Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
More Controllers Urged For LAX  
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2308 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3018 times:

I wonder. Is this really needed? Can controllers be transferred in from underutilized locations? Or is this just the fallout from all the controllers retiring all at once?


Senator warns Obama's Transportation nominee that staffing problems pose an 'alarming risk' at airport and Southern California radar control facility.
By Dan Weikel
4:44 PM PST, December 29, 2008
Reiterating her call for more air traffic controllers, Sen. Dianne Feinstein
(D-Calif.) on Monday warned President-elect Barack Obama's nominee for Transportation secretary that chronic staff shortages at Los Angeles International Airport and the main radar facility that guides aircraft between airports pose an "alarming risk" to aviation safety in Southern California.


In a two-page letter to Rep. Ray LaHood (R-Ill.), Feinstein recommended that the Federal Aviation Administration take immediate steps to hire more controllers at LAX and the Southern California Terminal Radar Approach Control in San Diego.



http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...safety30-2008dec30,0,5254284.story

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMeanGreen From United States of America, joined May 2006, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

It says they want to hire more controllers for LAX and for the approach facility. So that means it will be one of three groups: the former military controllers, the CTI students, and the "off the street" hires. The CTI and off the streets can be lumped together since neither groups has actually ever talked to an airplane (save one school in PA). What I am getting at is that the FAA wants to put people with no experience into some really hard facilities and hope they succeed which isn't happening. Those that do succeed might leave because they are on the B scale pay and can't afford to live. A great deal of the off the street hires have college degrees and in turn loans, and the CTI's most definitely have the above. The FAA and NATCA need to get real on the pay issue and how to staff facilities.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24312 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

This is like a 10-year story.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

Though I cannot speak for LAX ATCT or SoCal TRACON (SCT), I do have intimate knowledge on ORD ATCT. Simply put, we need bodies. We are working mandatory six day work weeks. I am not complaining, I really enjoy O'Hare, but, we need help. The facility just received a batch of new hires. Three are ex-military (VRA), one is Off the Street and four are CTI's. The training program is difficult for people that transfer from facilities like SFO and MEM, for the new hires out of Purdue/ERAU/UND or Off the Street or VRA it will be a long, ardous journey filled with angst and anxiety. To quote many trainess (myself included) and developementals "Training sucks." It's two years of being overwhelmed by volume and complexity. Two years of being critiqued and criticized. Two years of sleepless nights or waking with a sore jaw because your teeth are clenched during the night. Two years of an icy pit in your stomach when you know you'll be getting a skills check, from your supervisor, on Outbound Ground, during a busy departure rush at eight o'clock at night. It's two years of thinking "Am I good enough to be at ORD?" Hopefully, they will all be successful.

[Edited 2008-12-30 15:34:03]


"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineMeanGreen From United States of America, joined May 2006, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

P3Orion, I feel all of what you just said and I am a dev at only a level 6 facility!

User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5997 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

Any talk of the age limit being raised?

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2633 times:



Quoting AS739X (Reply 5):
Any talk of the age limit being raised?

Not that I'm aware of. There is a program to hire retired military controllers. Also, the FAA was giving retention bonuses to controllers elegible to retire at a few select facilities.



"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2195 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2584 times:



Quoting TVNWZ (Thread starter):
I wonder. Is this really needed? Can controllers be transferred in from underutilized locations? Or is this just the fallout from all the controllers retiring all at once?

It's needed across the system. The FAA should have started hiring 5 to 6 years ago. You don't hire a "Controller". You hire a trainee and hope they make it. Takes 1 to 4 years, depending on the type facility.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineAzncsa4qf744er From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

How would one apply for a position at LAX???

User currently offlineDreamflight767 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2490 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The FAA is a disaster of any and all kinds put into one big package. For the last who knows how many years, nothing has been done to stop or improve it. At this point, no one really cares anymore, whether it be future hires, new hires, current controllers, retired controllers, management, and in some cases...the union.

User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2470 times:



Quoting Dreamflight767 (Reply 9):
At this point, no one really cares anymore, whether it be future hires, new hires, current controllers, retired controllers, management, and in some cases...the union.

Pardon me. I have a tremendous amount of pride in what I do and where I control at. I am a professional and do my best to give a high level of service to the users. I know for a fact my peers feel and operate the same way.



"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineMmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2427 times:



Quoting Dreamflight767 (Reply 9):

I once heard a saying somewhere; "Better to remain silent and appear a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

If you only knew what happens behind the scenes of maintaining a facility apart of the NAS.

