales come from Middle East airlines and leasing companies, leaving it far more exposed than Boeing to a downturn in that region.

If I'm not mistaken, Boeing sold far more 787s to leasing companies than Airbus sold A350s to them. And what's wrong with selling aircraft to Middle Eastern airlines? Is their money not good enough? Last time I checked the recession hit countries like Japan and the US atleast as hard as the M.E.

Q:A slowdown could threaten orders from carriers such as Qatar Airways and Etihad Airways of Abu Dhabi, each of which has dozens of planes on order from Airbus.

How about Emirates? Besides, they've all got Boeing widebodies on order too. And not just a few. Any particular reason why the M.E. would be more at risk than another region? I think I've just read that Saoudi Arabia, is considering to reduce their daily supply of oil to the market in order to increase the price. Rest assured, these shiny new jets will be payed for... Even better,... each time you're starting your car you might be contributing.

 bigthumbsup 



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12413 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9938 times:



Quoting Ssublyme (Reply 2):
I don't put much weight on that article. The months "behind in specification" seems to result in customer requests.

But wasn't that the same reason put forth to mask the A380 CATIA debacle? I guess time will tell if history is repeating.

In any case, the trend seems to be in both A380 and A350 that Airbus doesn't anticipate customer requests very well. You would have thought this would have been one of the "lessons learned" from the A380.

I don't agree with the tone of the article. It's waaaay to early to ring the alarm bells on A350, and I think Airbus is being a lot more conservative in every way on the A350 development effort than Boeing is on 787, but I'd feel better if the design freeze didn't slip at all.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8987 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9909 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 10):
They froze the design for it having two engines, two wings, a tail, and be this big around - that sort of stuff last year. But that's not the design freeze mentioned, and Airbus itself confirms this.

Milestone M4.1 was the design freeze, it was achieved on target in July 2007. Unlike previous Airbus programs, the major systems like landing gear, APU, engines, hydraulics, electrics, pneumatics etc were frozen by 4.3, in previous designs these were frozen around 5.3. This was done as part of Power8, they have reduced their development time from 7.5 years to 6.

As a result of the design freeze you will recall they reduced the engine thrust requirements, finalized the "aero lines" etc, you will find various threads on this, and articles in flight global etc.



Quoting Khobar (Reply 10):
"A350 progresses to design freeze"

Milestone MG5 is due "4th quarter 2008", not October, Airbus is now saying this month. As far as I am aware, they completed the aerostructures work for MG5 by October.

MG5 is the DETAIL design freeze, not design freeze, the letter to Airbus customers assumes people have actually read the previous ones which reported the successful completion of the design freeze, and that the detail design was to be frozen this year. I have posted this information on a.net before.

MG5 does not mean things will not change, expect further refinements.



MG9 due 2011
MG11 due 2012
MG13 due 2013

[Edited 2008-12-17 05:03:42]


We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9837 times:

Why is it that articles such as this always look at future customer demand in growth markets such as the middle east and the far east and completely ignore what will happen in established markets such as N America Oceania and Europe?

As far as I know these markets still make for the vast majority of the airliner industry and will keep this position for some time to come.
The way things look now it seems that A and B should be more worried at what could be a considerable shrinking demand on what used to be their biggest customer base, I would be interested to know what the effect on both the 787 and 350 will be if the large EU, NAFTA and OCEANIA airlines start canceling or long time postponing new orders for these 2 birds, lord knows that a lot of them simply cannot afford them or will have a lot of troubles finding sufficient and affordable financing for them.

What will happen if DL/NW , CO, AA don't order or cancel the number of 787's they are expected/predicted to take, this will mean hundreds of frames that won't go through.
Same goes for the 350 and its customers I guess.



[edit post]
User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2222 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9715 times:



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 18):
What will happen if DL/NW , CO, AA don't order or cancel the number of 787's they are expected/predicted to take, this will mean hundreds of frames that won't go through.
Same goes for the 350 and its customers I guess.

Airlines with large 767 fleets will struggle to compete once large large 787 fleets are cruising the sky. If more and more competitors are able to significantly cut CASM their position will become uncomfortable.

This fact will create the pressure to buy comparable planes.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9672 times:

Let me see, Airbus has a bigger backlog, higher orders in 08 and higher output.

A steaming A330 line, 3 A320 lines doing 40 per month, A320NG taking shape, A380 loved by airlines and passengers and still years to fine tune the A350, that sold 500 already. The A400 is delayed but has orders for yrs in a niche without competition and the tanker has won 5 out of the 5 latest competions.

Yes, they are definately heading for trouble here.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9595 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
Let me see, Airbus has a bigger backlog, higher orders in 08 and higher output.

A steaming A330 line, 3 A320 lines doing 40 per month, A320NG taking shape, A380 loved by airlines and passengers and still years to fine tune the A350, that sold 500 already. The A400 is delayed but has orders for yrs in a niche without competition and the tanker has won 5 out of the 5 latest competions.

Yes, they are definately heading for trouble here.

