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Brazil Air Traffic 2008: Top Airports  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4934 times:

Brazil's Top 21 Airports (January-November Traffic Numbers)
(Percentage growth compared to 2007)

1. Guarulhos-GRU: 18,647 (9.9)
2. Congonhas-CGH: 14,245 (-11.9)
3. Galeao-GIG: 9,516 (2.7)
4. Brasilia-BSB: 9,495 (-5.4)
5. Salvador-SSA: 5,436 (1.0)

6. Porto Alegre-POA: 4,446 (10.2)
7. Confins-CNF: 4,433 (13.3)
8. Recife-REC: 4,243 (11.7)
9. Curitiba-CWB: 3,950 (11.8)
10. Santos Dumont-SDU: 3,330 (12.1)

11. Fortaleza-FOR: 3,141 (-4.0)
12. Belem-BEL: 1,961 (2.7)
13. Florianopolis-FLN: 1,901 (8.1)
14. Vitoria-VIX: 1,822 (5.9)
15. Manaus-MAO: 1,688 (-8.9)

16. Natal-NAT: 1,485 (4.2)
17. Goiania-GYN: 1,427 (1.1)
18. Cuiaba-CGB: 1,269 (12.6)
19. Campinas-CPQ/VCP: 0,994 (7.9)
20. Maceio-MCZ: 0,868 (2.8)
21. Sao Luiz-SLZ: 0,799 (-2.1)

POA overtook CNF as no. 6; SDU overtook FOR as no. 10; and BEL overtook FLN as no. 12.

In 2009 I expect BSB to overtake GIG as no. 4 as the difference between both airports is narrowing down every month.

Brazil's Top 21 Airports (January-November Percentage Growth over 2007)

1. Confins-CNF: 4,433 (13.3)
2. Cuiaba-CGB: 1,269 (12.6)
3. Santos Dumont-SDU: 3,330 (12.1)
4. Curitiba-CWB: 3,950 (11.8)
5. Recife-REC: 4,243 (11.7)

6. Porto Alegre-POA: 4,446 (10.2)
7. Guarulhos-GRU: 18,647 (9.9)
8. Florianopolis-FLN: 1,901 (8.1)
9. Campinas-CPQ/VCP: 0,994 (7.9)
10. Vitoria-VIX: 1,822 (5.9)

11. Natal-NAT: 1,485 (4.2)
12. Maceio-MCZ: 0,868 (2.8)
13. Belem-BEL: 1,961 (2.7)
13. Galeao-GIG: 9,516 (2.7)
15. Goiania-GYN: 1,427 (1.1)

16. Salvador-SSA: 5,436 (1.0)
17. Sao Luiz-SLZ: 0,799 (-2.1)
18. Fortaleza-FOR: 3,141 (-4.0)
19. Brasilia-BSB: 9,495 (-5.4)
20. Manaus-MAO: 1,688 (-8.9)
21. Congonhas-CGH: 14,245 (-11.9)

International Pax in GRU and GIG (Traffic Growth)

GRU: 8,137 (6.0)
GIG: 1,949 (-1.9)

This shows that GIG's growth of 2.7% was mainly because of increase in domestic traffic because international traffic has actually decreased 2%. I expect GIG to show better numbers in international traffic in 2009 because of the launch of several new international flights among which JFK-GIG, MIA-GIG, IAH-GIG, LHR-GIG. However, if a decision is reched to open up SDU airport GIG will show strong decrease in pax numbers in 2009 (domestic).

Rgs,

116 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4031 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4907 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
I expect GIG to show better numbers in international traffic in 2009 because of the launch of several new international flights among which JFK-GIG, MIA-GIG, IAH-GIG, LHR-GIG. However, if a decision is reched to open up SDU airport GIG will show strong decrease in pax numbers in 2009 (domestic).

If SDU is opened without any safeguards, GIG international traffic will suffer too. In particular TAM relies on connecting traffic at GIG in a substantial maner to sustain its GIG-EZE and GIG-CDG services. A large percentage of these connecting passengers comes from VIX, CNF, BSB and CWB, which would be ideal candidates for SDU services. Without connections at GIG, the TAM CDG service cannot survive.



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User currently offlineSampa737 From Brazil, joined May 2005, 637 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4867 times:

Is the world economic crisis affecting Brazil yet or will it? Will the crisis roll into Brazil and if it does, how will this affect numbers domestically and/or internationally? I know no one has a crystal ball yet there has to be some way of looking ahead.

