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Flybe Pilot Cannot Make Landing, Returns  
User currently offlineGolftango From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15572 times:

It appears that a Flybe. pilot in a Q400 was not rated to land in foggy conditions at CDG so had to return to CWL. This is from Dailymail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ilot-tells-stunned-passengers.html

Quoting dailymail.co.uk:
Their captain had more than 30 years of flying experience - but he had only recently started to pilot the type of plane they were in.

This meant he had not passed the necessary low-visibility training. After making the unsettling announcement at the end of the 300 mile journey, the captain flew back to Cardiff airport instead.

What if it was foggy in CWL?   

[Edited 2008-12-17 15:06:20]

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeing727 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15496 times:

High minimum captains on new equipment are restricted to higher ceiling and visibility requirements compared to someone who has been on the airplane for more than 100 hrs (I am not expecting the public nor the press to understand this).

Boeing727


User currently offlineAFGMEL From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15371 times:

The pilot did the right thing and would have had the book thrown at him if he did land. What I am curious about is whether or not the fog was forecast at CDG and if so, they shouldn't have departed.


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User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4980 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15075 times:

At my airline, a new Captain must have 300 hours PIC on type before he can perform anything below an RVR 2600 landing or takeoff. An experienced Captain, but new on type must have 100 PIC on type before he can perform a CAT II or CAT III landing.

Sounds like he did the right thing. They may well have sent the flight knowing the restrictions, with return fuel and reserves on the hope it was not as bad as forecast ... it happens.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineCaaardiff From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14852 times:

This is not such a major issue. There are reasons why flights divert back to their origins.
a LH flight trying to get into BRS recently, couldn't get in due to fog, diverted back to FRA (I think). With a number of closeby airports still open!


User currently offlineAs739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6140 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14819 times:

So? I seriously don't see the point in writing and article on this.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineGolftango From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14719 times:



Quoting As739x (Reply 5):
So? I seriously don't see the point in writing and article on this.

Neither do I, I was just pointing out the article to a.net for some conversation. Cheers!


User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 724 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14669 times:

If you fly to the some of the airports that OO flies to you can see this happen a lot. The other part people forget about is that the weather at an airport can change a lot from the time a plane takes off to the time it approaches the destination. A good example is today in SGU, a flight took off from SLC and the weather in SGU was just cloudy otherwise no problem with landing but about 15 minutes before they were supposed to land the weather let loose and they had to divert to CDC because it was snowing to hard.

User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14655 times:



Quoting Golftango (Thread starter):
What if it was foggy in CWL?

He would've gone to his second alternate.


User currently onlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2284 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14554 times:

Flymaybe becomes Landmaybe?  duck 

What's so unusual about this story is the announcement the captain made. I believe that most captains in this situation would rather say something general like, "Due to fog at the airport, we need to turn back." It's more unusual when a captain says that he's not qualified to land the plane.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 14488 times:



Quoting Golftango (Thread starter):
This meant he had not passed the necessary low-visibility training.

He probably had passed it, but as a new captain he was restricted to higher minimums.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlybehubby From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14121 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
Flymaybe becomes Landmaybe?

Classic!

When I first read this I assumed that it was an ERJ pilot thats gone over to the Q400. Quite interesting that (if they got it right) its a Q300 pilot now on the Q400. Is this somebody from Air Southwest?



Helping to turn Europe orange.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6029 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14076 times:



Quoting DurangoMac (Reply 7):
A good example is today in SGU, a flight took off from SLC and the weather in SGU was just cloudy otherwise no problem with landing but about 15 minutes before they were supposed to land the weather let loose and they had to divert to CDC because it was snowing to hard.

SGU has higher than standard minimums to begin with due to the terrain and non-precision approach. There is no ILS for SGU.



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User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3761 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13913 times:



Quoting As739x (Reply 5):
So? I seriously don't see the point in writing and article on this.

Honestly.

You're a crappy columnist who works for the local rag and don't have anyhting flashy to write about? Head to the local airport for your load near catastrophes threatening the lives of hundreds:

"Dangerous missed approach due to weather! 50 pax terrorized while wondering whether they will be able to land before fuel runs out!"

The next one might be:
"IFE failure on a transatlantic flight! Hundreds feared dead from boredom!"



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineMilesDependent From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13643 times:

Slightly OT...

Remember all those comments about how the first A380 SIN-NRT flight diverted to NGO, and people were saying they couldn't believe the SQ plane didn't land, when all the other planes did. I am now thinking this is the reason...


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 13391 times:

I think the article is well-written as the last paragraph mentions:

Quote:
Independent aviation consultant Simon Gill said: 'His only mistake was announcing his lack of qualification. If he had just said it was not safe to land because of adverse weather conditions, nobody would have minded.'