LOL yes indeed - things look very bleak.  Wink



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9574 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
Let me see, Airbus has a bigger backlog, higher orders in 08 and higher output.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
3 A320 lines doing 40 per month

Unfortunately this will now only be increased to 36 frames per month.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1621 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9403 times:



Quoting BillReid (Reply 5):
And reality is that the A350 schedule is just as aggressive as the B787

Not really. The A350 schedule pretty much doubles that of the 787, so it gives Airbus room to manouver a little bit should anything pop up.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 11):
Yes your allegiance is clear.

And yours is quite clear too, by trying to pass your opinion(against the A350) as "facts" stated in the article.


User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9366 times:



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 19):
This fact will create the pressure to buy comparable planes.

I'm in now way disputing that there is pressure on them to modernize their fleet but what should be done and what is possible for them to do are 2 completely separate things.
Given the financial situation many(if not most) of the large (sadly to say mainly US) airlines are in it will remain to be seen in what amounts they will/can actually take delivery of all these "necessary" new planes.

just my  twocents 



[edit post]
25 AirNZ : Other than your own comment, I have never heard anyone, anywhere either saying or assuming any such thing so could you perhaps explain where you're a
26 Kbdude : I think the context of the article is..... that 35% of the entire A350 & 35% of the entire A380 order book come from 3 airlines within 175 miles of e
27 Manfredj : But let's look at the facts: The 787 has plenty of orders. Short of the world ending, they will always have their orders. The 350 has the rotten side
28 Keesje : I think Boeing has to act soon on the 737 (or replacement), 777 (or replacement) and 747-8i (or replacement). The A320NG, A350XWB and A380 family have
29 EPA001 : Please read again what Keesje has written. And try to put your post into that perspective. Something does not add up there! And that is the reality.
30 FrmrCAPCADET : I have wondered if Airbus is deliberately being slow on some of these final configurations. Boeing likely cant do finals on the 9 and 10 until they kn
31 DeltaL1011man : Do they need a new 737? wouldn't they just wait on Y1? is this what you mean by A320NG? IIRC the A320 is older than the 737NG. As for th 380.........
32 Prebennorholm : The headline "Can Airbus Keep Its Edge on Boeing?" is a valid question. But already in the subtitle "...but if Airbus falls further behind on its A350
33 Khobar : MG4.1 - freeze of the aircraft's performance, undertake a major design review and decide on trade-offs in the aircraft's configuration, before moving
34 Post contains links and images Keesje : Contrary to other projects Airbus is introducing A320 Enhanced phased. Roomier new cabins became optional in 2006, winglet test started 2 years ago w
35 Astuteman : Very sorry, my friend, but the A350 programme has 3 years more in which to execute a much smaller shift in both the technical and organisational para
36 Post contains images Manfredj : How can you say this? 2014 for the 350's first delivery?...that's IF everything goes right. So you have a bunch of backlog 787's being delivered in t
37 Post contains links Zeke : Which part of that slide 12 in my reply 17 that you cannot see the CLEAR statement by EADS that design freeze was achieved in 2007 ? The detailed des
38 Acheron : IF the 787 doesn't hit any more snags during the test flights phase and with the interiors, IF the aren't anymore delays related to production and su
39 Revelation : I'm far from an Airbus fanboy, but that's just not how it works! In the time frame Airbus was making the decision on the A380, they had solid sales a
40 EPA001 : EIS is still planned for 2013. Since the A350-XWB has been launched, it has not changed. So that is 3 years after the B787 enters service. On the tot
41 Keesje : Yes it does. A330 orders passed 1000 recently. Backlog more then 400. Orders booming after 2004. The A380 has a good list of top carriers, meets it p
42 Revelation : I don't think we'll ever know the truth about that. The 250 number was based on a lot of assumptions about how much the planes would sell for, how fa
43 APChigoSea : Airbus is obviously not in trouble. I do believe that both Boeing and Airbus face risks based on the ability of airlines and leasing companies being a
44 EPA001 : Good post APChigoSea, I fully agree. Actually, the order total for the A350-XWB is almost at 500 fixed orders already. Compared to the B787 it reache
45 Ruscoe : One has to be carefull with the Airbus backlog in $ terms. If you analyze the figures it would appear that Airbus, use book prices to value their bac
46 Revelation : I think both vendors do not want to reveal actual prices (ever!) so they both use book values.
47 Astuteman : Perhaps I shouldn't have laughed my friend, but that's an occupational hazard of a fundamentally cheerful outlook on life, I guess.. I can say this b
48 Rheinbote : The world ain't black and white. It's a bit of everything. Part of the problems with outsourcing is based on the fact that the supply chain is not ye
49 Rheinwaldner : I agree. It is much more comfortable to be the second. The 787 was initially advertised as large improvement over the 767/A330. Likewise the A350 cla
50 Ruscoe : Just as a matter of interest at the end of 2007, Airbus had a backlog of 3421 units which they valued at 342,100 million or a neat (too neat) $100 per
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