Feliz Natal!


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9903 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4851 times:

Where is this top list coming from?

A388


User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1307 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4833 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
POA overtook CNF as no. 6; SDU overtook FOR as no. 10; and BEL overtook FLN as no. 12.

Math was never my strong point but how can POA overtake CNF where CNF has the higher growing percentage and both have about the same number?



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3711 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4809 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):

In 2009 I expect BSB to overtake GIG as no. 4 as the difference between both airports is narrowing down every month.

It's narrowing down, because of the traffic distribution in the year, but that won't happen any longer, since GIG is still growing, while BSB is shrinking, just like SAO. SAO's traffic is smaller this year.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4796 times:



Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
Where is this top list coming from?

A388

http://www.infraero.gov.br/

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 4):
Math was never my strong point but how can POA overtake CNF where CNF has the higher growing percentage and both have about the same number?

Perhaps because POA grew stronger than CNF in the last few months. Remember that the percentage reflects yearly average and POA and CNF difference is a small margin.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
It's narrowing down, because of the traffic distribution in the year, but that won't happen any longer, since GIG is still growing, while BSB is shrinking, just like SAO. SAO's traffic is smaller this year

I am not so sure. If ANAC decides to open SDU then GIG traffic will nose-dive. I am also not so sure whether GIG will manage to revert the very disappointing numbers of 2008 even with SDU restricted.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
GIG is still growing

Very shy growth of less than 3%, especially if you compare with airports growing at or above 10%: CNF, CGB, SDU, CWB, REC, POA and GRU.

SDU is showing it is the preferred option in Rio and if ANAC lift restrictions many flights will shift from GIG to SDU.

Rgs,


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9903 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4768 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
Where is this top list coming from?

A388

http://www.infraero.gov.br/

Do you have a direct link to this data? I can't find the information on the infraero website. In any case thanks for the source info.

A388

[Edited 2008-12-24 11:10:54]

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4757 times:



Quoting A388 (Reply 7):
Do you have a direct link to this data? I can't find the information on the infraero website. In any case thanks for the source info.

On the Infraero website click on Airport Movement ("Movimento dos Aeroportos").

A link (see below) will open with data divided by year and month starting from 2003. The data is updated on a monthly basis.

When you click on a specific month a PDF table with data breakdown for each of INFRAERO's 68 airports in Brazil will be shown.

http://www.infraero.gov.br/movi.php?...PSESSID=tlh9vn23tcslbhm9gkda1hn2d1

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4707 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):

GIG lost space during 2008 because ANAC decided to easy restrictions on CGH (allowing connections) which means a lot of passengers that connects thru GIG during last months of 2007 and first months of 2008, were deployed by airlines thru CGH and also to SDU.
GRU, even with several problems, continue to receive additional domestic and international services while some GIG new services (like LHR) is just a "redesign" of a 1 stop service. TAM 11 weekly service to the US with about 8,800 seats/month is not enough to produce a major result.
We can't compare GRU, an airport with the main hub of the largest BRazilian Airline and focus of international airlines, with an airport that does not hold a main hub nor it's a focus destination (except for a few airlines)



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4700 times:
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Quoting Glareskin (Reply 4):
Math was never my strong point but how can POA overtake CNF where CNF has the higher growing percentage and both have about the same number?

Hardi based the comment on last months. But CNF reduction in traffic is more due to the economic slowdown as the state is strong in raw material.
POA will be shortly seeing lower numbers.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
It's narrowing down, because of the traffic distribution in the year, but that won't happen any longer, since GIG is still growing, while BSB is shrinking, just like SAO. SAO's traffic is smaller this year.

The fact is that GIG will continue ahead because during peak periods, BSB traffic faces reduction while GIG increases a lot. Infraero says about 350,000 pax disapear from GIG compared to Dec/07 which for me makes no sense. I believe they changed the way they count passengers, but flights continue to do well (with 35% reduction we shall see a lot of services being discontinued)
ANAC is on a clear campaign against GIG (also in favor of Azul) and seems to be working with numbers.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3711 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4649 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Very shy growth of less than 3%

Not at all. It's a very healthy growth.
GRU is not really growing. It's absorbing CGH's traffic.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4613 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 11):
Not at all. It's a very healthy growth.
GRU is not really growing. It's absorbing CGH's traffic.

