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Why In Earth Is AF/KL Got A Higher Rev Than LH Grp  
User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

OK, AF/KL are the biggest airline in Europe in terms of revenue (they were the no 1 in the world in terms of rev before the merger of DL/NW) but LH has a bigger fleet and for more bigger aircraft....so why does AF/KL still bigger in terms of rev.....also I would say the perception of LH and even LX is higher than AF and especially KL...so people would be more likely to spend more money on a LH/LX flight than AF/KL
(if someone is going to point out AF/KL have far higher yields cos they operate smaller....then I have my revenue formulae all wrong for airliners a long with FR U2 and the like...)

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5210 times:

Does LH group have more bigger aircraft / ASK's ?

User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5117 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Does LH group have more bigger aircraft / ASK's ?

Well just by quicly browsing wikipedia....AF/KL have around 450 and around LH 550....more complicated in the breakdown of W/B and N/B but just look how many more short hail ops LH operates...also KLM city hopper must be small in revs with all their fokkers and regional destinations...


User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4922 times:

Some people actually

Quoting WAC (Thread starter):
also I would say the perception of LH and even LX is higher than AF and especially KL...so people would be more likely to spend more money on a LH/LX flight than AF/KL

I dont totally agree with that, but that is not the point.

AF/KL have some pretty exclusive destinations (former african and caribbean colonies), and in some cases, it is either them or your choice of a somewhat less reliable or desireable carrier between those locations and Europe.

LH tends to serve well established markets, where there is fairly equal compitition. There were not so many German colonies in africa and south america to be served. There are alot of popular tourist/leisure/business destinations, but not so many exclusive destinations.

If you ever need to get to some of the countries in Africa, you may have a choice of Air Gambia (I am sure they are nice, but...) or Air France, I may stick with AF, due to better infrastructure (If you have ever had to wait for a new tire for your airlines only airworthy 767 to be delivered in the middle of Africa, you will know what I mean). AF knows this, and they charge accordigly.
CDG-DKR $1231.38 Y 11 jan to 18 jan 09
CDG-JFK $ 610.17 Y 11 jan to 18 jan 09
AF serves their main markets well, but they make pretty good fares on their African and Asian service.

tom



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3591 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4854 times:

Available seat kilometers (ASK) in November 2008

AF/KL (even with a 3 day strike in November): 20,385,000,000

LH/Swiss: 15,561,000,000

So in answer to your question, AF/KL flies one third more seat kilometers per day than the LH group.


User currently offlineMindscape From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4678 times:



Quoting WAC (Thread starter):
also I would say the perception of LH and even LX is higher than AF and especially KL...so people would be more likely to spend more money on a LH/LX flight than AF/KL

Mind you to elaborate your point ?
Do you mean :
1) LX benefits from the Swiss international image and all the high end products and services (Rolex, secretive and exclusive banking industry, etc.);
2) LH benefits from the so called "German Engineered" reputation;
3) AF is stained with the worldwide anti-French bashing for being arrogant and unfriendly and always on strike;
4) KL without international First class is transporting people in some places on earth where even the so called "premium carriers" won't dare to go because of the low yields ?


User currently offlineFlyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 577 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4622 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 4):
Available seat kilometers (ASK) in November 2008

AF/KL (even with a 3 day strike in November): 20,385,000,000

LH/Swiss: 15,561,000,000

So in answer to your question, AF/KL flies one third more seat kilometers per day than the LH group.

Obviously here is the explanation. Everything else (exclusive destination and such) may have some impact but secondary.

regards

Flyglobal


User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4517 times:

Well,
for years AF and KLM have been profitable, remember SWISS was in serious debt a few years ago before LH took over...So I guess they are still filling up the holes...

Also the argument of bigger aircaft means nothing concerning profit, even then I think AF-KL have more wide body aircrafts.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4362 times:



Quoting SWISSER (Reply 7):
for years AF and KLM have been profitable, remember SWISS was in serious debt a few years ago before LH took over...So I guess they are still filling up the holes...

