IAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 501 posts, RR: 45 Posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15764 times:
Looks like Southwest is putting $40m towards getting its -300 fleet ready for RNP ops. First one will be out in early 2011. They're installing two massive 15 inch displays (same size as 787) for the PFD and ND.
Fair use:
"The integrated large area display suite and flight management system controls the aircraft track to an accuracy of 10 meters and the time of arrival to within 10 seconds to any point in the flight plan. Benefits include the ability to fly shorter flight paths and idle-thrust descents which reduces fuel consumption, thereby lowering emissions and community noise levels. Software and hardware updates provide the latest technology to continue to meet the needs of the world's evolving airspace requirements, offering safe and efficient improvements to aircraft operations."
What I thought was really interesting about this was the possibility that these 15 inch displays could probably find their way into the 737NG production system in the form of a block point change. It would certainly reduce the number of LRUs in the flight deck and could make for a 787 style integration and additional commonality. Boeing "had no info" for me on that, but it definitely leaves the door open for a generation 3.5 737 with a new engine. GTF anyone?
Onward,
IAD787
Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
AAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15757 times:
Wow...... so this must mean they are going to go after the SAAAR for RNP approaches as well real soon. I know they had been working on a "tailored" RNP approach into MDW but have not heard anything more. I wonder if this means they are going to convert the NGs back to the PFD/ND as well as re-install auto throttles and VNAV since they are major keys to CDP.
IIRC this is the same company that is doing the 767 conversions.
Does anyone find the humor in this though? This was the same company that wanted Boeing to not put the FMCs in the -300s and -500s. They also didn't want to keep the navdatabase updated when the NGs started to first come line. I guess since they flew to a lot of the places that were part of the initial HAR stuff and the FAA, along with the airports, said no unless they wanted a lot of their slots pulled.
73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 127 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15402 times:
Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 1): as re-install auto throttles and VNAV since they are major keys to CDP.
Auto-throttles and VNAV are installed on every Southwest aircraft. The systems are simply collared and placarded 'INOP'. All it takes is a system check and both will work as they were designed to from the beginning. The hard part is training all of the crews. I know that the FOM and FRM were both recently updated to reflect the use of Autothrottles and VNAV.
Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 1): This was the same company that wanted Boeing to not put the FMCs in the -300s and -500s.
It is slightly ironic. When the -300 was conceived, WN wanted Boeing to 'dumb down' the cockpit configuration to as closely match the -200 as possible. Same goes for the -500. This allowed them to use their pilots across all three fleets. With the -700's coming online and the -200's retiring, and with RNP being the way of the future, they simply ran out of options for the analog gauge airplanes. Since the majority of the -300 fleet is fairly young and has received winglets, they are obviously going to be around for sometime. Makes sense to make the upgrades now to fully take advantage of the technology thats out there. Especially since Southwest is leading the way in RNP development with the FAA.
As far as the PFD/ND display goes, that is a great question. I don't think it will be necessary to change to this type of configuration as their current display still provides a 'moving map' type display with route overlay. However, I could be mistaken about that.
Apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3651 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 15257 times:
Does this mean that when these come online, that they will change the 700 display to go from the round instruments displayed to the more standard PFD as is found on most other Glass cockpits?
IAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4733 posts, RR: 25 Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 15104 times:
Quoting 73G (Reply 3): Especially since Southwest is leading the way in RNP development with the FAA.
Respectfully, Southwest is slightly behind the curve on RNP if you go on more than the simple FAA promo of NextGen! They are rapidly moving toward getting their crew training and airplane conversions in place.
There are other airlines and corporate entities which either have domestic RNP certification or are very close. Alaska and Continental come to mind as carriers with RNP certification in place. Alaska has been ahead of the game with RNP in the U.S. for some time, others are catching up.
Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 1): so this must mean they are going to go after the SAAAR for RNP approaches as well real soon.
