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Widebodies At EWR In The 80s  
User currently offline747buff From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 744 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6198 times:

Hello all,

I was looking through the old photos on here and noticed that most of the major airlines flew widebodies in and out of Newark in the 80s. And I'm talking about when People Express was around before CO took over and built today's megahub. Some examples:

Northwest (DC10s)
Eastern (L1011s, A300s)
Delta (L1011s)
United (DC10s, 747s)
American (DC10s)

And even Continental flew DC10s there before they even had a big East Coast presence! I think this must have been more widebodies than all of the PEX 747 flights!

So I am curious: Other than PE, just how much demand was there at EWR back then?

Thanks,

-Andrew


At Eastern, we earn our wings every day!
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5527 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

We flew the A300 to EWR, too. We did the DC-10-10 and -30s along with the 747s.

[Edited 2008-12-27 16:27:34]


You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6133 times:

At one point in the 80's I distinctly remember flying a Delta L-1011 from CVG to EWR. I believe it later changed to CVG-LGA. For many years there was always an evening L-1011 and then sometimes, 767 from CVG to NYC, BOS, sometimes BDL too. Those were the days.


Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6126 times:

Also in the late eighties, I seem to remember Delta trying their first "traditional" transcon with 767-200's from EWR to LAX to complement it's newly acquired WA hub at LAX. I suppose they chose EWR instead of JFK as at the time, they had significantly more flights out of EWR until the JFK hub from PA came along in 1991. Anyone remember that or have I had too much scotch?


Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6931 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6110 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 3):
Also in the late eighties, I seem to remember Delta trying their first "traditional" transcon with 767-200's from EWR to LAX to complement it's newly acquired WA hub at LAX. I suppose they chose EWR instead of JFK as at the time, they had significantly more flights out of EWR until the JFK hub from PA came along in 1991. Anyone remember that or have I had too much scotch?

Haha, maybe you've had too much scotch but i think your correct. I remember reading some DL scheds. from the early 1990s (specifically 1994) and DL indeed did have EWR-LAX on 762s. However, I'm not sure when they started and stopped the services.

UA in the 1980s and 1990s was a powerhouse for widebodies at EWR. 741/2s and DC-10s to DEN/ORD/SFO/LAX. In the early 1990s UA flew EWR-HNL/NRT on 747s plus the LHR run which started in either the very late 80s or very early 90s on a 747 classic as well.

AA flew the DC-10s to ORD/DFW/SJU in the 1980s.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6086 times:



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 4):
In the early 1990s UA flew EWR-HNL/NRT on 747s

Don't think anybody's ever found a UA timetable showing EWR-HNL nonstop.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6055 times:

Why did UA suspend NRT-EWR? Wasn't it doing well? Any chance of a come back if UA merges with CO?

No idea why UA suspended HKG-NRT even


User currently offline747buff From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5988 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 5):
Don't think anybody's ever found a UA timetable showing EWR-HNL nonstop.

I don't know about HNL either, but I remember a timetable I had around '92 or 93 showing EWR-NRT.



At Eastern, we earn our wings every day!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5961 times:

This is the early 1980s, but I suppose it counts:

National Airlines DC-10s
Pan Am DC-10s (PA took over National)


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5956 times:



Quoting United Airline (Reply 6):
Why did UA suspend NRT-EWR? Wasn't it doing well? /quote]

UA operated EWR-NRT nonstop from 1989-1998, they dropped the route when CO launched EWR-NRT.

[quote=United Airline,reply=6]Any chance of a come back if UA merges with CO?

CO has been flying EWR-NRT for 10+ years now, so obviously if UA and CO merged one of the combined company's routes would be the existing EWR-NRT route.

The thing about domestic widebodies at most US airports including EWR back in the '70s and '80s was the fact that there were much less frequencies.

Quoting 747buff (Thread starter):
Northwest (DC10s)
Eastern (L1011s, A300s)
Delta (L1011s)
United (DC10s, 747s)
American (DC10s)

Add to that list:

TWA L1011s (STL) and 767-200s (CDG '92)
DL 767-200s (LAX twice daily), 767-300 (FRA)
Pan Am L1011-500s, DC-10-10s
World Airways (DC-10-30s)

I flew Pan Am EWR-TPA on a DC-10 and TPA-EWR on a L1011-500, this was '82 or '83.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5952 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Add to that list:

TWA L1011s (STL) and 767-200s (CDG '92)

Didn't TWA fly those L1011s on to LHR before they sold the route to AA?


User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5951 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 3):
I seem to remember Delta trying their first "traditional" transcon with 767-200's from EWR to LAX to complement it's newly acquired WA hub at LAX.

Correct you are, my friend.....

The April 1, 1990 Delta timetable shows no such service. So it must have started before or on the effective date of the Delta July 1, 1990 timetable.....

