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OAG: NW/DL Drops KIX-SPN  
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7191 posts, RR: 13
Posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

Service ends in March for Osaka-Saipan. This leaves KIX-GUM and KIX-HNL for NW. KIX has now lost KIX-TPE, KIX-DTW, KIX-SPN, and KIX-NRT was loaded for sale and then deleted a few weeks later having never flown.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

KIX-SPN is a non-core route, even not surprising to see it go now that DTW-KIX is gone.

Looks like DL/NW wants to get out of KIX.

DTW-KIX may have a chance of being restored whenever the 787's arrive.


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3815 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
Looks like DL/NW wants to get out of KIX.

Would the sky-high leases there be the primary reason?



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

While I know the costs of operating at Osaka are tremendous, it still feels somewhat odd: with this immense new Pacific network, the only way now to get to Japan's 2nd most flown city on Delta is via HNL only? Maybe they are thinking of SEA or another gateway?


Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3769 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 2):


Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
Looks like DL/NW wants to get out of KIX.

Would the sky-high leases there be the primary reason?

Sky high costs coupled with mediocre loads and yields make it kind of hard there - especially with none of the connecting traffic that makes NRT such a sure thing.

KIX might be the wealthiest area of Japan, but KIX has just a mother of a time maintaining service - too bad too - a truly magnificent airport.

They seem committed to NGO, which makes sense, given their presence in DTW and the connections there. As for new routes to KIX, maybe when the market turns around and the 787s arrive.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3750 times:



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
KIX might be the wealthiest area of Japan, but KIX has just a mother of a time maintaining service - too bad too - a truly magnificent airport.

Japan has invested a huge amount of money in infrastructure with little consideration for the economics of the markets they expect to be served by those airports.

Perhaps the light will go off and someone will realize the Japanese taxpayer can take it somewhat in the shorts and reduce costs at KIX and other high cost airports to manageable levels or those airports will lose virtually all service and the cost will be much higher.

Airline can vote and they are clearly saying that KIX is a financial disaster.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7191 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3682 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
Looks like DL/NW wants to get out of KIX.

That is the impression.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 2):
Would the sky-high leases there be the primary reason?

Cutting flights rarely helps with high leases. You want to maximize use of the leased facilities.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
They seem committed to NGO

Looking at NWA.com, it appears this flight is no longer daily after March or so. It appears to be 5/week now.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3626 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 6):
Looking at NWA.com, it appears this flight is no longer daily after March or so. It appears to be 5/week now.

I just checked NWA.com for April. It shows DTW-NGO at daily. But...if it ends up being true, then it would support the rumor floating around that JL is looking to start NGO-ORD.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
KIX might be the wealthiest area of Japan,

I didn't know this? Wealthiest by income? Wealthiest by investment?



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

The schedule beyond March is not yet firm. Its still being reworked and in many instances is reverting to the default schedule. Many changes still being worked on post-merger and looking at demand & capacity projections going into 2009

User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3396 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 7):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
KIX might be the wealthiest area of Japan,

I didn't know this? Wealthiest by income? Wealthiest by investment?

I have read greater Osaka prefecture has the highest per capita economic output and income of any similar region in Japan... though with things like that, who knows?



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days ago) and read 3166 times:

Hopefully DTW-KIX will be back. They need the right aircraft. I think that DL should reinstate NRT-KIX. This will connect passengers to the vast network at NRT. But even with just HNL, KIX passengers can transfer to flights bound for almost as many US destinations as NRT has. The downside is that you have to have a 6 hour layover. But 6 hours in Hawaii is not as bad as 6 hours at NRT. At least you could go outside and maybe go to a beach for a few hours.

I think DL is dedicated to NGO because of the contracts that will be held over. Besides Toyota, there are maybe 6 or 7 other large corporations that are moving people between the US and Nagoya on a regular basis. I know Boeing and the Japanese partners have commonly used NW even though it is via NRT. (one boeing person told me she thought it was funny to fly and airbus to work in Japan on a Boeing aircraft.)

One other factor is that NGO is cheap. It has the lowest landing fees of a major airport in Japan. It is 1.5 hours to Tokyo and 1.3 hours to Kyoto by Meitetsu and Shinkansen from NGO. I don't think we will see much more expansion at NGO though it has been rumored for a long time that NGO management would like to have a flight to SEA or LAX. We lost UA's SFO flight which was nice, but was virtually empty on a regular basis. One aircraft smaller and to LAX would be perfect. DTW is NGO's sister city for cars, LAX is the sister city for Northern American HQs for many Japanese companies. (Los Angeles is actually Nagoya's sister city. Detroit is not.)



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7191 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3120 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 7):
I just checked NWA.com for April. It shows DTW-NGO at daily.

I see non no-stop on April 8th for example.


User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3091 times:

Does this spell the end of NW/DL service to KIX?


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

I can't find non-stop flights between KIX and SPN anymore once NW drops. Maybe Asiana will be the only carrier if OZ decide to keep 3/w nonstop flights. (currently loaded only until March.)

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3066 times:



Quoting Evan767 (Reply 12):
Does this spell the end of NW/DL service to KIX?

Nope still have HNL flights(and GUM maybe?)



yep.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2970 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 11):
I see non no-stop on April 8th for example.

When I put in April 8 into the Time table search it comes up as daily but he ya never know. Maybe DL is pulling down Japan again! Are they going to focus on China, Korea and Tokyo only now?

What does OAG say?

Here is my prediction (anger):
DL pulls NRT-MNL
DL pulls DTW-NGO
JL starts NGO-ORD and captures Toyota Contract.
DL reduces Japan to Tokyo with the jumper flight to NGO via 757 continuing to SPN and GUM. But will eventually cut those as well.
DL starts DTW-ICN
DL starts DTW-HKG
DL pulls NRT-ICN
DL pulls NRT-HKG
New aircraft come in. DL makes all Japan non-Tokyo flights depart from SLC, SEA or LAX.