No, there are no holes to fill up anymore. In 2007/2008 SWISS was one of the most profitable legacy airlines in Europe and contributed about 1/5 to LH's profit.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4114 times:

LH and AF were about similar sized. KLM & SR not.

User currently offlineBoogyjay From France, joined May 2005, 490 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3912 times:



Quoting WAC (Thread starter):
OK, AF/KL are the biggest airline in Europe in terms of revenue (they were the no 1 in the world in terms of rev before the merger of DL/NW) but LH has a bigger fleet and for more bigger aircraft....so why does AF/KL still bigger in terms of rev...

First, as stated by DLPMMM, it depends on what you look at. AF / KL is bigger in some ways, and LH in some others.

Secondly, bigger is not always better.
Stronger is IMO more important than bigger. Lots of people here tend to think that LH getting LX, SN, OS, SK, BD, LH Italia and blablabla make them the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It's indeed good to expand, but being the "biggest" must not be the objective as it does not necessarily protect you (see e.g. GM or Lehman Brothers or whatever...).

I don't know much about LH network, however, as explained by others, AF have a pretty much well balanced network that protect them.
- Recession in US ? AF's network in Africa can help taking the hit.
- Development of TGV (HST) network in Europe ? AF / KL concentrate on an expanding South American market.
- SARS appears in Asia ? The COI market does not care.
- Heavy LCC competition in Europe ? AF's middle east network has some strong spots...

These are just some bold theoretical examples not to be taken literally, they're just here to draw a general picture of how I see AF's network.

Cheers.


User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3842 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 4):
Available seat kilometers (ASK) in November 2008

AF/KL (even with a 3 day strike in November): 20,385,000,000

LH/Swiss: 15,561,000,000

So in answer to your question, AF/KL flies one third more seat kilometers per day than the LH group.

Yea that s the answer thanks!

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 5):
1) LX benefits from the Swiss international image and all the high end products and services (Rolex, secretive and exclusive banking industry, etc.);
2) LH benefits from the so called "German Engineered" reputation;
3) AF is stained with the worldwide anti-French bashing for being arrogant and unfriendly and always on strike;
4) KL without international First class is transporting people in some places on earth where even the so called "premium carriers" won't dare to go because of the low yields ?

1. Yea
2, Yea and their first class terminal in FRA
3. Yes to the strikes no to the anti french thing....more to do with CDG hub,,,
4. KLM having weak products i.e. their seat in all classes only recently got what a premier European airline should have.


User currently offlineMindscape From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3542 times:



Quoting WAC (Reply 11):
1. Yea
2, Yea and their first class terminal in FRA
3. Yes to the strikes no to the anti french thing....more to do with CDG hub,,,
4. KLM having weak products i.e. their seat in all classes only recently got what a premier European airline should have.

Well if you are picky with KL seats, why aren't you also picky with LH first class seats?
KL has always had great Y product featuring AVOD PTV well before LH which has just recently introduced PTV in Y...
Don't get me wrong, LH/LX is a great airline, and so is AF/KL.
LH and AF are fierce competitors but have high opinion of each others. Quality perceptions of each airlines is one's opinion and cannot explain the revenue that each airlines is making.


User currently offlineWAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3436 times:



Quoting Mindscape (Reply 12):
Well if you are picky with KL seats, why aren't you also picky with LH first class seats?
KL has always had great Y product featuring AVOD PTV well before LH which has just recently introduced PTV in Y...
Don't get me wrong, LH/LX is a great airline, and so is AF/KL.
LH and AF are fierce competitors but have high opinion of each others. Quality perceptions of each airlines is one's opinion and cannot explain the revenue that each airlines is making.

I love KLm products intra Europe and short haul..I prefer AF over KL for long haul and LH for that matter. Last time I flew KL long haul I thought the product was outdated but that was 3 years ago...also KL is only a 3 star airline according to Skytrack while AF/KL/LX are 4 although I think they underrated KL's short haul ops...


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