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SQs And Emirates Early 773 - Going Soon?  
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

Singapore Airlines and Emirates both are known to operate their aicraft for just 10 to 12 years before selling them. The early 777s of both airlines have passed that age and the sale of these first 772s has been publicly announced. Now the first 773s (non-ERs) have turned 10 as well. Time to sell them, at least order replacements and set a date. I guess that some of the many 773ERs still outstanding are meant for it.
Any indications of it happening soon?

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNicholaschee From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

SQ has 12 773s. 11 are slated to be refurbished with the current F seats (same as 77W) and new J seats (same as 333) and new Y seats (same as 388/77W/333) from 2009 onwards (that's less than 24hrs away).

[Edited 2008-12-30 11:36:16]

User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9680 times:

As these could be easily transferred to new 77Ws I dont see it as an indication of them staying much longer in the fleet.

User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9670 times:

Not from EK. They just renewed the leases on all their 773's, pushed out until 2012, IIRC. They have not even indicated a retirement on their original 772's, yet.

SQ, while about to receive their first A333's meant to replace the regional 772's, have not officially announced a sale of those frames, unless you've heard something I have not. Their 773's are not going anywhere for the time being.


Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineNicholaschee From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9659 times:

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 3):

SQ, while about to receive their first A333's meant to replace the regional 772's, have not officially announced a sale of those frames, unless you've heard something I have not. Their 773's are not going anywhere for the time being.

Considering that the news of the refurbishment was announced in the recent issue of "Outlook" aka SQ staff newsletter. The 773s will be around for another couple of years.

[Edited 2008-12-30 11:39:50]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31119 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9627 times:
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Wiki says EK ordered the A350-1000 to replace their 777-300s, which makes sense and would explain the later replacement date since they won't see them before 2015 at the earliest.

User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9429 times:



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 4):
The 773s will be around for another couple of years.

There goes SQs proudness of having the youngest fleet!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Wiki says EK ordered the A350-1000 to replace their 777-300s, which makes sense and would explain the later replacement date since they won't see them before 2015 at the earliest.

I doubt that Emirates will fly a 777 18 years old! That is completely against what they otherwise do.


User currently offlineAlangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9326 times:

Why would SQ want to replace medium range 773s with long range 77Ws just for the sake of doing it? A long range plane will pay higher landing fees, based on weight, and they do not need to operate medium range routes with a long range seating configuration, unless the only reason for operating the flight is to connect onto another long haul flight.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31119 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9273 times:
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Quoting NA (Reply 6):
I doubt that Emirates will fly a 777 18 years old! That is completely against what they otherwise do.

If it meets the mission, why not? I doubt they're missing the extra 3t of payload a 77W could carry and the 10t lower OEW would help with landing fees since it results in lower landing weights even with identical payloads.

I mean I am sure Boeing would love to sell them more 77Ws to replace them, but seems like a needless expense if the 773's are still in good working order.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9049 times:

Five of SQ's 777-300s, 9V-SYA through 9V-SYE, are among the 18 777s that will be replaced by the 19 A330-300s on order.

User currently offlineAg92 From India, joined Jul 2006, 1317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8943 times:



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 1):
SQ has 12 773s. 11 are slated to be refurbished with the current F seats (same as 77W) and new J seats (same as 333) and new Y seats (same as 388/77W/333) from 2009 onwards (that's less than 24hrs away).

So even the Boeing 777-300 will have the new seats in them for F/J classes? That sucks but maybe not for the business traveller as this decision would be MUCH appreciated


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8142 times:



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
Five of SQ's 777-300s, 9V-SYA through 9V-SYE, are among the 18 777s that will be replaced by the 19 A330-300s on order.

Here we go! Interesting that the "older" A330 is replacing the oh-so-great 773!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
If it meets the mission, why not? I doubt they're missing the extra 3t of payload a 77W could carry and the 10t lower OEW would help with landing fees since it results in lower landing weights even with identical payloads.