3% is shy as compared to CNF, CGB, SDU, CWB, REC, POA and GRU and to Brazil in general. In case SDU opens up then GIG traffic would go into negative. We all know that there is a high aversion to GIG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
But CNF reduction in traffic is more due to the economic slowdown as the state is strong in raw material.
POA will be shortly seeing lower numbers.

I agree but overall POA will maintain its position ahead of CNF. I think the synergies expected from CNF hub operations are now fully factored in.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
The fact is that GIG will continue ahead because during peak periods, BSB traffic faces reduction while GIG increases a lot.

The day BSB receives its new satellite it will grow strong again. BSB has serious limitations. I personally think BSB will surpass GIG in 2009. BSB has a stragic location. BSB lost many connecting pax to new connection developments in CNF and GIG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
ANAC is on a clear campaign against GIG (also in favor of Azul) and seems to be working with numbers.

ANAC and especially INFRAERO are also on an open campaign against GRU.

Rgs,


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4600 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
ANAC and especially INFRAERO are also on an open campaign against GRU.

INFRAERO isn't going to win many points for competence, but isn't it desirable to de-emphasize GRU? The airport is horrible and crowded.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4595 times:



Quoting AF022 (Reply 13):
INFRAERO isn't going to win many points for competence, but isn't it desirable to de-emphasize GRU? The airport is horrible and crowded.

Not different from GIG, thanks to INFRAERO.

Rgs,


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4031 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4575 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
ANAC is on a clear campaign against GIG (also in favor of Azul) and seems to be working with numbers.

As far as I understand Azul met with the Defense Minister who promised to help the launch of Azul be successful. I would not go as far as saying that ANAC or Infraero are manipulating traffic numbers. After I read the document on SDU prepared by ANAC I am inclined to believe that Infraero is an engineering company that cannot do statistics and ANAC is just careless.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 13):
but isn't it desirable to de-emphasize GRU?

I realize many people in this forum have different opinions but I think neither GRU nor GIG should be "de-emphasized". Other airports in Brazil have little or no international service, and the recent experience has shown that sustainable international service from them cannot be taken for granted. GRU and GIG are essential connecting points for the rest of Brazil. People wanting to fly MCZ-CAI, SSA-PER, PVH-JNB, etc, do it through them. GRU and GIG are business assets for Brazil.

International services to other airports should be stimulated, and the usage of downtown airports can be expanded, but without damaging the connectivity present in GRU and GIG.



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User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4558 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
I agree but overall POA will maintain its position ahead of CNF. I think the synergies expected from CNF hub operations are now fully factored in

Hardi, POA nowadays is the 3rd largest international airport due to the flights they held to MVD, EZE, COR and ROS. Gol established a very smart hub to the south (which includes connections from CGH, GRU, CWB, BSB and GIG there). Argentina will face a major downturn (bigger than Brazil) and i'm sure POA numbers will not continue to be so strong.
CNF got a hit from raw material and steel industry, POA as i mentioned will suffer of lower commodities prices next year.


Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
Not different from GIG, thanks to INFRAERO.

Hardi don't get me wrong, but GRU has severe infra-structure problems (lack of structure). GIG in the opposite HAS the structure but Infraero seems don't want to use 100% of the available resources as well as to fix the small problems (which demands minimal investment) like taxiways, re-arrange routes departing and ariving to RIO (both airports).
It's a shame when visibility is reduced GIG loses one runway because SDU need to continue it's operations. It's a sole case where the international (and main airport) became a "slave" of the secondary airport.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3711 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4550 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):

ANAC and especially INFRAERO are also on an open campaign against GRU.

I don't think so. GRU's T3 doesn't go forward because of the federal government. PT is not interested in funding the airport now, since São Paulo an opposition state is.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
It's a sole case where the international (and main airport) became a "slave" of the secondary airport.

You're right. That only reminds me how regional traffic is sometimes halted in the US when the weather doesn't cooperate. Other flights are prioritised.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4519 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
I don't think so. GRU's T3 doesn't go forward because of the federal government. PT is not interested in funding the airport now, since São Paulo an opposition state is.

This is what I said. INFRAERO/ANAC = Federal Government. It is a concerted game to undermine GRU. But could backfire if during the next presidential election we have another airport chaos...

