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Parallel Landing At EWR?  
User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5763 times:

i came a cross this video on flightlevel350.com and it shows 2 ERJ'S parallel landing since when did they parallel land at EWR?

Here's the video:
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...pressJet_Aviation_Video-11117.html

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6767 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5685 times:

Since they've only got the two parallels it doesn't happen much-- but it's always been legal.

User currently offlineCOEWRNJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1064 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5592 times:

That's really cool. I've never seen that done at EWR before and that's my home airport.

User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5510 times:

I wonder why this isn't done more often - yes, I realize it requires good weather, which is never a given at EWR.

That said, it seems like this would be a handy tool to more quickly clear the backlog of arrivals after, say, a thunderstorm hits EWR. In my mind (which doesn't count for much), it would seem like a good idea if it avoids a day-long GDP or diversions, even at the expense of a longer departure queue.

What am I missing?


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16810 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5471 times:



Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 3):
I wonder why this isn't done more often - yes, I realize it requires good weather, which is never a given at EWR.

That said, it seems like this would be a handy tool to more quickly clear the backlog of arrivals after, say, a thunderstorm hits EWR. In my mind (which doesn't count for much), it would seem like a good idea if it avoids a day-long GDP or diversions, even at the expense of a longer departure queue.

What am I missing?

I think the type of procedure demonstrated in the video is what the FAA, CO and the Port Authority are working towards making more the norm rather than the abnormal at EWR. I've seen the dual approaches once or twice at EWR, the PA recently announced a joint test with the FAA and CO utilize GPS based navigation as well as ILS upgrades to EWR.

http://www.panynj.gov/AboutthePortAu...ses/PressRelease/index.php?id=1174

Also check out this quote:

Quote:
The so-called Ground-based Augmentation System will be a demonstration project that should be more accurate, partly because its signals are not blocked by hills or buildings. It also will enable aircraft to take curving approaches instead of limiting them to straight ones.

http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN1762003220081217



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21494 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5407 times:

They can do it, in visual conditions only. They could do it in IMC as well, but the separation limitations would be such that they might as well consolidate all the arrivals onto one runway and use the other for departures.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

That really only happens at EWR under one scenario.

Approach somehow gets jammed up and can barely find a hole to put someone in for final.

They check on with tower and the controller sees that the spacing is barely going to work at all and in fact it might not work out since the second plane is only maybe 2-2.5 miles in trail of the one ahead.

Meanwhile there is no line for takeoff for the inner parallel. Tower offers the trailing aircraft a sidestep to land on the inner and then the separation is no longer an issue.


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9763 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5300 times:
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Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 3):
I wonder why this isn't done more often - yes, I realize it requires good weather, which is never a given at EWR.

I'd assume the simple answer is so they can keep a runway open for departures - at least during heavy departure times. That way, they can have a departure in position and holding, and have it start it's takeoff as soon as the arrival has crossed the threshold or so.

But I'm sure that doesn't apply to all situations.

Quoting EwRkId (Thread starter):
i came a cross this video on flightlevel350.com and it shows 2 ERJ'S parallel landing since when did they parallel land at EWR?

Just FYI, they do the same thing at LAX occasionally in good weather. That is, they'll have parallel landings on 25R and 25L, or on 24R and 24L. Suppose they also do it at SFO.

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
They can do it, in visual conditions only. They could do it in IMC as well, but the separation limitations would be such that they might as well consolidate all the arrivals onto one runway and use the other for departures.

Well, they couldn't do the same exact thing in IMC. That is, not parallel, simultaneous approaches, I wouldn't think. I always get this terminology mixed up, though.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5290 times:



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 7):
Suppose they also do it at SFO.

-i thought at SFO it was a normal procedure, they have parallel arrivals on 28 L and R and parallel take offs on 19 L and R


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2370 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4601 times:



Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):
Tower offers the trailing aircraft a sidestep to land on the inner and then the separation is no longer an issue.

To go from 2-2.5 miles to parallel means that one aircraft was really not respecting the speed restriction ATC was giving him. What you are describing does happen, but the video doesn't show that, in my opinion anyways. The video shows ATC bringing a plane deliberately on the departure runway, possibly due to an overflow of arrivals or a lack of departures, or both.

In an ATC point of view, for the video you just saw to happen, one aircraft must be on a visual approach and possibly with a requirement to have the other aircraft in sight (maybe the latter is not required). The other aircraft can be on an ILS approach, or a visual, doesn't matter.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21494 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4512 times:



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 7):
Well, they couldn't do the same exact thing in IMC. That is, not parallel, simultaneous approaches, I wouldn't think. I always get this terminology mixed up, though.

True. The aircraft would have to be staggered.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16810 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4467 times:

As I mentioned previously I've seen this occur once or twice,

One aircraft makes the usual approach to 4R, almost straight up the Turnpike from the Raritan River. The aircraft that lands parallel on 4L comes in from the West over Downtown Elizabeth and then turns North onto the approach for 4L right above the Shoprite warehouse next to the Turnpike. The aircraft landing on 4L turns onto the approach right behind the aircraft approach 4R, it's a cool sight.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineYtib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 567 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4467 times:



Quoting EwRkId (Reply 8):
-i thought at SFO it was a normal procedure, they have parallel arrivals on 28 L and R and parallel take offs on 19 L and R

Yep, since they added the LDA PRM approaches it does make it more possible to do this. However during low mins I believe they can't use this option since the last few miles need to be visual.


User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4105 times:



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
To go from 2-2.5 miles to parallel means that one aircraft was really not respecting the speed restriction ATC was giving him. What you are describing does happen, but the video doesn't show that, in my opinion anyways. The video shows ATC bringing a plane deliberately on the departure runway, possibly due to an overflow of arrivals or a lack of departures, or both.

Right, but I think this happened because approach or tower knew that there would not be a hole big enough anywhere and the line for takeoffs was short.


User currently offlineCokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1174 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4043 times:

Didn't a few years ago, a CO a/c had a "problem" (possible with an airspeed indicator) and a DL jet came in next to them and they landed on the pararel runways in EWR.

User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2370 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3650 times:



Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 13):
tower knew

Of course ! In a situation like this, the terminal controller has to get the approval from tower in order to bring in a plane on the departing runway. Communication between tower and terminal is a key component in all of this.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21494 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2781 times:



Quoting Ytib (Reply 12):
Yep, since they added the LDA PRM approaches it does make it more possible to do this. However during low mins I believe they can't use this option since the last few miles need to be visual.

Correct. This is why SFO can get delays if fog rolls in - their arrival rate is halved.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
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