Emirates wont keep them simply because they are getting old by the airlines own standards. A 15 year old 773? What a poor show for Emirates that would be.


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8032 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Here we go! Interesting that the "older" A330 is replacing the oh-so-great 773!

The base 773 wasn't really that great, it was only sold to very few carriers (NH, JL, KE, CX, TG, SQ, and EK) and that in only a few numbers (60 total, IIRC). It is/was mainly used as an intra-Asian city shuttle. The 777-300ER is the one that really sold in large numbers to a lot of carriers.

SQ will kick theirs sooner or later, the question is who will actually take them. EK would certainly like to kick theirs, but they are suffering from the A380 delay and can't afford to let them go now.


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2971 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7932 times:

I'm just wondering who would want to buy a used baseline 777-300 right now? Even though EK and SQ would like to get rid of theirs they do need to find buyers. I doubt that with the lower OEW they can be converted into successful freighters. I've flown 773's on SQ, EK, TG and CX - all from India and they certainly seem to be popular hauling large numbers of people from the subcontinent - but given the current economic scenario I doubt an Indian carrier would pick up used aircraft, even if the price was right.


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7881 times:
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What is the second-hand market like for 773 A-market planes? If the aircraft have been used on mostly regional flights and have a high number of cycles, they may be perceived as worn out... IIRC 772 A-market aircraft are not in high demand either on the second-hand market.

Perhaps European charter carriers can use them on their busiest flights, with 500 seats.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7847 times:



Quoting Cricket (Reply 13):
I doubt an Indian carrier would pick up used aircraft, even if the price was right.

Surely not when Jet Aw is even dumping the superior 77W.
The 773A is quite an oddball, even more than the 772A. I understand that it will be hard to find buyers for them. Only few wanted/needed them when new, even less supposedly will fall for used ones. Maybe some Hadj-charter carriers or Asian LCCs of the Orient Thai kind. As for almost all shorthaul aircraft, we can expect JAL and ANA to fly them until there are finished, but not the gew other who took them.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6824 posts, RR: 77
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7372 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 6):
There goes SQs proudness of having the youngest fleet!

Which they don't have anyway.

Quoting NA (Reply 6):

I doubt that Emirates will fly a 777 18 years old! That is completely against what they otherwise do.

Their focus has always been on growth in first place, not keeping a certain average fleet age. And why should they replace an aircraft which does a good job?

Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Here we go! Interesting that the "older" A330 is replacing the oh-so-great 773!

SQ probably plans to increase frequencies on certain routes with the smaller A333.

Btw, I'm just curious - who else has talked about "older A330" and "oh-so-great 773" here, except for you? Why can't the discussions remain serious?

Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Emirates wont keep them simply because they are getting old by the airlines own standards. A 15 year old 773? What a poor show for Emirates that would be.

I guess Emirates managers and customers have a different opinion here. And btw - how would operating a 15 year old 777 be so much different than operating a 14 year old A310?

Quoting NA (Reply 15):
Surely not when Jet Aw is even dumping the superior 77W.

Jet Airways needs to reduce capacity after growing too fast. It's not just the 77W fleet which will be decreased.

Quoting NA (Reply 15):
The 773A is quite an oddball, even more than the 772A. I understand that it will be hard to find buyers for them. Only few wanted/needed them when new, even less supposedly will fall for used ones. Maybe some Hadj-charter carriers or Asian LCCs of the Orient Thai kind.

The 773 does a good job on regional and medium-haul routes - it has been a perfect plane for a number of Asian carriers. We shouldn't forget it's significantly lighter than a 77W.
It's very likely that the handful of 773s available in the next years will find new homes soon. The type could be even used on transatlantic routes.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7219 times:



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 16):
Jet Airways needs to reduce capacity after growing too fast. It's not just the 77W fleet which will be decreased.