Effective July 1, 1990....

EWR-LAX DL 235 8:10am-10:50am 767
EWR-LAX DL 237 5:10pm-7:55pm 767
EWR-LAX DL 241 8:35pm-11:20pm 767

The three daily wide-bodies remained until the April 1, 1992 timetable when Delta added three daily nonstop wide-bodies from JFK to LAX. The EWR-LAX run was decreased to twice daily and the two remaining flights were downgraded to 757s.

By the June 1, 1992 timetable, all EWR-LAX flights had ended.

Greg
www.departedflights.com


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3669 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5940 times:



Quoting 747buff (Thread starter):
So I am curious: Other than PE, just how much demand was there at EWR back then?

I flew out of EWR at least twice a year during most of the 1980's. I distinctly remember the airport being almost dead in the first part of the decade, and practically bursting at the seams in the latter part of the decade. I am not sure if that was true of the entire airport or just the terminals I was using and the times when I was using them, but that was my experience.

I remember flying United DC-10's and DC-8's, Northwest DC-10's and 747's, People Express 747's, Continental DC-10's, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some... mostly on flights to OAK or SFO (the PE flights were to somewhere else, though I forget where now).

In the early part of the decade I mostly flew out of terminal A, which seemed very large for the number of passengers I normally saw there. It really didn't have the feel of a New York area airport, more of a regional New Jersey airport. There were only ever a few airplanes at each terminal at any given time. No airplane I ever rode on was full, although they weren't empty either. 50-60% full is about what I remember on most trips. I do remember flying first class on one trip and being the only person in the cabin.

The first time I flew PE was out of the old terminal, what was it, the North terminal? That was the first time I'd ever describe EWR as what I'd call crowded. And it was like a packed bus station, it was pretty unpleasant. And PE seemed to own the airport for a while, in the same way CO does now. You could probably credit them with putting that airport on the map. Even when they were absorbed by CO, a lot more people had experienced flying out of EWR by that point than had before. Not that it was a great experience, but at least it was something familiar.

When terminal C opened it wasn't much better. I remember when they first opened it, a lot of parts were still unfinished and the check-in counters seemed right up against the windows, so there was almost no room in there. And there weren't enough seats, so a lot of people (including me) ended up sitting on the floor to wait for their planes. That was when terminal C was basically the PE terminal. Of course now it is basically the CO terminal, and from the pictures I've seen it is much nicer.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5917 times:



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 4):
UA flew EWR-HNL/NRT on 747s plus the LHR run which started in either the very late 80s or very early 90s on a 747 classic as well



Quoting Timz (Reply 5):
Don't think anybody's ever found a UA timetable showing EWR-HNL nonstop.

I will admit....there are holes in my United timetable collection....but nothing I have from that time period shows a EWR-HNL nonstop....

As far as Tokyo....

the first UA timetable i have showing EWR-NRT service is dated May 1, 1991 (i am missing several prior to that date, however....)

EWR-NRT UA 803 11:10am-1:55pm(+1) 747

The July 4, 1995 timetable still shows the same flight operating.

The next timetable I have (as i said...there are gaps) is June 5, 1997. The EWR-NRT service has been terminated by then.

Greg
www.departedflights.com


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5917 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
The thing about domestic widebodies at most US airports including EWR back in the '70s and '80s was the fact that there were much less frequencies.

And just to note... the legacy airlines largely scheduled their smaller widebody aircraft on EWR routes.

TW and NW for example never flew 747s into EWR.

Apparently AA did to LAX but only for a very short time.

And UA used 747s from EWR to ORD, SFO, NRT and LHR (usually SP on the LHR).

The legacy airlines had no problem though putting 747s on their routes out of JFK:

AA: JFK-BDA/SJU/LAX
TW: JFK-LAX/SFO
NW: JFK-MKE/MSP (yes MKE at one time!)
UA: JFK-LAX/NRT/LHR/ORD
NA: JFK-MIA (though this was in the 70s)
EA: JFK-MIA (also just in the 70s)


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5872 times:

Terminal C never opened as a PeoplExpress Terminal, when CO took over PE and NY AIr they moved everything to Terminal B as Terminal C was not yet complete. The only flights from Terminal C were the London, Brussels, LAX and SFO 747 flights, COEX remained at the North Terminal.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3669 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5834 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 14):
TW and NW for example never flew 747s into EWR.

This is not exactly accurate, as I took Northwest Orient 747's to and from EWR several times. They were probably equipment subs. But it's not true to say NW "never flew" 747's into EWR - they did, at least occasionally.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Terminal C never opened as a PeoplExpress Terminal, when CO took over PE and NY AIr they moved everything to Terminal B as Terminal C was not yet complete.

