Ushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2888 posts, RR: 18 Posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6821 times:
So here is the deal. My best friend went over to see his girl friend in SEA yesterday. He flew on LH 436 from DUS to ORD to connect to UA 949.
He boarded the plan on time, then sat in it for THREE HOURS and after that it was cancelled due to UA's failure to de-ice the plane. To make matters worse, UA did NOT provide accomodation to him or any other (Y) passenger for the night. He was lucky enough to get on the early flight to SEA today. On UA's website cx due to wx. Hardly. What a joke.
The later flight to SEA left without any troubles making me think that this is clearly UA's fault because they are incapable. What actions should be taken?
Flights were booked through LH...
Thanks a lot.
The problem is that he is a lot nicer than I am. I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16819 posts, RR: 57 Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6801 times:
A lawsuit for breach of contract and possibly criminal charges for corporate fraud.
If it can be demonstrated that the airline lied and blamed the cancellation on WX when it was actually due to another factor, and then the airline used that as a reason to not provide contractually obligated accommodations, that is breach of contract and fraud.
Now, whether you are willing to engage an attorney and go after UA is another question. But this is a big pet peeve of mine. I once had a delay blamed on WX on AA. Now what "WX" only affects one flight, causes them to open the #2 engine, stand around looking puzzled at it, and then switch equipment from a 767 to a 757?
Smcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6775 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
A lawsuit for breach of contract and possibly criminal charges for corporate fraud.
If it can be demonstrated that the airline lied and blamed the cancellation on WX when it was actually due to another factor, and then the airline used that as a reason to not provide contractually obligated accommodations, that is breach of contract and fraud.
Sounds more like them having 2-3" of snow yesterday, along with high winds at times, and more than just his flight to deice. Doubtful that you get farther than nothing for his effort. Not all flights are sent because of a number of factors in an already bad weather week...
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5337 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6740 times:
Something like 500 flights were canceld out of ORD tuesday along with another 100 so far today....WX at ORD was to blame.
Smcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6716 times:
Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter): To make matters worse, UA did NOT provide accomodation to him or any other (Y) passenger for the night.
Why would they? You've been around this board long enough to know this tactic doesn't work here. It's been hell the last week in Southern Wisconsin and Northern Illinois, much less the rest of the country. Not to mention the huge snow totals Seattle just got. There is an exception for WEATHER in the Contract of Carriage that would keep the airline from being liable for a room and any other charges you want to concoct...
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3033 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6717 times:
Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter): The problem is that he is a lot nicer than I am. I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.
Yes, well the problem here in the US, is that we don't have a passenger bill of rights, therefore they would probably laugh at you if you demanded as such - unless you're an elite and then maybe they may not laugh as hard. US airlines aren't obligated to give you anything in the event of a weather delay, and most of them won't.
You do realize that ORD got six inches of snow yesterday, don't you? How is that "hardly" a weather delay?
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5337 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6689 times:
Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 4): Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
To make matters worse, UA did NOT provide accomodation to him or any other (Y) passenger for the night.
Why would they? You've been around this board long enough to know this tactic doesn't work here.
Exactly.... United is not, or any US airline for that matter, going to put up Y class passengers overnight due to weather cancellations. UA will if you are traveling F or J but the best your going to get in Y is a voucher good for a discount at one of the hotels surrounding ORD.
ChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1605 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6690 times:
Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter): The problem is that he is a lot nicer than I am. I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.
The airline owes your friend nothing. Pay attention to travel conditions before you leave home. This did not happen overnight. Planning. He did not do it and is blaming the airline.
I'm sure there are hundreds more people at ORD that were not as nice as him, yet still slept on that floor.
Even if you were not nice, you did not deserve compensation nor does your friend. Suck it up, travel in these conditions, pay the price.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1): A lawsuit for breach of contract and possibly criminal charges for corporate fraud.
And, of course someone jumps on the bandwagon. While your case may be different, this is obviously weather. It's takes about 2 seconds of watching the news.
Steex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1425 posts, RR: 9 Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6677 times:
Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter): I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.
This last statement really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You're saying that you would take it to UA especially because they were able to send out other flights. So are you suggesting that weather cancellations have to be an all-or-nothing decision or you won't believe the airline? As you surely know, weather results in greatly reduced airport capacity, but doesn't necessarily reduce it to zero. The airlines usually do everything they can to get every flight they can in the air, but winter weather in particular is going to result in a lot of cancellations.
Being in the Chicago area yesterday, I can assure you any claims to weather disruptions at ORD (or MDW) were legitimate. It is certainly frustrating for your friend to have suffered a cancellation in that manner, but the fact that UA was trying to get the flight off before making the decision to cancel doesn't mean that weather was not the underlying cause.