Sure. I only answered someone arguing if used 773s could probably be of interest for Indian carriers.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 16):
Btw, I'm just curious - who else has talked about "older A330" and "oh-so-great 773" here, except for you? Why can't the discussions remain serious?

Sorry, whats not serious here? SQ apparently replaces some 773As with A333s. The A333 is a model 5 years older than the 773. Indeed an interesting fact in a time where so many (beancouters in the first place of cause) regard a 773 as being the hottest cake on the market.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 16):
I guess Emirates managers and customers have a different opinion here. And btw - how would operating a 15 year old 777 be so much different than operating a 14 year old A310?

A310 freighters they are. Different issue.
I think that the upcoming sale of Emirates 772As is a hint the 773A which are only 2 or 3 years younger will follow relatively soon afterwards. Just to let you know I worked on a project for Emirates this year, were I noticed the 772A was already out of the fleetplan.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6824 posts, RR: 77
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7094 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 17):
The A333 is a model 5 years older than the 773.

The today's A333 is a bit different from the model available in the early 90s. And the 773 is more or less a stretched 772.

Quoting NA (Reply 17):
Indeed an interesting fact in a time where so many (beancouters in the first place of cause) regard a 773 as being the hottest cake on the market.

The 77W has been a hot seller, not the 773 (non-ER). However, the 773 has been a perfect high-capacity plane for medium-haul and regional routes.

SIA has used 777s for many years even on thin routes - but it once probably got a great deal by Boeing when it placed a mega 777 order. Most likely it was cheaper to standardize on the 777 rather than to introduce another (smaller) type.
And the A333 available back than was not as capable as today - the today's model can be used much more flexibly. The price of oil is another factor. And we shouldn't forget that SIA's A380s have been significantly delayed - who knows how Airbus has compensated that. SQ can also use the smaller A333 to increase frequencies on certain 773 routes.

Quoting NA (Reply 17):
A310 freighters they are. Different issue.

Wrong. Emirates' last A310 passenger model was 14 years old when it left the fleet last year.

Quoting NA (Reply 17):
I think that the upcoming sale of Emirates 772As is a hint the 773A which are only 2 or 3 years younger will follow relatively soon afterwards.

Not necessarily. The 773 could fly for many more years on high-density regional routes - the 77W is a much heavier aircraft.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31119 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6456 times:
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Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Here we go! Interesting that the "older" A330 is replacing the oh-so-great 773!

It is clear from this quote and others that you are confusing the 777-300 with the 777-300ER.

The 777-300ER has significantly more performance then the 777-300.


Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Emirates wont keep them simply because they are getting old by the airlines own standards. A 15 year old 773? What a poor show for Emirates that would be.

Like the people who buy the tickets care.  sarcastic 


Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 14):
What is the second-hand market like for 773 A-market planes?

A bit north of $100 million, on average.


Quoting Cricket (Reply 13):
I'm just wondering who would want to buy a used baseline 777-300 right now? I doubt that with the lower OEW they can be converted into successful freighters.

Well as a replacement for 747-100/-200 and DC-10-10/-20 passenger-to-freighter conversions it would likely work, but it won't be replacing any DC-10-30F, MD-10/-11s in anyone's fleet outside of regional or package freight industries, I would imagine.


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6075 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
If it meets the mission, why not? I doubt they're missing the extra 3t of payload a 77W could carry and the 10t lower OEW would help with landing fees since it results in lower landing weights even with identical payloads.

 checkmark  Agreed!!

Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Here we go! Interesting that the "older" A330 is replacing the oh-so-great 773!

As others have pointed out, you appear to be ignorant of the difference between the 777-300, and the 777-300ER. The former is a regional aircraft, that only sold 60 frames. The latter is the much more capable, much more popular version.

The same can be said of the initial A330-300, and the models Airbus is producing today. Today's model is much more capable and flexible compared to the initial version. One of the reasons why today's model is in hot demand, and the initial version keeps getting moved from one operator to the next on the used market.

Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Emirates wont keep them simply because they are getting old by the airlines own standards. A 15 year old 773? What a poor show for Emirates that would be.

Then you much be EXTREMELY worried about EK's A330-200 fleet, which has an average age roughly 6-8 months older than their 777-300 fleet, huh?


Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4791 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5721 times:



Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
The base 773 wasn't really that great, it was only sold to very few carriers (NH, JL, KE, CX, TG, SQ, and EK) and that in only a few numbers (60 total, IIRC).

What exactly is "not great" about it, compared to the alternatives at the time? Sure, it wasn't a great sales success, but it wasn't terrible either. The 773 (non-ER) has similar capabilities to the B742 and B743 that it largely replaced on Intra-Asian routes. Much better suited and huge fuel cost savings.

The 773 was always going to be a niche player until engine technology improved and the ER derivative became available, but that's not the airplane's fault. North American / EU airlines decided to either downsize their 747 Classics to 772/A333 or replace then with 744s because of this.

Examples:
AC replaced 741/742 with A333
BA replaced 741/742 with 772A/772ER/744
UA replaced 741/742 with 772A/772ER/744
etc, etc, etc

KE also flew them across the Pacific - even with the PW4098s (and their high fuel consumption). So they aren't that bad.


User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2736 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5165 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Here we go! Interesting that the "older" A330 is replacing the oh-so-great 773!

Was this thread sttarted simply to vent this opinion?

Quoting NA (Reply 11):
Emirates wont keep them simply because they are getting old by the airlines own standards. A 15 year old 773? What a poor show for Emirates that would be.

A poor show? How so? Does anyone really care about the "youngest fleet in the world" PR guff that gets spun? I doubt it.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 20):
Then you much be EXTREMELY worried about EK's A330-200 fleet, which has an average age roughly 6-8 months older than their 777-300 fleet, huh?

Hehe, nice observation.


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5138 times:



Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 21):
What exactly is "not great" about it, compared to the alternatives at the time? Sure, it wasn't a great sales success, but it wasn't terrible either.

It only sold sixty frames. Even if some flew across the pacific, that is still a very low number of planes.

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 21):
The 773 was always going to be a niche player until engine technology improved and the ER derivative became available, but that's not the airplane's fault. North American / EU airlines decided to either downsize their 747 Classics to 772/A333 or replace then with 744s because of this.

Examples:
AC replaced 741/742 with A333
BA replaced 741/742 with 772A/772ER/744
UA replaced 741/742 with 772A/772ER/744
etc, etc, etc

Which clearly shows that there were much more attractive planes than the 773.

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 21):
KE also flew them across the Pacific - even with the PW4098s (and their high fuel consumption). So they aren't that bad.

But they were mainly used to Asian cities like HKG, SIN, or PEK.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5007 times:



Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 22):
A poor show? How so? Does anyone really care about the "youngest fleet in the world" PR guff that gets spun? I doubt it.

The airline itself. Thats why they are replacing their jets early. Thats why I started this thread. There are excellent Airlines who dont care, like LH, which fly their 744s to the end of their service life. But dont deny SQ and Emirates are different.

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 22):
Was this thread sttarted simply to vent this opinion?

As I said above: I have worked for Emirates in 2008, and the 772A was already missing from the fleetplan we had. So why not should the only slightly younger longer tube follow suit? I dont see why you dispute the thread. Get over it: the 773 is just another airpplane which will end like anyone else: on the scrapyard.

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 22):
Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 20):
Then you much be EXTREMELY worried about EK's A330-200 fleet, which has an average age roughly 6-8 months older than their 777-300 fleet, huh?

Hehe, nice observation.

And? Tthats not this thread is about. I dont know about the A332s, but Emirates will also replace their A340s along with the early 772s and 773s in near future.