I've always been a little confused about this. I know CO took over PE before terminal C actually opened. But I distinctly remember a giant "PEOPLExpress" sign that covered basically the entire interior of the terminal and was easily visible from the outside, from as far away as terminal A. And as I said, I remember using the terminal under that sign, before it was fully complete, with many areas of the terminal still blocked off and a temporary check-in area right up close to the terminal entrance.

Am I actually remembering terminal B? Why would they have had all this temporary stuff set up there?



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5795 times:

When SK was close to Frank Lorenzo CO and Eastern, SK moved their CPH/OSL/ARN - JFK to EWR.
SK was then flying B767 or DC10. Don't think SK ever took their DC8S to EWR.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5796 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 16):
I've always been a little confused about this. I know CO took over PE before terminal C actually opened. But I distinctly remember a giant "PEOPLExpress" sign that covered basically the entire interior of the terminal and was easily visible from the outside, from as far away as terminal A. And as I said, I remember using the terminal under that sign, before it was fully complete, with many areas of the terminal still blocked off and a temporary check-in area right up close to the terminal entrance.

Am I actually remembering terminal B? Why would they have had all this temporary stuff set up there?

It's tricky but here goes:

Terminal C existed prior to the PeoplExpress construction, however it was just a shell. The only operational part of Terminal C prior to 1988 was a two gate stub concourse that acted as the airport's Customs and Immigration hall. It's also where PeoplExpress's 747 flights arrived / departed. My Mom and I dropped off my Aunt and Uncle for a Virgin Atlantic flight in 1985 or '86 and the entire terminal was dark save for the little stub concourse. The stub concourse remained part of Terminal C until CO began the Global Gateway project in 1999, I actually flew out of the two gate stub concourse in 1995 on a CO A300 to Orlando. It was very bare over on that side of the terminal, looked like a bus station.

The overwhelming success of PeoplExpress (who I flew many times) drove EWR to the top of NYC's airports, during the 1980s EWR was the busiest NYC airport due to the success of PE. Around 1985 PE and the Port Authority began a project to complete Terminal C, it was a major project and I have the PeoplExpress magazines detailing their plans. A few months after construction was started the Texas Air Corporation took over PeoplExpress and merged PE as well as New York Air into CO, just prior to competing the PE integration CO actually had a hub at IAD with flights to LAX that they inherited from New York Air. They decided to trade the IAD operation to UA in exchange for UA's CLE hub.

CO did not want anything to do with the North Terminal, I don't blame them. Around this time the Texas Air Corporation also acquired Eastern Air Lines, the day the merger of PE and CO took place they vacated the North Terminal and decided to cram their operations into Terminal B. Eastern and New York Air were already in Terminal B, Eastern had quite a few gates so they reduced their flying a bit in order to accomodate the new CO hub.

All CO flights after the NY Air and PE merger operated from Terminal B except for the Wide Body flights to California and Europe which continued to operate from the two gate stub concourse at Terminal C. Also at this time Eastern's Express operations at EWR transfered to CO, the new COEX operation operated from the North Terminal.

This mess went on for two years, in 1988 Terminal C was completed and all CO and COEX operations moved to the new Terminal.

If you check out Terminal B's concourse 1 and concours 2 you can see where CO modified the gates to handle more aircraft. CO had about 30 gates at the B-1 and B-2 concourses, DL was in B-3 with Eastern.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...6337&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

If you navigate the picture in the above link you will see at Terminal B concourses 1 and two the former double gates which are no longer there.

BTW..

After CO moved to Terminal C Eastern built back up their operation at EWR, DL moved to B-1 and Eastern took over B-3 and B-2. When Eastern's mechanics went on strike in January '89 they consolidated their operations at B-2, the Port Authority took over the vacated B-3 concourse and immediately began modifying it to become EWR's new Customs and Immigration hall which was completed by late Spring '89. That's when SAS, BA and a few other International carriers launched operations at EWR. It also allowed CO to expand their International flying. When Eastern closed up shop for good in '91 the Port Authority took over the vacant B-2 concourse and began work to build a new permanent Customs and Immigration facility which opened in 1996 and occupies B-2 and B-3.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineGr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1609 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5664 times:

For a time in the mid to late 80s, Eastern advertised that all nonstops from NYC (EWR/JFK/LGA) to FLL/MIA/PBI & MCO were on widebodies and all NYC to TPA flights were 757s. This is when Eastern was competing against PanAm and PeoplExpress on the routes.

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5654 times:

As recently as the late 1990s (maybe 1996-97) AA flew a DC-10 on EWR-LAX

Quoting United Airline (Reply 6):
Any chance of a come back if UA merges with CO?

No idea why UA suspended HKG-NRT even

Your question makes no sense. If CO flies EWR-NRT today and they merge with UA by definition UA (or the survivor name) will fly EWR-NRT.