From the link it would appear the "certain routes" phrase might combine be more involved than RNP SAAAR work, sounds like enroute RNP ops if I can read into the phrase a bit!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 127 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 14904 times:
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6): There are other airlines and corporate entities which either have domestic RNP certification or are very close. Alaska and Continental come to mind as carriers with RNP certification in place. Alaska has been ahead of the game with RNP in the U.S. for some time, others are catching up.
I am unaware of any other US carrier commiting to upgrading their entire fleet and route system to full RNP capability. Continental and Delta do indeed have RNP capable aircraft and crews but at this point and for the forseeable future, it will be limited in its use to a small number of airports. Alaska has been on the forefront of RNP technology domestically by virtue of the mountainous terrain in which they fly. WestJet also uses it at all of their Canadian airports.
By parterning with Naverus, Southwest has commited to using RNP across its entire route structure. When you considier the fact that Southwest operates over 3,400 daily flights in the United States, it is a monumental undertaking and one not yet matched by any other carrier in terms of scope...worldwide. A decision has not yet been made on whether or not Southwest will 'share' this technology with other carriers. I suppose I could have worded my original post a bit differently. Southwest has in the past lagged behind the pack in terms of cockpit automation. However, it appears as though that will be changing dramatically over the next 5 years as the entire fleet goes 'glass'.
AAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 14680 times:
Quoting 73G (Reply 3):
As far as the PFD/ND display goes, that is a great question. I don't think it will be necessary to change to this type of configuration as their current display still provides a 'moving map' type display with route overlay. However, I could be mistaken about that.
Well I would think they should since the entire reason for the current NG displays was to have all the planes on the same ticket. The new panels look very similar to the PFD/ND ones right now for the NGs. I could be wrong but isn't the only thing a card change in the avionics bay or something and papaerwork!
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
From the link it would appear the "certain routes" phrase might combine be more involved than RNP SAAAR work, sounds like enroute RNP ops if I can read into the phrase a bit!
Yeah but looking at a lot of current WN routes, they already do Q Airways and stuff like that. Look at places like TUS and BUR who have RNP approaches, I bet those are some of the "test" destinations.
Quoting 73G (Reply 7): I am unaware of any other US carrier
United tinkered with RNP approaches. They got the SAAAR for the 744 and 777 and actually handed out the charts as part of the airways manuals for IAD, LGB, and a few other places. Thing is they never changed the database over or trained the line pilots I guess according to a pal of mine. During the last "FAA" revision in November, they canceled the charts and told the pilots to destroy them.
Quoting 73G (Reply 7): By parterning with Naverus, Southwest has commited to using RNP across its entire route structure.
I really wish I would have got on with Naverus O well at least I was considered when they really didn't have a program set up for in-turns but its for the best since the approach design requires way more math then I'm willing to study, so I'll just stick to flying them
Iahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4733 posts, RR: 25 Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 14481 times:
Quoting 73G (Reply 7): I am unaware of any other US carrier commiting to upgrading their entire fleet and route system to full RNP capability.
Quite a large percentage of the CO fleet is RNP capable, minus birds they are parking....and all their B735's are GPS equipped but IIRC single FMC's. The B756 fleet is certified for both domestic and international IIRC.
Quoting 73G (Reply 7): Continental and Delta do indeed have RNP capable aircraft and crews but at this point and for the forseeable future, it will be limited in its use to a small number of airports.
I won't argue that Southwest isn't making a huge aggressive move with the work on the airplanes and the Naverus procedure work however, as more airports publish public RNP's I'd believe all who have the certification will be flying the approaches.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
Okie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2410 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 13990 times:
Quoting 73G (Reply 3): Since the majority of the -300 fleet is fairly young and has received winglets, they are obviously going to be around for sometime.
So how many 300's are we talking about for $40,000,000.00
I would bet all of them in the end. With these panels along with the winglets, these planes could stay around as long as the -700s if maintained right.
JetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1415 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13891 times:
of the 40 million bucks what are the cost savings to wn does anyone know???and if so i wonder how long it would take to recoup the 40 million.