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
Hardi, POA nowadays is the 3rd largest international airport due to the flights they held to MVD, EZE, COR and ROS. Gol established a very smart hub to the south (which includes connections from CGH, GRU, CWB, BSB and GIG there). Argentina will face a major downturn (bigger than Brazil) and i'm sure POA numbers will not continue to be so strong.
CNF got a hit from raw material and steel industry, POA as i mentioned will suffer of lower commodities prices next year.

I agree with you. But in my opinion POA has more fundamentals to continue ahead of CNF. POA international pax traffic is insignificant compared to the domestic numbers and a possible decrease in international numbers is no reason for concern.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
but GRU has severe infra-structure problems (lack of structure). GIG in the opposite HAS the structure but Infraero seems don't want to use 100% of the available resources as well as to fix the small problems (which demands minimal investment) like taxiways, re-arrange routes departing and ariving to RIO (both airports).

I agree the problems in GRU are certainly much more complex as the airport needs another terminal and god's know when this will be delivered...but I insist that GIG needs a lot of "repair" and I find the situation equally scandalous. On the other hand the posssible decrease in traffic expected for 2009 will give some space and time for INFRAERO to rethink airport development plans and sort out other issues such as the situation of SDU, priviatisation of GIG and VCP, and the bidding for GRUT3 construction.

At least this week we had good news for GIG as they will carry out the depollution of the Fundao water bay which is a multimillion, very expensive project but extremelly important for the revitalisation and sustainability of the area sourrounding GIG. This was a major breakthrough in my opinion.

Rgs,


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3711 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4485 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
This is what I said. INFRAERO/ANAC = Federal Government. It is a concerted game to undermine GRU. But could backfire if during the next presidential election we have another airport chaos...

No, T3 depends on the budget. It has little to do with Infraero and ANAC. Congress should work on it.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 19):
No, T3 depends on the budget. It has little to do with Infraero and ANAC. Congress should work on it.

Budget is actually approved. It has nothing to do with funding nor with congressional matters. In fact construction has not been started yet because of problems with the bidding process as reported by the National Accounting Tribunal (TCU) which embargoed the bidding process because of price specification of some of the bidding components.

http://www.tribuna.inf.br/anteriores...mbro/15/noticia.asp?noticia=pais02

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/cotidiano/ult95u451755.shtml

http://www.estadao.com.br/geral/not_ger221565,0.htm

http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Politic...ILHOES+EM+OBRAS+DE+AEROPORTOS.html

Rgs,

[Edited 2008-12-25 11:01:27]

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4427 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
I agree the problems in GRU are certainly much more complex as the airport needs another terminal and god's know when this will be delivered...but I insist that GIG needs a lot of "repair" and I find the situation equally scandalous. On the other hand the posssible decrease in traffic expected for 2009 will give some space and time for INFRAERO to rethink airport development plans and sort out other issues such as the situation of SDU, priviatisation of GIG and VCP, and the bidding for GRUT3 construction

The repairs at GIG begins and the airport shows at least improvements on TPS1 while TPS2 conclusion has begin. As we know, Infraero manages all major airports and they can improve GIG and turn it into a very efficient airport, if they want. The resources are ready, runway system is perfect, terminals can handle 2x more people... again, it's not a limit on the infra-structure, it's a limit imposed by government authorities.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
At least this week we had good news for GIG as they will carry out the depollution of the Fundao water bay which is a multimillion, very expensive project but extremelly important for the revitalisation and sustainability of the area sourrounding GIG. This was a major breakthrough in my opinion

Agree 100%. And hope a project to turn the slums closer to GIG into a big multimodal distribution area become real in the future.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4270 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
The repairs at GIG begins and the airport shows at least improvements on TPS1 while TPS2 conclusion has begin. As we know, Infraero manages all major airports and they can improve GIG and turn it into a very efficient airport, if they want. The resources are ready, runway system is perfect, terminals can handle 2x more people... again, it's not a limit on the infra-structure, it's a limit imposed by government authorities.

My wish is for GIG to quickly get the investment it deserves the same way GRU also needs its new Terminal 3 because airlines cannot be dictated where to fly. As mentioned above, GRU and GIG are enormous "assets" for Brazil and need to be treated with priority.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Agree 100%. And hope a project to turn the slums closer to GIG into a big multimodal distribution area become real in the future.

