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How Long Will The DL DC-9 Last?  
User currently offlineBoeingdotcom From Singapore, joined Nov 2008, 89 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10585 times:

Some A.net members said that it should be gone by now. While others say that it might say for another year. Yet, Delta has repainted its first DC-9 from NW to DL colours. What does this mean? DL is keeping the DC-9 longer? Didn't some A.net members say that DL is getting rid of the DC-9 ASAP as they are in-efficient? So, the new DL colours on the DC-9, means that they will stay for awhile longer. Now, why did DL wants to keep the DC-9 for additional years? Isn't the DC-9 in-efficient? And is it because they can't find the right aircraft to replace? Or is it due to the recession, they didn't want to replace it ASAP? Or because DL figured out a way to make the DC-9 profitable. Like on certain routes, with the fare they set, they could have some revenue?

If its the recession, then

Using DC-9- in-efficient cost more on fuel, maintainces than efficient planes.
Or
Keeping DC-9 as US is on recession, postpone buying new planes.

This two doesn't add up... Don't you think?

Benjamin

[Edited 2008-12-21 09:20:13]


Never forget to be yourself.
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10587 times:



Quoting Boeingdotcom (Thread starter):
Using DC-9- in-efficient cost more on fuel, maintainces than efficient planes.
Or
Keeping DC-9 as US is on recession, postpone buying new planes.

I would think that the DC-9 is more inefficient in fuel burn than in mx and therefore it makes sense to keep them a little bit longer as the fuel price is falling. Keep in mind that Douglas planes are very simple and robust. Binding capital in planes with lower operation, but higher capital costs on the other hand is not very appealing these days.

It's just speculation, though.

Cheers

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10670 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10507 times:

Remember that all those DC-9's are paid for. You can pay for alot of fuel for what it would cost to replace them. I'm thinking that they would be adequate replacements on some of the RJ routes. They might be around long enough until a replacement came along, such as the C-Series or enough E-195's.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6134 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10488 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 2):
Remember that all those DC-9's are paid for.

From what I understand NW mortgaged these aircraft for around 200 Mil in the 3rd quarter just before merging with DL.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineAAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10382 times:



Quoting Boeingdotcom (Thread starter):

I wonder if people will still talk about the NW/DL DC-9 every week once they are finally gone  scratchchin 

New paint really does not mean anything. As I have said before, UA painted a 733 right after the new livery came out and within 6 months it was sitting in the desert.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing-727-232-Adv/1150989/L/


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10370 times:

I think they will slowly be retired as they come up for expensive checks or start needing more maintenance. Other then that they will probably keep the DC-9 until there is a good replacement or until Boeing comes out with the Y1 and DL can place a huge order.

What seems more likely is an order of C-Series or more E190s etc. Something that size would be a good replacement for the DC-9, but it would take a while to replace all those DC-9s.

Having this massive of a fleet will allow DL to consolidate a lot of flights and open some new ones. Use a DC-9 to replace a couple CRJ flights and move those CRJ flights to open new routes to feed into more flights.


User currently offlineFlyingClrs727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 738 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10370 times:

How long could they last if they were reengined?

User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10187 times:



Quoting Boeingdotcom (Thread starter):
cost more on fuel, maintainces than efficient planes.

Well, Ben...I guess you get to make an executive decision....
Pay more for fuel on an old airplane thats paid for OR make payments on a new fuel effecient plane.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3108 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9998 times:



Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 6):
How long could they last if they were reengined?

I've often wondered that. Could they be fitted with the 717's RR engines? Very quiet, and (I think) eficient powerplant.



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 794 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9949 times:



Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 8):
I've often wondered that. Could they be fitted with the 717's RR engines? Very quiet, and (I think) eficient powerplant.

BR715 is quite a bit heavier than the JT-8D. Though I like your thinking, it would throw the CG out of whack. Now, if someone could make the case for the cost of the GE CF-34-8 or -10 I think you could be on to something.

Personally, I think you will see the DC-9 around for a few more years yet. I think you will see it on many of the same routes that it has been flying for years. Where it will be replaced is on the hub to hub routes that it is presently on and some of the southern destinations. These airplanes will probably replace RJs on routes that will see upgaging with less frequency, think upper midwest cities served by both DTW and CVG that will now only be served by DC-9 to DTW or mostly DTW with only 1 or 2 a day to CVG on RJ.

I also think that the DC-9s will be around until the C series is a reality or Boeing realizes that it needs to address this segment with the Y1 or whatever they will come up with.

727forever

p.s. I love to see that the DC-9 is now replacing the RJs on routes that the RJ stole from it in the first place. I say long live the 9.



727forever
User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1254 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9937 times:

if I remember correctly, the DC9 fuselage doesnt have a life cycle limitation does it?