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2118 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6645 times:
11 FAA advisories from the FAA for ORD on 23Dec....4 of them Ground Stops...all due weather. Temps ranged from 7 to 35F... 0.27 of frozen precip....wind gusts 25-30 kts....visibilities down as low as 0.2 miles for several hours.
Apparently the original poster knows far better about conditions at ORD than the FAA and the National Weather Service and wants to sue.
Steex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1425 posts, RR: 9 Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6577 times:
This proves nothing, though. Though cancellations were massive, a relative few lucky flights made it out. Given that SEA is an important destination for UA, I'm sure they were trying not to cancel the ORD-SEA flights, I'm sure plenty of other destinations saw cancellations across the board. Your friend just happened to be on one of the flights that didn't make it out; that makes it no less the fault of weather.
TheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1110 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6577 times:
Really, sue the airline? Comon, Doc you're smarter than that. This is Chicago, in the middle of winter.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
If it can be demonstrated that the airline lied and blamed the cancellation on WX when it was actually due to another factor, and then the airline used that as a reason to not provide contractually obligated accommodations, that is breach of contract and fraud.
Alright, judging by the departure time, I found quite the ground delay program in effect for ORD at about the departure time of your friends flight. The weather obviously was pretty messy with aircraft piling up on the ground possibly waiting to get deiced.
Note: Delay times are in minutes.
At 526 lcl:
ATCSCC ADVZY 063 ORD/ZAU 12/23/2008 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: ORD
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 2327Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 23/2327Z - 24/0459Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 23/1300Z - 24/0459Z
PROGRAM RATE: 58
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP ZDV
ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZAU
MAXIMUM DELAY: 807
AVERAGE DELAY: 214
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / SNOW-ICE
COMMENTS: WEST OPS. PRGM REVISED. PLEASE RLS ACFT ON RVSD EDCT'S.
EFFECTIVE TIME:
232328 - 240559
About two hours later, 718 lcl, ORD and MDW went on a ground stop.
RAW TEXT:
ATCSCC ADVZY 016 ORD/ZAU 12/24/08 GROUND STOP CANCELLATION
DESTINATION AIRPORT: ORD
RELEASED FACILITIES: ALL
REMARKS: THE GROUND DELAY PROGRAM IS STILL AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN EFFECT BUT WILL NOT BE
REVISED AT THIS TIME.
240328-240459
08/12/24 03:28
The GDP was cancelled twenty minutes after that, at 848 lcl:
ATCSCC ADVZY 019 ORD/ZAU 12/24/2008 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM CNX
CTL ELEMENT: ORD
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0348Z
GDP CNX PERIOD: 24/0348Z - 24/2333Z
DISREGARD EDCTS FOR DEST ORD
COMMENTS:
240351-250033
08/12/24 03:53
Obviously, these are arrival delays. However, are a reflection of the conditions on the ground, especially in ORD.
Furthermore, for the crew to legally depart, they need to realistically be able to reach Seattle before reaching their maximum duty day, including the contractual post flight duty time. United shows the flight to be 4 hours and 35 minutes. So if they are still in the deice line at 11 hours of duty, the crew would be pushing their maximum duty of 16 hours.
It is doubtful that UA had a full fresh crew waiting on the ground in ORD to swap out and try again. Especially at a large airline like UA, it's just easier to cancel a flight and accommodate passengers than to continue burning fuel for what could be a futile effort.
Arguing which caused the cancellation, crew duty issues or weather, is like arguing whether the chicken or the egg came first. One did lead to the other and right or wrong, UA is going to blame it on the weather.
This definitely was not a mechanical delay.
Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter): The problem is that he is a lot nicer than I am. I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.
With what? It was obviously snowing and deicing operations were in effect. At this point you would have needed the agent's help to reach your destination. Yelling at them for something outside of their control and "demanding compensation" would have gotten you no where.
Furthermore, the fact they sent out a flight the same day has no bearing on the situation. To me it seems that weather probably did cause the cancellation and, as I'm sure you are aware, weather changes throughout the day and that is compounded by airport arrival and departure rates and the deice rate for the airport.
While it was a major inconvenience, the airline did get your friend to his destination the next morning.
This is also why I avoid flying through Chicago or any NE hub in the winter unless I absolutely have to because the chances of something like this occurring is very high.