Well, this is a much more sensitive issue and needs to be carefully planned, fully ensuring that slums dwellers get relocation with due compensation. I do not expect a solution soon for this issue, which is far more complicated and is related to more fundamental problems such as Brazil's inequity and social gap. Moving the slums from one place to another is certainly no solution.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4248 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
Well, this is a much more sensitive issue and needs to be carefully planned, fully ensuring that slums dwellers get relocation with due compensation. I do not expect a solution soon for this issue, which is far more complicated and is related to more fundamental problems such as Brazil's inequity and social gap. Moving the slums from one place to another is certainly no solution.

Yes, but the idea should be not to move the slum, but to offer houses at the same time you increase the land value on a potential commercial/industrial area.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
My wish is for GIG to quickly get the investment it deserves the same way GRU also needs its new Terminal 3 because airlines cannot be dictated where to fly. As mentioned above, GRU and GIG are enormous "assets" for Brazil and need to be treated with priority.

Hardi, as i always mention... GRU is well above it's capacity and ANAC and Infraero keep opening new slots. I imagine if the same situation hapens in Tokyo HND, London LHR, New York JFK, Frankfurt FRA, and others... we're just getting the results of our government input. Yes, you can dictate with smart bilateral agreements and a clear slot policy, but you can't expect that airlines try another airports if they know they can fly to São Paulo. Like we use to say, if both India and China does not regulate their market, probably one or two airports will be the focus of all international airlines (it's the best for them what they are looking for but not the best for the foreign countries).
The way a government manages it's own strategy it's clear when you see people talking about Shenzen, Guangzhou, while in Brazil places like POA and CWB even don't have a reasonable runway (even being capital of 2 of the 5 largest states of the country).
So when i see that São Paulo manages 25% of domestic traffic and about 73% of international, i use to say, Brazilian strategy isn't smart. Business place ? Yes it is, but can't handle 3x more international traffic than it generates in terms of domestic traffic. The key is connections from all Brazil, and why need to connect if there are places that can handle and support more traffic with investments ?
Of course, you're not able to fix this now and even any time soon, so Brazil will continue to need to invest in all airports for domestic market and to keep just a very big one international gateway.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4228 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
GRU is well above it's capacity and ANAC and Infraero keep opening new slots



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
So when i see that São Paulo manages 25% of domestic traffic and about 73% of international, i use to say, Brazilian strategy isn't smart.

We all know where this discussion will lead us to. And as I keep reminding you that the situation in Brazil is not different as compared to many countries, to exemply the case of South Africa with JNB, or of Spain with MAD, or pehaps France with CDG, or Chile with SCL. You cannot compare Guanzhou or Shenzen with POA or CWB because among other reaons Ghanzhou alone has an estimated population of 12 million. Brazil has GRU and GIG therefore we do have 2 gateways which should be the focus of government's investment without compromising other airport developments such as BSB.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
i use to say, Brazilian strategy isn't smart. Business place ?

We all know there are problems in the way airports are managed in Brazil but I do have to respect the management of GRU hub because it attracts airlines such as KE, EK, CA. If you look at the list of airline operations in GRU only a few airports in the developing world can create this same type of synergy. In this regard, GRU is a success story, no doubt about it. Again, this explains why GRU, and GIG, should be treated as priority. They are both enormous assets for Brazil.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
Yes, you can dictate with smart bilateral agreements and a clear slot policy, but you can't expect that airlines try another airports if they know they can fly to São Paulo

What do you think if we tell CO not to serve IAH-GIG and operate instead IAH-FOR? What do you think if we tell KE to operate ICN-LAX-MAO? Brazil will not have their business. Decentralisation is moving flights out of GRU and GIG and in my opinion is completely irrational.