The DC9 is the DC3 of the jet age - someone will always be flying one!



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6631 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9907 times:

I thought I read on here that -30 would soon go, but -40 & -50 would stay awhile and be dumped on head to head FL routes from ATL.


I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9733 times:



Quoting 727forever (Reply 9):

BR715 is quite a bit heavier than the JT-8D. Though I like your thinking, it would throw the CG out of whack. Now, if someone could make the case for the cost of the GE CF-34-8 or -10 I think you could be on to something.

The BR715s may be heavier and therefore affect CG ... but chances are that could be counteracted fairly easily.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineNwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1159 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8947 times:
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Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 10):
if I remember correctly, the DC9 fuselage doesnt have a life cycle limitation does it?

The DC-9 has a 100,000 life cycle agreement with the FEDS. This is due to cracking in the aft pressure bulkhead. The only alternative is an expensive modification.  old 



Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently offlineMichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8806 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 3):
From what I understand NW mortgaged these aircraft for around 200 Mil in the 3rd quarter just before merging with DL.

Where did you hear that? Who would have valued the DC-9's that high to accept them as collateral for $200 million? Sorry, I'm not believing it.


User currently offlineVhqpa From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 1497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8244 times:

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 8):

Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 6):
How long could they last if they were reengined?

I've often wondered that. Could they be fitted with the 717's RR engines? Very quiet, and (I think) eficient powerplant.

The biggest problem is that it's not just a matter of bolting newer engines on these aircraft. Re-engining the diesel nine would involve a lengthy testing and costly certification program for 50 or so frames which DL is going to retire in the next 5-10 years and lets face it these aircraft don't have a life after DL. It doesn't make economic sense it would be in DL's best interest to leave these aircraft on short sub 90 minute hops until something like the C series is available




Vhq

[Edited 2008-12-21 18:05:08]


"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
User currently offlineN801NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7938 times:



Quoting Michman (Reply 14):
Where did you hear that? Who would have valued the DC-9's that high to accept them as collateral for $200 million? Sorry, I'm not believing it.



Quote:
Northwest Airlines Secures $500 Million of New Financing

EAGAN, Minn. – (October 29, 2008) – Northwest Airlines (NYSE: NWA) announced today that is has closed on a new $500 million financing facility. The financing is structured as a $500 million secured revolving credit facility and was led by U.S. Bank with Citigroup and Morgan Stanley as co-lead arrangers and joint book runners.

In an 8-K Report filed with the SEC, the Company said that the financing will consist of a three-year $200 million secured revolving credit facility with a final maturity on October 28, 2011 with loans thereunder bearing interest at LIBOR plus 4.5%, and a 364-day $300 million secured revolving credit facility with a final maturity on October 28, 2009 with loans thereunder bearing interest at LIBOR plus 3.5%.

Northwest’s executive vice president and chief financial officer, Dave Davis, said, “We are very pleased to announce that this financing has been completed, especially in this challenging credit environment and we are grateful for the financial support provided from U.S. Bank, Citicorp and Morgan Stanley in helping to structure and lead this transaction.” The new facility is intended to be used for working capital needs and general corporate purposes.

On the Northwest Airlines Corp. 3rd Quarter Earnings call they did say it was secured by DC-9's, aircraft engines, and other spare parts. This was the day before the Delta transaction closed.


User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7795 times:

Glenn Hauenstein at the investor day conference referred to the DC-9s as "Yesterday's trash is today's treasure". He said with fuel where it is now, these planes have vitrually zero ownership costs and therefore are very efficient airplanes (not necessarily fuel wise) to be flying right now. He said that they also have less seats than an average plane and are great as demand is shrinking. Basically, the way he was talking about them, I sort of think he was setting us up for an announcement that they will be bringing some out of the desert soon. There are a lot of DC9-30s in the desert now that are very appealing with today's fuel prices.

User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7657 times:

Scrap aluminium prices have dropped 55% in the past 4 months. These aircraft would have worth a lot more back then and were a lot closer to being recycled than they are now!

It's just whether it's an economical decision (if it's cheaper to continue flying an aircraft that's been paid off but cost a lot to fuel and maintain or it's cheaper (total lifecycle cost) to replace them with A32X/B73X/E1X0/C1X0) or that 100000 cycles are reached and they are forced to replace them.

Article from 10 years ago!

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_/ai_53414779
Quote:

Decision to Fly Planes for 40 Years Based on Extended Fatigue Testing
Air Safety Week, Dec 14, 1998

LONDON - A detailed structural safety analysis was conducted before Northwest Airlines [NWAC] decided to keep flying its DC-9 fleet another 15 years.
...
Speaking at an aging airliner conference here, Brad Mueller, Northwest's manager of fleet planning, said the DC-9 was a perfect fit for routes it was flying.
...
"Douglas had tested the airplane to more than 200,000 cycles," Mueller explained. At the time Northwest decided to invest about $10 million per plane for hushkits, new interiors, and other upgrades, Mueller said Northwest's DC-9's had logged about 65,000-70,000 cycles.
...
"Major modifications are needed at 104,000 cycles," Mueller explained.
...