Obviously you don't, or you would not have made a comment like that.

Myself, colleagues and fellow members of NATCA and PASS, take our roles and responsibilities very seriously. Remember the FAA isn't just a big building in OKC or a division of DoT; its made up of the individuals on the front line. Who put forth an honest day's work to ensure the safety of the flying public.



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21415 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

The situation has been "alarming" for years...

Do a lexis/nexis search and you'll hear this same refrain over and over again.

So either it's true, and we are just lucky so far, or it's union propaganda meant to increase head count and decrease productivity, as the current way things are run have worked. Or it' somewhere in the middle?

Considering it's a moderate/liberal Democrat Senator asking a more liberal Democrat President to hire more union workers, the objectivity is not there.

I'd rather we spend the money upgrading the system to work better with the current employee base, rather than increase spending on employees who will just work with the current antiquated system.

The former is progressive, the latter is regressive.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2195 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2314 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
I'd rather we spend the money upgrading the system to work better with the current employee base, rather than increase spending on employees who will just work with the current antiquated system.

The money is still going to be spent on employees in the form of Overtime. It's being done today. A 6 day week with a couple of 10 hour days has become the norm in many facilities.

I'd rather see a balance, with improvements across the board.
The new Traffic Management Facility was needed a whole lot less than a bunch of ADS-B sites or new ARTCC buildings, but it was built. Inside the Beltway thinking has us where we are.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineAndyinPIT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2237 times:



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 10):
Pardon me. I have a tremendous amount of pride in what I do and where I control at. I am a professional and do my best to give a high level of service to the users. I know for a fact my peers feel and operate the same way

I can vouch for that.

Also, the FAA needs to speed up the rate at which they hire. I went through the CTI program but didn't graduate (didn't have the funds to get a private pilots license) but I did come out of the program with a CTO issued by the FAA. That being said I have 3 applications (2 off the street, 1 for CTO applicants). I called 2 days ago and spoke with the woman and she said the review board will be looking at public announcements 3-4 in mid January. My first public announcment I applied for was in JULY, and that was announcment 5. I have friends who graduated CTI 2 semesters ago that haven't heard anything. And they wonder why they cant get people in the facilities fast enough...


User currently offlineMah584jr From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2199 times:

Having read up a bit on the Southern California airspace, I do not believe that LAX is in any imminent danger of understaffing. SoCal Tracon is in much worse shape. I'm heading to LA center and it's staffed rather well apparently.

User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2195 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2118 times:



Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 15):
Having read up a bit on the Southern California airspace,

And that led you to the following how?

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 15):
I do not believe that LAX is in any imminent danger of understaffing.



Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 15):
SoCal Tracon is in much worse shape.

You had a look at the staffing numbers?

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 15):
I'm heading to LA center and it's staffed rather well apparently.

Really? What's the authorized numbers for CPCs? How many are onboard? What's their overtime usage?
BTW. why are they using Overtime?



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineMah584jr From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Well it seems, according to the article that LAX is currently within appropriate staffing levels. However, SoCal Tracon appears to be understaffed by a slight margin. According to this website: http://data.gannettnewsservice.com/airtraffic/stateair.php staffing at LA center seems adequate enough.

Now I realize these are figures for fiscal year 2007, however they are the most accurate source available at this time. It's interesting, the article claims that LAX is appropriately staffed yet staffing levels according to that website are inadequate. I have met a couple of trainees for LAX. Perhaps this could explain why LAX is now appropriately staffed.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Really? What's the authorized numbers for CPCs? How many are onboard? What's their overtime usage?
BTW. why are they using Overtime?

I have not started my training as of yet, however, I did speak to the manager at LA center during one of my interviews and he mentioned that the staffing at the center was appropriate. He did allude to the fact that many of the current controllers are due to retire in the near future, hence the reason for me being selected to go there.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1965 times:



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 13):
I'd rather see a balance, with improvements across the board.
The new Traffic Management Facility was needed a whole lot less than a bunch of ADS-B sites or new ARTCC buildings, but it was built. Inside the Beltway thinking has us where we are.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Mmedford (Reply 11):
Myself, colleagues and fellow members of NATCA and PASS, take our roles and responsibilities very seriously. Remember the FAA isn't just a big building in OKC or a division of DoT; its made up of the individuals on the front line. Who put forth an honest day's work to ensure the safety of the flying public.

Very well said, and now days most of the honest days work is a 10 hour day, 6 days a week!!