And I completely agree here. It is extremely bad PR to mention over the intercom that you're not qualified enough. I think it's completely understandable that passengers are scared. You cannot expect from ordinary pax to know all the ins and outs about pilot licenses.


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12456 times:



Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 2):
The pilot did the right thing and would have had the book thrown at him if he did land

Agreed but

Quoting Joost (Reply 15):
extremely bad PR to mention over the intercom that you're not qualified enough

He should have simply stated that the conditions had deteriorated at Paris to below safety parameters for their flight, and therefore they were returning to their point of origin.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineCumulus From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1402 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10759 times:



Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 2):
What I am curious about is whether or not the fog was forecast at CDG and if so, they shouldn't have departed.

I flew SOU-JER last June, a 35 minute flight. METAR gave CAVOK and a RVR of 1000m+ on departure. By the time we got there, couldn't see shit and had to divert to Dinard. Even the BA 737s, Squeezyjet and BMI's were diverting.

Anything can happen and very quickly, the weather is a fickle thing!



What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
User currently offlineCwldude From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 691 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9283 times:

The flight had already been delayed quite badly due to the weather at CDG... I can understand that if I had a pilot say he wasn't qualified enough to land, it'd be an extremely uncomfortable hour back to CWL!


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User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9124 times:

Sounds like this pilot made all the right decisions as a result of sound aviation training. Yet so many people are criticizing him for the content of the announcement he made. Perhaps there is some training for tact & gentle diplomacy when talking to an airborne group with a high collective nervousness (any group of airline travelers), but to me, this pilot made a great call and exercised the correct action. We're grasping at straws when trying to point out flaws.


The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8925 times:
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Quoting Cwldude (Reply 18):
I can understand that if I had a pilot say he wasn't qualified enough to land

......in those particular weather conditions experienced at CDG......

I'm sure he would have made a reasonable announcement on the matter anyway. I'm sure he didn't just tell the cabin that he wasn't qualified to land the plane and leave it at that.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineSkidmarks From UK - England, joined Dec 2004, 7121 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8611 times:



Quoting Flybehubby (Reply 11):
Is this somebody from Air Southwest?

Probably an ex-BA Connect pilot, taken on when they dumped the rest of us. Big grin

Andy  old 



Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
User currently offlineFlyingfox27 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8570 times:

The passengers would not be so grumpy about it had the pilot attempted and they crashed and got killed...

But at least the pilot was honest rather than the *dont tell the passengers anything they will be fine about it* attitude.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8317 times:

What is surprising is that they actually left CWL ... I can't believe they didn't know when leaving CWL that there was some fog at CDG :
CWL-CDG is 497km/309mi only ... which is barely a 45/50 minutes flights. According to the passengers, the pilot made his announcement about 20 minutes before landing. I can tell you that on Tuesday, CDG was in a thick fog during hours, from the early morning to mid-afternoon.
They couldn't ignore the weather conditions at CDG when they left CWL or, even worse, they didn't check the weather conditions at CDG before departing CWL.


User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7420 times:
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Yeah well weather minimums can change in that time. Just cause it's foggy to you does not mean it's not CAT I.

Just yesterday morning we had a big snowstorm in YYZ, and when I asked a WJ pilot what cat ILS they had flown it was cat !, but just an hour later it was down to CATII (when I was speaking to him)