Rgs,


25 LipeGIG : Agree that CAN is not POA, as well as South Africa is far from being Brazil. Well, IAH we all know is an oil city and even being such market never wa
26 Hardiwv : Business moved mainly to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. Although as we know there are important corportations located in many locations in Brazil. I a
27 LipeGIG : São Paulo even got a lot of business from Rio, and the list is huge: Brahma/Ambev, Purac, Cisper, CSN, Aracruz, TAP, Swiss, Air France, MRN, Jari, C
28 Hardiwv : I disagree, Lipe. GRU handles what is necessary for Brazil's development. Okay, there is the potential for GIG to handle more flights, and this is no
29 2travel2know : Airlines which already operate in GRU and GIG would fly to other Brazilian destinations if the market is there, regardless if those airports aren't h
30 Hardiwv : Of course, there are exceptions and we know about them. I made a general statement. But I agree with you, airlines should be free to serve any market
31 2travel2know : And more recently CNF (!) Just a technical issue, I read complains about CWB's and POA's runways, but it seems a B737-700 can make CWB-PTY or POA-PTY
32 Glareskin : And TP would probably go after POA and CWB if the infrastructure of those airports would allow for it.
33 Hardiwv : Have you seen the latest financial results of TAP and the decrease in traffic from Brazil via LIS? In an optimistic scenario TAP will keep its presen
34 Incitatus : I've commented on this type of statement many times. First - absolute first -, we live in a capitalist society where companies have to deal with lots
35 CityAirline : Isn't it suppose to say 12,553? 14,245 is the the 2007 figure for Jan-Nov, not 2008. //Alex
36 LipeGIG : Now is not a big case because of the economic downturn. But a few months ago if you say to TP that they can introduce BEL or MAO daily or add 3 weekl
37 LipeGIG : But Infraero and ANAC does not care about this as they know POA and CWB since their 90's plans will continue to be served by GRU.
38 2travel2know : I want to see the faces in Infraero and ANAC when some smart airline applies to fly from its hub to POA and CWB with narrow-body, medium/long-range a
39 LipeGIG : POA and CWB are now strong TAM fortress. If CM ask for a POA or CWB-PTY flight would be a good move. Just as a side note, CM got 797 pax from GRU to
40 SJOtoLIR : AA MIA-CNF, TP LIS-CNF as well as CM PTY-CNF commenced this year and based on the attached numbers their movements have been pretty succesful, unless
41 Hardiwv : Airlines are normal business and governments should only provide the necessary environment for airlines to carry out their work. Also, increasingly m
42 2travel2know : For airlines operating only 2 sets of hub banks, they do. In this case CM would want to offer GRU 1-2 times per hub bank. If we keep following that l
43 Glareskin : This proves your point valid that Infraero controls that GRU will continue to be the major hub in Brazil. I think POA and CWB are the more interestin
44 LipeGIG : Correct, like restrictions at CGH. Obtain a lot of 767-200, create a lot of mistakes on fleet management, but you got more seats... The huge asset of
45 2travel2know : For POA, flying international via MVD isn't such a good option. POA-MVD flights (or POA-EZE for that matter) don't really match the times when the mos
46 Incitatus : That is about the same as the GDP of Alabama, but neither Air France nor Copa nor any US carrier are lining up to offer longhaul services from Alabam
47 LipeGIG : No, not AFAIK. Agree. THe South deserves runways and a local airline. Without that, CM has a very interesting market that they may target.
48 2travel2know : Alabama has ATL (even MSY) at an accepable driving distance plus its major airport BHM is frequently connected with the major U.S. hubs thru the day.
49 LipeGIG : But nothing closer to Porto Alegre or Curitiba, i'm sure. This is just because there's no reason now to increase services (regional) in a state. As p
50 LipeGIG : Good point, if you need to drive from POA and GRU for example, be ready to lose a day. Roads in Brazil are terrible, there's no railroads, and the co
51 2travel2know : Until 2010 Brazil has a lot to learn from South Africa. Both countries have the Football World Cup Finals as a matter of national pride while the inf
52 Incitatus : I don't think Sao Paulo needs a brand new airport. GRU can do it. Now, consider the example: Why is there a single FLN-CWB flight a day? FLN-CWB has
53 Hardiwv : Of course, I am not disputing this statement. I am not saying CM should change its fleet operations. My point was that considering CM limitations in
54 2travel2know : But how different can it be flying narrowbodies between deep South America and U.S.A. via CM PTY hub than flying narrowbodies between U.S.A. airports