As a result DL will effectively deconstructed all that made NW an appealing carrier for us living outside of Tokyo. I don't mind flying via Tokyo on my way to the US but on the return I prefer doing my transfers in the US. I like being conscious when I have to change planes.

I talked about this with my wife. She said that if DL pulls out and JL comes in with non-stop to the midwest, we will start flying JL regardless if we can go non-stop to MSP from NRT. The return would not be our choice.

The current system gives us multiple ways of getting home. I know a lot of people in this region who would be pissed if DL cut the flight. Cut the 15th largest economy in the world? Jeez.. Cut the home to the number 1 car producer in the world! Smart. Cut one of the largest aerospace locations in the world? logical. Cut one the only region in Japan that has seen continuous growth even in the economic downturn? Makes perfect sense.

ktachya...any news at the airport?



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineLegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2967 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 15):
New aircraft come in. DL makes all Japan non-Tokyo flights depart from SLC, SEA or LAX.

Is SFO going? NW 27/28



John@SFO
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2948 times:



Quoting Legacyins (Reply 16):
Is SFO going? NW 27/28

No. I am saying that I think DL is going to build up Asia all from the major NW locations and DL locations. Those are SEA, SLC and LAX. SEA was an NW HUB and then became a Major Focus with International service to LHR, AMS, NRT and PEK (some have been cut or postponed already).
LAX will have NRT and SYD service.

I will calm a little and say this. DL will cut non-stop Midwest to KIX and NGO. Instead they will bring back LAX-KIX and LAX-NGO. But with limited frequency. As a result, Toyota will drop them and move their contract to someone who can give them convenient and efficient service to the Midwest.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2936 times:

KIX-NRT appears to be loaded once again.

User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7191 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2888 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 15):
DL pulls NRT-MNL



Quoting Centrair (Reply 15):
DL pulls NRT-ICN
DL pulls NRT-HKG

Trouble is that if they pull the Asia spokes from the NRT hub then the West Coast flights to NRT will get a lot worse.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 12):
Does this spell the end of NW/DL service to KIX?

See OP.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2867 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 15):

sorry but the intra-asia flight are low yielding and they are cutting the fat to make things work



yep.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2785 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 20):
sorry but the intra-asia flight are low yielding and they are cutting the fat to make things work

Intra-Asia across the board is not low-yielding. The beach markets are though, specifically GUM & SPN.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2779 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 21):
Intra-Asia across the board is not low-yielding. The beach markets are though, specifically GUM & SPN.

For DL the intra-Asia opps are.
Glen H. said why in the investers day stuff(not sure if its still on Delta.com or not but A.net had a loooong thread about it) This is why they are reducing flights and also going to smaller planes. They believe it has the chance to make money but I have a feeling once they really look at it later in 09 they will see the UA way is the better way to go.  Wink



yep.
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2779 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 20):

Quoting Centrair (Reply 15):

sorry but the intra-asia flight are low yielding and they are cutting the fat to make things work

No, they are not low-yielding.

And I bet DL/NW makes a lot more money on them then most of their trans-Pacific flights: 15 to 25% the stage length, probably around 50-65% the fare. You can do the math.



a.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2760 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):

before you post back with some other comment.

here
http://www.delta.com/about_delta/investor_relations/webcasts/index.jsp
there is think for it. If you disagree with what he says then go to contact us and let them know.



yep.
25 MAH4546 : As typical, you take one sentence and turn it into something much more than it is. There's plenty of low-yielding traffic to two markets in particula
26 Centrair : InterAsia I can understand. It is the Japan flights that I don't understand. I figure there are several reasons for this. 1) They want to eventually
27 PSU.DTW.SCE : A significant amount of NW's 744 Heavy Mx occurs in MNL, so it will likely continue to receive 744 service.
28 DeltaL1011man : Well.........if they are getting them then i take it as low yielding. Plus if you listen he will not have the "new" NRT hub done till June next year.
29 DeltaL1011man : SIN also right? Also isn''t MNL a cargo "gold mine"? With what aircraft? The 777s are going to be "full" with all the new adds the 744s are A) to muc
30 PSU.DTW.SCE : Once again, not quite...... True, NW did do a significant amount of business with consolidators, primarily for Asian tour groups. DTW-NGO & DTW-KIX a
31 DeltaL1011man : I agree. Id say an A332 or 763 will be more likely. At least on the days when they have both ATL and DTW flights.
32 NWAESC : Wrong. You beat me to it...
33 Burnsie28 : Whats next? DL dropping Asia all together....
34 Transpac787 : Yes. They are adding the following: ATL-NRT 2nd flight JFK-NRT SLC-NRT NRT-SGN NRT-KIX DTW-PVG And they are dropping the following: KIX-SPN DTW-KIX-T
35 Ktachiya : No, we haven't heard anything about it yet. This is just my personal speculation but I am expecting DL at least to change NGO service somehow. I am g
36 RwSEA : Exactly. NW gets low yields compared to the Japanese carriers, but the yields are still higher per mile than they get in the domestic market. One cou
37 DeltaL1011man : It hasn't stopped yet (IIRC) They may keep CAN open and they may sit on it for a while. ATL/DTW-PVG are both down to 4x weekly plus the large number
38 Post contains links Enilria : More Asia cuts announced by Delta. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...e?AID=/20081222/BIZ/812220335/1001
39 Burnsie28 : This dissapeared from the schedules.
40 Centrair : After reading the article from the Detroit press, it seems that DL is just minimizing costs to keep them from going BK again. By reducing DTW-NGO and
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