Checko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5337 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6533 times:
3+ hours late at 2322 arriving into SEA at 0214....sorry but your friends flight was canceled due to weather. I realize that the ability exists for the airlines to abuse the system and say a flight was canceled to due to weather to avoid paying compensation but in this case there is absolutely no doubt that the flight was canceled due to a snow/wind storm moving through ORD. UA was not able to operate the flight safely due to the weather conditions therefore it (along with 500 others) was canceled, I would suggest complaining to mother nature.
Ushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2888 posts, RR: 18 Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6533 times:
Quoting Steex (Reply 11):
This is also why I avoid flying through Chicago or any NE hub in the winter unless I absolutely have to because the chances of something like this occurring is very high.
That is what I have been telling him for ages. Hopefully he will finally listen.
DL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2039 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6495 times:
Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter): He boarded the plan on time, then sat in it for THREE HOURS and after that it was cancelled due to UA's failure to de-ice the plane.
So, if weather were not an issue, then the flight would have left without a hitch. In the end, weather was the root cause for this delay/cancellation.
Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter): UA did NOT provide accomodation to him or any other (Y) passenger for the night.
Nor should they. Weather delays/cancellations are not the fault of the airlines. Any traveler flying through northern climes in the winter should be prepared for this type of scenario.
Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter): I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.
Good luck with that. That stance is more likely to get you escorted out of the terminal now-a-days.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6455 times:
Having flown from ORD myself yesterday and watched the massive board of cancellations from all carriers, not just UA, I can say you best keep your meterological determinations to your side of the pond.
ORD was a disaster yesterday. You couldn't see the field from the ramp it was snowing so hard, not to mention all of southern IL, IA and the region also being pounded.
Your friend was lucky he arrived at ORD in the first place.
Saab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 12 Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6445 times:
Welcome to aviation in the United States. It was probably more reliable in the old Soviet Union. The cutbacks here have been extremely deep and it only works well when weather conditions are ideal and there are no mechanical issues.
As soon as something like a weather event shows up things fall apart and fast.
Flying the US is for the most part unpleasant and unreliable.
TheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1110 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6371 times:
Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 18): Welcome to aviation in the United States. It was probably more reliable in the old Soviet Union. The cutbacks here have been extremely deep and it only works well when weather conditions are ideal and there are no mechanical issues.
As soon as something like a weather event shows up things fall apart and fast.
Flying the US is for the most part unpleasant and unreliable.
Flamebait??
ORD is the equivalent of (actually busier than) LHR or CDG and I sincerely doubt that they would have handled the same situation any better.
Judging the US ATC system against a much less busy and more bureaucratic European ATC system, is poor and unequal comparison.
Checko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
DL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2039 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6355 times:
Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 18): As soon as something like a weather event shows up things fall apart and fast.
Flying the US is for the most part unpleasant and unreliable.
I have had many similar experiences in Europe not to mention all of the disruptions caused by the multitude of wildcat strikes (but that's for another thread) that are so prevalent over there. ORD is the 2nd busiest airport in the world and operates pretty well most of the time. However, when you throw wind, ice, snow, low ceilings, slippery runways, sub zero temps, etc, into the mix, surely one should understand that things may not operate normally, even deicers as in this case.
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6319 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15): this isn't the EU.... we are a little more realistic about what we expect over here. And we also don't punish companies for acts of nature.
Nope, I wouldn't put it exactly like that and it's your opinion only. One could also add your expectations are never high anyhow and, furthermore, much more tolerant of fraudulent reasons. But......that's usually irrelevant to those who's only concern is 'profit'. Could I safely assume then that your stance would mean if the same thing happened in the EU you would obviously refuse any of the compensation offered?
BlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2515 posts, RR: 25 Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6290 times:
Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 20): Judging the US ATC system against a much less busy and more bureaucratic European ATC system, is poor and unequal comparison.
Making such uninformed and incorrect assumptions is as equally irresponsible.
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3033 posts, RR: 3 Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6283 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 22): One could also add your expectations are never high anyhow and, furthermore, much more tolerant of fraudulent reasons. But......that's usually irrelevant to those who's only concern is 'profit'.
The fact that this wasn't a "fraudulent reason" makes your opinion irrelevant.
Dfwagt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 75 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6271 times:
How much was the ticket? People that are after compensation from air carriers everytime something goes haywire drive me up the wall. Just stay home.