55 Hardiwv : Regarding CO and DL narrowbody service US-Europe I can ensure you that many pax avoid the narrowbody service. Although CO has fitted the B757-200 wit
56 LipeGIG : But 2010 could be too late for a lot of improvements. The same as they never tried CWB-CNF or CWB-SSA and both routes performs very well with high lo
57 Hardiwv : Now I agree with you. But it seems the smaller jet market was left for Azul to fill the gap. Lets see how other airlines behave after Azul starts ope
58 Glareskin : Wrong comparison IMO. What is the percentage of Alabama, or better Birmingham.compared to the total USA GDP and how is this with Porto Alegre / Curit
59 LipeGIG : Yes Hardi, but imagine what lead to concentration ? With big planes (when we compare 73G with E170 or ERJ145) TAM and GOL are unable to take care of
60 Hardiwv : GIG-NVT would do for me... A route G3 could have long explored considering it has far more "connectibity" (destinations served) in GIG as compared to
61 2travel2know : I wouldn't doubt CM desire to fly to both CWB and POA within the next 2 years. Remember the kind of runways both CWB and POA currently have, those ha
62 LipeGIG : Gol lost a lot by not considering GIG, which in fact it's their big hub with more operations than CGH or GRU, by boosting destinations and including
63 Hardiwv : I fully agree with your point. GOL could have built its regional hub in GIG serving nonstop markets such as EZE, LIM, SCL, among others, and feeding
64 LipeGIG : That's the problem of the Gol management. They are in São Paulo but their best chance of profits come from an airport in Rio. Even with this, they c
65 2travel2know : People keep writting about Azul and its SDU hub. So SDU no longer has restrictions on destinations/airports which can be served to/from? As far as I k
66 C010T3 : It will be decided until February if the restrictions are lifted of not.
67 SJOtoLIR : It isn't exactly clear if CM would apply for long-haul equipments later. In my view, the possibility of the third CM PTY-GRU or CM PTY-EZE might be f
68 LipeGIG : If they go for widebodies, i expect they will use them more to markets where they can't reach with the 737/E190 like MAD, CDG or any aliance hub far
69 SJOtoLIR : Authorities of the airline had announced last year the possibility to study operations into PTY-MAD later and using wide-bodies. However, they have n
70 Hardiwv : Thanks for the insight and I had failed to realise that CM in fact already flies multitude daily flights to destinations such as LIM, CCS and HAV. It
71 LipeGIG : It depends if CM continues on SkyTeam. If they change to Star, make more sense to fly to FRA, MUC, ZRH or even LIS. Hardi, the A320 can't fly GRU-PTY
72 Hardiwv : Correct for both above. What could be the aircraft for a possible GRU-PTY operated by TAM? I doubt TAM would deploy any bigger capacity plane to PTY
73 LipeGIG : The A319, but i'm not sure if it's so good as the B73G for extended short haul. I do believe it will need to stop at BSB or MAO, reducing it's atract
74 Incitatus : I am sorry but the south of Brazil is much less prosperous than Alabama. If you look at GDP per head, Alabama is too wealthy to be compared to the so
75 Post contains links SJOtoLIR : However, CM PTY-GUA, CM PTY-SAL, CM PTY-MGA, CM PTY-CLO and CM PTY-SJU are already sustaining code-shared cooperation with KL. CM might keep an inter
76 PPVRA : I think you misunderstood him. From what I gather, he was comparing the size of Alabama's GDP as a component of total U.S. GDP to the size of RS/SC/P
77 Hardiwv : " target=_blank>http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html In case TA and CM join TAM in Star Alliance, and taking into account LAN is part of OW,
78 LipeGIG : May be in the near future, but considering the strong network on Spanish Countries, MAD or BCN could be added in the near future. CM has a strong net
79 Incitatus : The relative economic significance with respect to their own countries does not invalidate the comparison. Even though it may be skewed up by some fa
80 PPVRA : Ah, I see, and agree. I was confused as to why you brought up PPPs earlier. In the end, we can debate this all day long, but there is a case to be ma
81 Incitatus : I whole-heartedly agree with that. The limited frequency arrangement is a bad one that distorts the market. Airlines don't make optimal routing decis
82 2travel2know : What's wrong with CM (or TP) flying to Brazilian airports other than GRU and GIG? Have to realize that CM has the advantage that unlike AA/TP which r
83 Hardiwv : I fully agree with you. In addition, GRU was the launching destination of KL B772 and KL B77W, KLM is profoundly committed to the Brazilian market. I
84 Post contains links Incitatus : Nothing. To the extent that Brazil restricts frequencies of other carriers, its special treatment of Copa (among others) is wrong. I find your reason