I think UA suspended NRT-HKG cuz they fly from SFO and ORD nonstop and ANA can carry any pax to HKG on the UA* code. It laos frees up NRT slots if UA needs them


User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 339 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5568 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 20):
I think UA suspended NRT-HKG cuz they fly from SFO and ORD nonstop and ANA can carry any pax to HKG on the UA* code. It laos frees up NRT slots if UA needs them

UA's JFK-NRT flight continued for quite while after its EWR-NRT service was discontinued. So at least for the initial period after the EWR-NRT discontinuance all that one had to do was to slog over to JFK to get onto UA's JFK-NRT service.


User currently offlineIntermodal64 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5568 times:

Didn't UTA fly DC-10's from EWR to second-tier cities in France?

User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6931 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5460 times:

My bad. I thought UA operated EWR-HNL at some point. It was just NRT.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 20):
As recently as the late 1990s (maybe 1996-97) AA flew a DC-10 on EWR-LAX

AA also flew EWR-LAX with the DC-10 in Fall 1999. I believe DFW was also a big DC-10 destination for a while back in the early 1990s.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3669 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5438 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
It's tricky but here goes:

Thanks - now that you've explained it, I remember the two gate stub concourse. I'm sure that in my original post I was remembering that little area of terminal C that was open prior to 1988 - like I said, I did make at least one flight on a PE 747. Probably the PE sign wasn't as big as I'm remembering and only covered like a corner of the terminal, but I was young so it probably looked huge to me.

That terminal was a disgrace at the time, I can't believe anybody actually flew out of there like that. I know PE was an LCC, but sheesh.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
25 STT757 : As was San Juan prior to the build up of the A300 fleet, I can remember DC-10s operating EWR-SJU well into the late '90s. Summer '88 my family and I
26 Doona : I think the DC-8s had moved on to other work by then. Cheers Mats Cheers Mats
27 JMBWEEBOY : I also recall flying AA's 767 515pm timed flight in the mid-80's from Newark to their then growing hub at Raleigh-Durham. JMBWEEBOY
28 DocLightning : You have to remember that during the 80's deregulation was much more recent history. Airlines still had large widebody fleets around because they had
29 Post contains links and images STT757 : Some visuals for the discussion: United American: Delta: TWA: View Large View MediumPhoto © Robert M. Campbell Eastern: Continental: World Airway
30 TDubJFK : Yes, I remember DC-10s of UTA from EWR to places like Nantes, Strasbourg and Lyon. They were not daily, but they did exist for a while.
31 STT757 : UTA flew from EWR nonstop to: Marseilles, Toulouse, Lyon, Nantes, Bordeaux.
32 WesternA318 : For a brief while, TWA had a JFK-EWR-West Coast flight as well as West Coast-EWR-JFK-Europe flight with L-1011s back in the early 90s, I remember doi
33 Viscount724 : I can't recall TW ever operating a scheduled USA-Europe flight that included the EWR-JFK or JFK-EWR sector. Do you actually have a timetable or other
34 WesternA318 : I think it was just an equipment repositioning, but they sold seats on it, I cant remember if the loads were really any good, I was only 10 or so, bu
35 Timz : In summer 1986 TWA had a JFK-EWR-STL-??? L10, but I don't think there was an eastward counterpart.
36 Stratoduck : There was a time when TWA also flew a C-880 on continuing service from SFO-OAK.
37 Breaker1011 : In the days of regulation (and even in deregulation) in the US, such reposition flights were actually common. While I don't have any OAG's to backup,
38 Tommy767 : I also have an AA timetable from 1991 that had 2-3 EWR-RDU flights on 757s. AA was just breaking them in back then.
39 WesternA318 : OK, I found a bunch of stuff from that trip in one of my storage boxes, and I had the routing wrong. We had flown ATH-JFK, but were delayed quite a bi
40 FlyMD : I remember flying this flight in 1987 when I was in fifth grade (going to NYC to visit family over Spring Break). The flight was a one stop (HNL-ORD-
41 Phatfarmlines : Are you talking about the old gates 120 & 121? If so, I remember this concourse as sloping downwards to the jetways.
42 Aviateur : How about the early 1990s? I remember: United 747SP Turkish A310
43 TDubJFK : Wow, I didnt realize it was to all those places ! All with DC10s?
44 STT757 : Yup, but they weren't daily.
45 AirlineBrat : Aah the EWR memories. Mom lived in New Jersey and my Dad and Stepmother worked for UA based in SFO. I was a monthly commuter between EWR-SFO-EWR from
46 STT757 : That's a good list, here's the Wide bodies I've flown from EWR during the '80s: CO A300 (SFO, MCO) Eastern L1011 (MCO) Eastern A300 (ATL, MCO) Pan Am
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