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 17):
I have met a couple of trainees for LAX. Perhaps this could explain why LAX is now appropriately staffed.

Good observation, it is exactly why staffing numbers appear as they do, someone is counting warm bodies in the building. Developmentals at facilities which are CPC understaffed are not getting as many hours of training as they should, quite often they're being used for coverage on positions they have been certified.

Quoting Dreamflight767 (Reply 9):
At this point, no one really cares anymore, whether it be future hires, new hires, current controllers, retired controllers, management, and in some cases...the union.

IMHO others in the thread have addressed this type of comment.

My quesiton Dreamflight767 is this, being in commercial aviation (taking that from the profile) when was the last time you actually visited an FAA Air Traffic facility and sat down with the controllers face to face?



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21415 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1918 times:



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 13):
I'd rather see a balance, with improvements across the board.

Me too.

But I have also never met a union worker who didn't believe he/she was underpaid and overworked.

Which makes it hard to discern who is really being overworked, and who isn't.

Considering that things aren't falling apart on a daily basis here in the LA area when compared to other regions, one has to wonder if we are just routinely lucky, or the staffing isn't as critical as claimed...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDinker225 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1057 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1894 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
But I have also never met a union worker who didn't believe he/she was underpaid and overworked.

Which makes it hard to discern who is really being overworked, and who isn't.

Considering that things aren't falling apart on a daily basis here in the LA area when compared to other regions, one has to wonder if we are just routinely lucky, or the staffing isn't as critical as claimed...

Many in the FAA are not overworked, however many facilities are doing mandatory 6 day work weeks. Many of those 6 days are 10 hour workdays. 10 hours is the max a controller can work in one day. How can they not be overworked when they are working mandatory 6 day weeks with many of those days 10 hours a day? A controllers work day usually consists of 8 hours.

I don't know about anybody else but for somebody who has to make hundreds of split second decisions all day long that affects me, I want that person well rested and NOT over worked. When your tired you make more mistakes. In this business those mistakes are deadly.

As many others above have said, a warm body in the building is NOT a controller.

Dinker



Two rules in aviation, don't hit anything and don't run out of gas, cause if you run out of gas yer gonna hit something.
User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2223 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1751 times:



Quoting MeanGreen (Reply 1):
succeed which isn't happening

I guess I'm the rarity in this case....

Quoting Dreamflight767 (Reply 9):
no one really cares anymore

I take pride in doing a good job at slinging metal. When a pilot keys up and goes "Can we take you to so you can help them move planes" that really gives ya a feeling of pride. (or when I hear IAHFLYR say "Dude, give me more space, youre tubing me"....j/k)

The FAA, NATCA. and the DOT are going through tough times at the moment. The job is still the Safe, Orderly, and Expeditious flow of Air Traffic. Whether you get paid what I do or get paid what my co-workers on the green book scale (last contract) is irrelevent. The FAA gives me a darn good paycheck to go watch airplanes all day...how cool is that?! I am not saying that every now and again I get disturbed at new policies or HR issues, but all in all, its a good job and has the potential for a GREAT paycheck!

Keep the blue side up and green between.

ATCT
ATC, Level 12 FPL



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1676 times:



Quoting ATCT (Reply 21):
(or when I hear IAHFLYR say "Dude, give me more space, youre tubing me"....j/k)

You'll never hear that cuzz your just a Pup!!!! What you will hear me asking is "who is the weak stick on Local West"........give me more, the center we haven't tubed yet.  Smile



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
More Trouble For LAX posted Tue Aug 2 2005 17:19:25 by SRT75
More Real Estate For DL To Help W/MTC? posted Thu Nov 6 2008 22:13:52 by FlyASAGuy2005
United Applies For LAX-PVR posted Mon Aug 11 2008 18:01:33 by LAXintl
Qantas 747300 Wieight Limits For LAX-ALK posted Wed Jun 11 2008 01:12:29 by 747400sp
19 More Leased A32Xs For Aeroflot posted Wed Jun 4 2008 15:12:31 by FCKC
One More Tu-204CE For Cubana This Year. posted Mon Apr 21 2008 06:03:11 by SIBILLE
More Runways Possible For JFK? posted Sun Mar 9 2008 15:04:12 by Nrcnyc
One More A330-202 For TAP! posted Wed Feb 20 2008 07:00:42 by CV990
Virgin America Applies For LAX-SJD posted Tue Feb 19 2008 16:49:03 by LAXintl
United Applies For LAX-SJD posted Thu Jan 24 2008 18:40:38 by LAXintl