25 TANS: You wouldn’t (in the vast majority of cases) get any compensation from a European airline either if the cancellation was due to weather. The key he
26 Mir: INOP equipment on the plane that is needed to fly into the weather that is forecast enroute or at the destination. Is it MX, or is it WX? Both are le
27 Saab2000: Call it what you want. It's not flame bait. I am a captain for a US carrier and used to fly in Europe for LX. No, it's not perfect there either, but g
28 C767P: I think this is what is wrong with air travel today. Not the airlines, but passengers demanding things and being angry about it. From examples given
29 Moose135: So let me see if I understand you. Let's say the ILS receiver is dead (ignoring MEL considerations). If the weather at the destination is forecast to
30 ORDflier: So what were you expecting UA to do? Take all the customers off of the later flight that were confirmed on it and accommodate your friend? I am willin
31 Hiflyer: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4257374/ According to www.orf.at (german only) AZ had about 100 flights cancelled ye
32 Mir: Yes, it would be legitimate. It would be very sneaky, and if I were a pax on that flight I'd be pretty pissed at not being compensated for the delay.
33 Ushermittwoch: The fact of the matter is, usually US carries recognize the fact that international pax have priority and do get accomodation paid for (for traffic, m
34 Isitsafenow: Heres my worth... Next time he wants to come to the USA, make it in May. No real weather problems at that time of year... safe
35 MrSkyGuy: Funny I happened across this post mere minutes after reading an entry at a new airline blog I discovered this week: http://www.airlinecrazy.com/?p=285
36 RFields5421: Yes - if the scheduled aircraft does not have operating equipment which would make the flight legal in the predicted weather, but equipment to make t
37 LAXintl: Frankly things such as fare paid, frequent flyer status are much more important then if a person is on a international trip or not. Ultimately the ai
38 Mir: I doubt they're taken by surprise. I think it's cost-cutting. If the airlines knew that this sort of thing would happen on x day at y airport, I guar
39 Stitch: That is because weather changes and airports don't cease operations for the rest of the day when weather first inhibits/prevents them. A few years ba
41 DL Widget Head: That's not what the CO contract of carriage document says at page 33, rule 24, subsection F, item 1, section c where it states that lodging will NOT
42 Hiflyer: Stitch...good stories there. No carrier wants to deliberately strand pax anywhere at anytime....all carriers would far far prefer to get pax out...its
43 Isitsafenow: Opps....... I forgot about those "early summer Texas breezes"...you know, those round things that hang down from clouds... safe
44 Xdlx: Not exactly accurate.... but the arrival/departure rate of a facility, should be determined by its ability to operate under the most extreme weather.
45 Mir: If you do that, you're seriously wasting capacity, since you will rarely see that sort of weather. It makes sense to base your capacity off of MVFR c
46 Saab2000: Touched a nerve, I know, but I stand by what I say. I was trying to commute home 4 days ago. Stuck in ORD for 7 hours before I went to my personal alt
47 Xdlx: Good you've got my point, the facility can absorb and help mitigate the effect of marginal weather. The problem is the scheduling practices must have
48 Ushermittwoch: Just got my friends update. It was four hours. And OF COURSE his luggage got misplaced. Merry Christmas....
49 Jetdeltamsy: And you would have received nothing. Chicago had a dramatic weather event yesterday. Hundreds of flights were canceled due to weather.
50 United1: Four hours of what? No UA flight between ORD and SEA was 4 hours late today....
51 Gigneil: This is a transcript of a travel segment on CNN. Hard to read, but parts are quite relevant: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0704/14/bt.01.html
52 Lfutia: I worked yesterday at ORD. I waited 1,5 hours for an aircraft to park at a gate that had 2 wheelchair passengers onboard. The weather sucked big time
53 Smcmac32msn: It is a 4 hour flight ORD-SEA...... you act like they took him to LGA first?!
54 Maverick623: I smell something. As an airline pilot, you should know that it only takes 20 planes per truck to create a 1 hour backlog for de-icing. I'll tell you
55 UN_B732: fortunately ORD wasn't as bad tonight. Still quite a few delays, but not the mass cancellations of yesterday. I got in late from DME, but blocked into
56 B707forever: Too true and it's certainly time that a real passenger bill of rights be approved, a la the European policies. And in the name of fairness, non-revs
57 Brilondon: I agree this is completely weather related and thus does not fall under any clause that would provide you with compensation. This is after all winter
58 Gsosbee: If you fly to ORD or JFK as a transfer passenger in the winter, (1) you have to be crazy; (2) have to get to the midwest or upstate NY very bad; (3) v
59 Apodino: I flew through ORD yesterday and had no problem. Our planed didn't even need to get deiced leaving either, since there was no snow.
60 CIDFlyer: This is why I never book winter travel through anywhere like ORD or DEN. You are just asking for something to happen. You would have better chances th
61 44k: Neither are EU airlines. They are only obligated to compensate you when the cancelation/delay is due to their fault. Ditto. The airline didn't strand
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