25 Hamlet69 : I thought it was, based on: Isn't the purpose of this thread to ask if EK and SQ are going to retire older aircraft? Why limit it just to the 777-300
26 NA : Because 744s (SQ) and some 772s (both airlines) are already scheduled to be phased out, and the rest of the fleets are younger. I didnt mention the 7
27 Ag92 : Isn't that amount slightly less then average, don't like new planes go for over 200million dollars per plane? I think it does certainly help like e.g
28 Stitch : That is the average value for a 777-300 in 2007. Individual frames will trend higher or lower based on age, hours/cycles and condition. A brand-new 7
29 Nimish : Not doubting you - but can you point me to an official source for this? I tried googling "Singapore Air 773 upgrade/refurbishment" and it did not bri
30 PlaneHunter : But the 773 has been working well in the niche it was intended for. Both airlines might care about having a "young fleet" more than others - but I do
31 Nicholaschee : Refer to reply #4.
32 Aerokiwi : Is there any quantifiable proof of this though? I know airline marketing people would just love to say it is important (as would OEMs), but let's fac
33 B747-4U3 : What wasn't great about it? I'm sure if you asked NH, CX or EK, they would tell you that it is a fantastic aircraft. This undermines your previous co
34 AirbusA6 : If the 773A models can be used transatlantic, then are there economic benefits in replacing early 744s between Europe and the East Coast with them, if
35 CX747 : There are 60+ 777-300s in the world wide fleet. As they begin to leave passenger service with SQ, could we see a freighter program? Would the 773 make
36 Jfk777 : The early 773 will prove to be a good east coast to Europe airplane. Cathay, Singapore, Thai and Emirates have many such planes looking for new homes
37 Hirnie : I know United is not in the position to order new aircraft. But could the B773 be a fit for US east coast to Europe? Perhaps they could then shift so
38 ZK-NBT : As above none of the above are getting rid of these aircraft soon except for SQ who will lose the 5 oldest in the next 2 years. EKs 773A market aircr
39 Nicholaschee : As I have said in earlier posts, SQ is only getting rid of 1 773. 11 773s will be refurbished and we will see them in operation for a few more years.
40 Zvezda : In what time scale? This year, SQ will be retiring just one 777-300. Over the next three years, SQ will be retiring five 777-300s (9V-SYA through 9V-
41 NA : Anyway, 1 or 5 773s going soon, its a beginning. SQ sold and sells its 744s also 1 by 1 or in small groups over several years. Even if they refurbish
42 CX747 : While purchasing the 773 would add another fleet type, how would this type fit into VS's current route structure? They operate A343/744/A346s on relat
43 Stitch : I can't see how it would, since it would likely carry less folks then their 744s and A346s. Might even help the Upper Class revenues a bit by being a
44 Zvezda : You're suggesting that the passenger capacity of a 777-300 would be less than that of an A340-600? The A340-600 has a cabin floor area of 314.2 sq me
45 Nicholaschee : Why would they want to transfer the interiors to the 77W? The 77W has a completely different J seat. The 773s in SQ's fleet serve a mix of short/medi
46 Sankaps : Does this mean the business class will be 2-2-2 like on the A333s?
47 ZK-NBT : Ok, fair enough. So will they or do they plan to use the 773s on long haul routes once they are refitted as I'd imagine the J in the 333s will be alo
48 Zvezda : I'm expecting 2-3-2 with seats similar to those in SQ's new A330-300s. SQ can operate their 777-300s on flights of up to about 8 hours.
49 ZK-NBT : IST is alot futher than 8 hours isn't it? I'm aware its via DXB. MEL will likely get A380 service from SQ but not on all flights obviously its just t
50 Zvezda : The 777-300ER has greater range than the 777-300 being discussed in this thread.
51 Lutfi : The 773A vs A333 comparison is interesting. They have almost identical seat/mile costs (suprising as the 773 can take 20-25% more pax) This is because
52 Nicholaschee : IST is via DXB.
53 ZK-NBT : Yes I'm well aware of that however just pointing out that CHC particularly has seen them a few times lately and AKL has had a couple aswell. As I typ
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