85 Post contains links Hardiwv : I agree that no airline should get any special treatment and in this connection I fully support open skies agreements. The Netherlands is the destina
86 LipeGIG : It's a never end discussion like you said. South of Brazil has not a single Fortune 500 Headquarters, but they have companies like Gerdau, Itaipu and
87 A388 : Is this data also from the Infraero website? I cannot find it. Do you have more of such data and possibly for the months October/November? A388
88 LipeGIG : It's from DOT reports. The last info available is for June/08
89 Incitatus : I realize we can poke holes in every region comparison. While we can call all comparisons unfair or invalid, the point remains that under different m
90 Hardiwv : Dont forget Bunge, Copel, HSBC, Sadia, Renault, Eletrosul, Embraco, Kraft Foods, Marcopolo, Tigre, Azaleia, Randon, Tupy, Busscar, and even an oil re
91 Incitatus : I downloaded Brazil's foreign trade stats with every country. I also got a table showing the number of seats offered by all airlines between Brazil a
92 2travel2know : This kind of question is what an airline gets for buying/ordering a number Brazilian made Embraer aircraft. Only one of those a really awesome market
93 SJOtoLIR : The pairs Brazil-Korea and Brazil-Japan are certainly not getting non-stop services, but we must take into account the existence of KE ICN-LAX-GRU 3x
94 LipeGIG : Thanks for the additional names. The list is huge, there's more names on all industries. And they generate a loss of traffic as some names like Weg,
95 Hardiwv : Thanks for this very interesting conclusion. It really does not surprise me at all. On the other hand, we must take into account an important caveat,
96 LipeGIG : Also, Rotterdam is the gateway for a lot of destinations in Europe. It's like Maranhao in Brazil, it's one of the largest seaports in Brazil in volum
97 Hardiwv : CA will resume PEK-MAD-GRU in March 2009 twice weekly. I struggle to understand why the flight will work this time around with conditions even toughe
98 Incitatus : Copa made a rational business decision when buying aircraft, I hope. I can't tell if you are implying that if an airline buys Embraer, then through a
99 LipeGIG : Just because Petrobras subsidiaries (among them PIFCO) are established there and "sell" oil to Brazil.
100 2travel2know : CM buying Embraer wasn't a bargain chip in order to get extra frequencies to Brazil. However, I share the believe that it was in the Brazilian govern
101 Hardiwv : It is almost certain that KLM will add Ghanzhou as a tag-on to Chengdu and therefore increase frequency to 5 weekly. But I can guarantee Chengdu is o
102 C010T3 : Because, like you said, many markets are suffering from oversupply and they don't have better place to put the aircrafts. GRU may not be that profita
103 Incitatus : If that was the case then the US would have the greatest air agreement with Brazil of all. It is by far the largest buyer of Embraer aircraft. Just C
104 C010T3 : You really don't see what's our government is all about. They have an agenda for small Latin American countries and with Copa, Panama is playing the
105 2travel2know : The CM-Embraer-ANAC/INFRAERO connection is just a part of the big picture of the relations between Panamá and Brazil. And yes, Brazil does have an a
106 Incitatus : The priorities of the Brazilian government are pretty clear to me even though I don't agree with them.
107 LipeGIG : Not only from Argentina Hardi. PIFCO in fact purchases all oil Brazil need to import (light oil, to mix with the heavy oil). Looking how because of A
108 Incitatus : I looked up Copa's 737 performance at CWB and it does not look good. CWB is 3000 ft above sea level with a 7260ft runway. If the information I have a
109 C010T3 : Neither do I.
110 2travel2know : Thanks for the info amigo a.netter. Out of curiosity, Would a B737-600 fly CWB-PTY (or even CWB-FOR) without any restriction?
111 Incitatus : Nope for PTY. It comes back at 65 to 80 passengers. The load will vary because of weather conditions. For example, say Copa is flying CWB on pattern
112 Hardiwv : Thanks for the very interesting information. CM could address the problem with an intermediary stop-over such as operating POA via MVD or ASU, althou
113 LipeGIG : This shows how is imperative to increase CWB runway, or to have a new one. Even a 737 faces restrictions as it's a shame. POA should be the best mark
114 Hardiwv : Agree, but I personally think POA offers even more opportunities/market than BSB. As I mentioned, POA could also be operated via MVD in a triangular
115 LipeGIG : Considering Business only, you're right. But looking for Governments, imagine that Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Nicaragua, Panama, Mexico and
116 SJOtoLIR : Copa does not fly to Paraguay. Probably, the original idea was: TA LIM-ASU-MVD 3x weekly and TA LIM-MVD 4x weekly. No traffic rights between Paraguay
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