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5538 posts, RR: 34 Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13223 times:
Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 13): of the 40 million bucks what are the cost savings to wn does anyone know???and if so i wonder how long it would take to recoup the 40 million.
Undoubtedly they have a pretty good ball park figure but at this point in time I don't think that anyone really knows exactly what are the cost savings and the investment payback because there are several variables.
And it is not just cost savings but increased productivity that one has to look at with the shorter flight paths.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5538 posts, RR: 34 Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12662 times:
Quoting IAD787 (Thread starter): Looks like Southwest is putting $40m towards getting its -300 fleet ready for RNP ops.
RATI, your sister publication displayed the following...
Boeing will be the lead integrator for a larger programme to upgrade Southwest's Boeing 737-300s and -700s. The integrated cockpit displays will feature primary flight displays, standby instrument and control panels.
And the total costs are "$175 million during a six-year period to implement RNP procedures on classic and next generation aircraft."
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
Manfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8423 times:
Quoting Okie (Reply 11): So how many 300's are we talking about for $40,000,000.00
So, it looks like this is a cost saving measure...rather than ordering a bunch more 737's, they can use the -300 for many more years. Taking a page from the US military no doubt. I may not like Southwest, but they do have some good ideas.
I'm not fond of the new cockpit howewever. It has a decidedly cold feel...looks like something out of flightsim2000.
Okie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2410 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8207 times:
Quoting Okie (Reply 11): So how many 300's are we talking about for $40,000,000.00
I guess my question was not exactly clear. Let me try again
Approximately how many 737-300 airframes will $40million modify, or about what is the cost per frame to upgrade.
787luvr From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 20 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8207 times:
Does anyone know if the small engine gauges in the middle will be LCD's as well?
IAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 501 posts, RR: 45 Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8054 times:
The $40m will cover up to 150. With 186 in operation right now, it seems like we'll probably see the retirement of the oldest models as new -700s are added in their place.
Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
ClearedDirect From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 271 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4947 times:
Quoting Okie (Reply 11): So how many 300's are we talking about for $40,000,000.00
Okie
Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 12): I would bet all of them in the end. With these panels along with the winglets, these planes could stay around as long as the -700s if maintained right.
Quoting Okie (Reply 17): Approximately how many 737-300 airframes will $40million modify, or about what is the cost per frame to upgrade.
Okie
From the article it states:
According to Flight's ACAS database, Southwest operates 186 737-300 aircraft, though GE says only up to 150 -300s will receive the upgrade.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5962 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4805 times:
I'm sure if WN is doing it, there's some cost savings to be had.
Any idea how many LRU's the current "steam guage" 737-300 cockpit has? (many of the instruments are really electromechanical, there's a flight computer doing the thinking and telling the needles how to move)
The number of LRU's is probably greatly reduced with a more integrated flight suite...
Wonder if the -5H4s will get the same upgrade?
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5538 posts, RR: 34 Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4609 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 22): I'm sure if WN is doing it, there's some cost savings to be had.
In January CEO Gary Kelly said that RNP could save Southwest "tens of millions annually". And in June, Southwest said that by 2015 they estimate that RNP will save 156,000 metric tons of emissions and result in fuel savings of $25-million.
Bear in mind that Southwest will not be RNP system-wide until end of 2013.
An interesting comment by Kelly is that he said... that one can technically "drive a tractor and plough a field" with more accuracy than one can fly an aircraft today.
BTW, this program has been in the works for quite some time. Southwest signed the RNP agreement with Naverus in May 2007... 1.5 years ago.
They signed the FMS upgrades with GE Aviation (formerly Smiths Aerospace) for their Classics in Oct. 2007.
And, they signed with Rockwell Collins to install the GPS-4000S in their Classics in Jan. 2008.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
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From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 501 posts, 
O well at least I was considered when they really didn't have a program set up for in-turns 
but its for the best since the approach design requires way more math then I'm willing to study, so I'll just stick to flying them 
From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5538 posts, 
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