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25 Jimbo27L : Surely you're all missing the point here. Passengers paid to land in CDG, the flight should not have been operated by a crew who cannot land the aircr
26 Larshjort : So how are the pilots going to get hours on the type if they are not allowed to fly? /Lars
27 LongHauler : Respectfully, I think YOU have missed the point. As much as we would like to think otherwise, we are always and always will be at the mercy of the we
28 Jimbo27L : As a customer this is none of my concern. I assume that the crew of any aircraft I am flying on has the training and the necessary experience to be a
29 Jimbo27L : And why would a pilot who is not qualified to land in low visibility conditions be permitted to take off in similar conditions from Cardiff? I'm not
30 OPNLguy : Regs concerning newly upgraded PICs and higher than normal landing minimums have been the norm for eons, and I have a hard time believing that any PI
31 LongHauler : That is a reasonable question, and a little hard to explain, but I will try. As you are probably aware, there are a lot of variables in the weather m
32 Futurestar68 : Let me take the opportunity and give you a short information about instrument flying... There is only one approach, that allows you to land the aircr
33 Mir : You assume incorrectly. There are high-minimums crews out there. There have to be, because without them airlines would have nobody to replace the cre
34 Francoflier : I agree that it mght have been a bit of a 'clumsy' PA on the behalf of the pilot, although he was merely trying to tell the truth instead of BSing th
35 OPNLguy : I don't know that it was necessarily "clumsy" per se, but I do think the whole episode likely revolved around his intended use of the word "qualifica
36 Maxpower1954 : Okay, I've resisted posting to this long enough! As a 30 plus year airline pilot, from commuter captain in DeHavilland Herons and DC-3s to 767s with a
37 Jkudall : CWL wouldn't have been a legal alternate to begin with if it was forecasted to be foggy (which I assume it wasn't). So they would have filed to and f
38 DingDong : Well, yes, kind of... Flights are usually planned far in advance, and not usually planned around a particular person's certified capabilities. In oth
39 KiwiinOz : Really? I think most travellers would find this a very interesting story. It may not be noteworthy from an aviation point of view, but from a travell
40 Francoflier : If your business is not an airline, then: Your business does not have a fraction of the safety standard requirements airlines have. Your business doe
41 Signol : In terms of the aborted landing and diversion, the pilot made exactly the correct choice. However, as says, the pilot made a big mistake in his announ
42 Mir : Alright, then. You have a plane that needs to get to CDG, where the weather is foggy, but you only have a high-minimums crew. What do you do? And don
43 Jimbo27L : Guys, I appreciate this is an aviation site, but please try and have some perspective from the people who pay your wages - i.e. the customer. If airl
44 RedChili : Then I suggest that you take the train, because all airlines do this. All of them! On second thought, maybe you should take a look at list of airline
45 Goldenshield : So, you wouldn't fly them, even if the weather was 10 and clear, just because this pilot had higher minimums than others at the time? I'm sorry, but
46 Jimbo27L : Ah, apologies, my mistake. I seem to have overlooked the fact the the primary objective of schedule commercial flights is to train pilots.... My logi
47 Goldenshield : I never said that it's used to train pilots. It's used to get them EXPERIENCE. And my logic is of an aviation PROFESSIONAL. That's right. I make deci
48 Signol : If you actually read the conditions of carriage, the only thing the airline is obliged to do is to get you from point a to point b. There is no time
49 SCCutler : I must say, this business of recharacterizing the pilot's not yet having achieved the requisite operating experience for the approach as being "unqual
50 Kiwiinoz : I don't even know what that means Which is kind of my point. Any good business, (including airlines), will tell you that they are only as good as the
51 Mir : Good luck flying, then. Everyone has these sort of pilots. It's not because they haven't had the training - they have, and they've passed it. It's no
52 JezUK77 : I apologise if has been asked but what about diverting to Orly, Le Bourget. Reims or even Beauvais? Surely there are other airports near to Paris he c
53 OPNLguy : I think that we all are, but, withall due respect, that perspective of yours is a tad skewed, and otherwise overly influenced by some sensationalist
54 RussianJet : Well, pilots aren't born knowing how to fly in any given situation. How else are you proposing that the required number of pilots reach the required
55 OPNLguy : What's missing is an awareness level of all the things that factor into alternate selection, and which ones to use if an actual diversion becomes nec
56 OPNLguy : I almost hate to tell him that PICs and F/Os swap tasks on alternate legs, with one pilot flying, and the other monitoring and communicating. Yes, (g
57 Jkudall : This wasn't matter of the pilot not "knowing" how to land an airplane in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC). I am sure the pilot could have f
58 FlyDeltaJets87 : My dad was on a military flight from Rota, Spain to Lajes Air Force Base in the Azores. As they made their approach into Lajes, the pilot decided the
59 RussianJet : Well obviously, why didn't you bother to check what specific post I was responding to there before posting? I was responding to the fact that someone
60 Post contains images Hywel : I've now spoken to someone who was on the actual flight (a friend of someone in our family), and the pilot's PA announcement didn't even mention the p
61 OPNLguy : Yep, sure seems like it.. Oh, I hope so.
62 LongHauler : Most major airlines, during the captain upgrade process, train new captains on proper PA etiquette. You know the deal ... its not "foggy" its "misty"
63 B707forever : Gives me pause for the 'cause to wonder what kind of weather forecasting Flybe is plugged into. On something like a 40 minute trip over the channel th
64 OPNLguy : It's a moot point: there are forecasts, and there is "reality" at the actual ETA... Again, the generalities of the term "foggy" when the issue are th
65 LHRspotter : There was a more thorough reply above but you are also missing the fact that when the flight diverted back it was nowhere near Paris. Perhaps the PIC
66 Mir : Of course they knew it was going to be foggy. The question is not "is Paris foggy" but "is Paris below minimums". Pilots can land in fog, as long as
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