So another 15 years in 1998 means 2013 is the end game!

[Edited 2008-12-21 19:38:47]


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineAA757MIA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7520 times:

Quoting Vhqpa (Reply 15):
and lets face it these aircraft don't have a life after DL

I wouldn't be surprised if they get purchased by Aserca or any other Venezuelan airline...   

[Edited 2008-12-21 20:04:09]

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7565 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6818 times:



Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 8):
Could they be fitted with the 717's RR engines? Very quiet, and (I think) eficient powerplant.

No it can't be done.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
I thought I read on here that -30 would soon go, but -40 & -50 would stay awhile and be dumped on head to head FL routes from ATL.

At one point that was Delta's genious plan, the -30's were slowly going at NW, however, -30's have been returned from the desert, talk is that 35 will come back to line flying. Originally before the fuel crisis NW planned to keep the DC-9's till 2016. The -40's and -50's will be at DL for quite sometime, why I don't really know considering the -50 is one seat bigger than both the 737-700 and A319, and the -40 fits in nicely at 110, but the best is the -30 with 100 seats... without it they would be going from a 76 seater to a 124 seater.... I hope that DL is smart and continues on NW's plan at being very interested in the C-Series since its the same size as a DC-9 with the 2-3 seating.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6751 times:



Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 17):
Glenn Hauenstein at the investor day conference referred to the DC-9s as "Yesterday's trash is today's treasure". He said with fuel where it is now, these planes have vitrually zero ownership costs and therefore are very efficient airplanes (not necessarily fuel wise) to be flying right now. He said that they also have less seats than an average plane and are great as demand is shrinking. Basically, the way he was talking about them, I sort of think he was setting us up for an announcement that they will be bringing some out of the desert soon. There are a lot of DC9-30s in the desert now that are very appealing with today's fuel prices.

not anymore. They now have cost again (who would think NW would get much for the old 9s?)

DL is going to look into a replacement but with fuel low they can worry more about other things right now. Its on the back burner for now (along with the SF3 replacements)



yep.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7771 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6612 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 21):
not anymore. They now have cost again (who would think NW would get much for the old 9s?)

DL is going to look into a replacement but with fuel low they can worry more about other things right now. Its on the back burner for now (along with the SF3 replacements)

Where do you get your information from?

There has never been any serious talk about a SF3 replacement at all, period. These is nothing to put on the back burner because it was never on the front burner to begin with.
The plan has always been to keep the Saabs through the end of their current leases, which is in 2013.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6561 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 22):

There has never been any serious talk about a SF3 replacement at all, period. These is nothing to put on the back burner because it was never on the front burner to begin with.
The plan has always been to keep the Saabs through the end of their current leases, which is in 2013.

right then once 2013 comes around they will need to be replaced.
find the thread about the new SF3 base in Atlanta. Find the PR in the first post (IIRC) read the whole thing and you will see something like "Delta will look at a replacement for the planes, like the ATR-72-600."
sorry id look but at 300am that just is about to happen.  Wink



yep.
User currently offlineMichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6498 times:



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 18):
So another 15 years in 1998 means 2013 is the end game!

That assumes they've been flying at the cycles they projected 15 years ago. It's possible they've flown fewer cycles than originally projected and may go a year or two beyond the 2013 date before hitting 104,000 cycles.


25 Sovietjet : They'll keep flying for as long as it is economically viable which given the current economic factors seems like a deal for DL. I don't understand why
26 Av8rDAL : I think a sizable majority of us are of the opinion that these birds are NOT the same boring types that every other airline uses. These things make m
27 GSPSPOT : I completely agree! I so fondly remember standing at the chain link gate beside the old terminal at MOB back in the day, and loving it when the jet b
28 Post contains links and images Mayor : If you want smoke and noise, bring back the 880! View Large View MediumPhoto © Larry Pullen
29 Sectflyer : Over the summer when fuel prices were sky high we considered buying a new car for my partner. He commutes about 600 miles a week. We looked at a more
30 ContinentalAUS : Well after reading countless posts on NW DC-9's I am finally going to fly on one in April. It will be a flight from SAT - MEM on a -30. I am pretty ex
31 Victrola : My guess would be Aero California
32 Jetjeanes : They can keep them for years in fact delta still has a dc-3. it does crank and fly
33 Mayor : After it was recovered from a freight operator in Puerto Rico and subjected to an extensive restoration.
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