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Will There Ever Be A True 752 Replacement?  
User currently offlineAvi8tir From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 410 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8038 times:
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The 752 is my favorite aircraft. We all know that is stands alone as far as capability is concerned. Is there anything on the horizon that will be a TRUE 752 replacement? I think we can all agree that no matter how much the 737 grows, it will NEVER be a 757.


*Long live the Widget*
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 905 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8012 times:

The 797 May be a a cross between a 737 and 757 but I do not see boeing making an a/c the exact size of the 757 which is a shame b/c i love the 757


"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3100 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7933 times:

I don't think it should ever have been discontinued. Few aircraft of that size have that much thrust for a quicker takeoff on shorter runways. Few aircraft like the 757 can provide that much seating for domestic and some overseas flights (which some airlines are starting to use them for) all in one aircraft.

The 737-900 may be similar however I don't feel it measures up to the 757 with the characteristics I have mentioned above.


User currently offlineDelta763 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7892 times:

The 739 has similar size but nowhere near the takeoff performance, which affects range as well.

Strange to think that the only aircraft still in production with similar size and performance comes from Russia!  duck 


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7863 times:



Quoting Avi8tir (Thread starter):
The 752 is my favorite aircraft.

The DC-9 and 727 are still my favorite birds, but the 757 is my favorite "newer" aircraft! She sure is a beauty. My first ride on a 757 was on a Republic 757. After flying on DC-9's and 727's in my youth, the 757 first ride was like flying on a rocket. The takeoff was just amazing, and the whole experience was one I will never forget.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 2):
I don't think it should ever have been discontinued.



Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 2):
The 737-900 may be similar however I don't feel it measures up to the 757 with the characteristics I have mentioned above.

I totally agree. I still can't believe production stopped on the 757!!!  Sad

There is also no comparison in the beauty of the 757 when compared to the 900. I mean, the 737-900 is gorgeous, but it is not a 757! I wish Boeing would bring it back!!!!

Quoting N104UA (Reply 1):
The 797 May be a a cross between a 737 and 757 but I do not see boeing making an a/c the exact size of the 757 which is a shame b/c i love the 757

That would be awesome. They could bring back the drawings of the 757, add more composites, and make her even more economical.

Did Boeing stop selling the 757, or did the orders just dry up? I would think it would be a hot commodity these days. I am sure it has been discussed in length at higher levels at Boeing. I would wonder if the 787 is going to fill the voids of the 757?



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7833 times:



Quoting Avi8tir (Thread starter):
The 797 May be a a cross between a 737 and 757 but I do not see boeing making an a/c the exact size of the 757 which is a shame b/c i love the 757

I would not be a bit surprised to see the 797 attempt to cater most all narrowbody needs in different versions. 130 seats, 160, and 190 or even more - with efficiency enough for very short haul and still be able to do as much long-haul (or more) as the 757 can. To me - the 797 will be more of a 757 replacement than 737. I think there will be yet another design for 737 replacement, an E190+ sort of ship, sized between larger RJ's and the 737-700, perhaps versioned to replace both types.

I just don't think Boeing's going to put out a new narrowbody that can't meet demands of both higher capacity 737 and 757 replacement. Perhaps that's why we're still seeing version XXX of the 737 and the 797 is staying extremely quiet? I'm sure others know a whole lot more than me on the project.



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7787 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 5):
Did Boeing stop selling the 757, or did the orders just dry up? I would think it would be a hot commodity these days. I am sure it has been discussed in length at higher levels at Boeing. I would wonder if the 787 is going to fill the voids of the 757?

I always thought the 757's demise was the result of Boeing vs. Airbus "race to be the biggest." The market demands in the late 90's and early 00's were for high capacity long-haul and lower capacity short/medium haul aircraft. Boeing drove the 777 HARD against the A340/A330, and the 737 lineup even harder against the A320 series. Airbus started showing signs of winning on both ends of the spectrum. Both the 757 and 767, squarely in the middle of the product line of 737s and 777's, became the Jan Bradys of the family - airlines were ordering more on the two ends. Boeing needed more production capacity for 777/737/787 because delivery dates were of the essence in the race against Airbus, and the two types just got squeezed to a trickle.



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7763 times:



Quoting Avi8tir (Thread starter):
Is there anything on the horizon that will be a TRUE 752 replacement?

Not right now, no. At the time the 757 was discontinued, there was very limited demand for a 752-type aircraft so there was no reason for any OEM to work on one. Changes since then may have swung the pendulum a little back towards increasing demand, but both A & B are too busy with other projects to do it right now and neither Bombardier nor Embraer have indicated a willingness to move into that market yet. It would be an interesting penetration point for the Chinese on their next aircraft, if they choose to do so.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 2):
I don't think it should ever have been discontinued.

At the time it was discontinued, there weren't enough orders to keep the line going at an economical rate. Boeing could have kept the line going building white tails as a gamble that demand would pick up again, and that might have paid off, but they knew that they could use that space for 737 production and they've sold a ton of 737's since the 757 was discontinued...I have a very tough time believing that the business case would have worked out better keeping the 757.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4):
Did Boeing stop selling the 757, or did the orders just dry up?

Orders dried up. From 2000 onwards only 46 were ordered, and that includes none in 2002 and only 7 in 2003. Nothing was ordered from 2003 onwards.

Tom.


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7751 times:

I personally hate the 757, it's an uncomfortable aircraft that is used on flights that are far too long for a narrow body. But that's my opinion.

The fact is many airlines have found great uses for the 757 and I can't imagine there not being a replacement. But honestly it's pretty much a 737 with tall legs. If Boeing wanted they could try and give the 737 longer legs so better/larger engines could be installed to give some more range/power.

I think Boeing and Airbus are looking very closely at how airlines are using the 757 and are working on a successor to the aircraft. But honestly I think Boeing will just shrink down the 787 to create a 757/762 replacement. Maybe a 2-1-2 layout? something like that.


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7642 times:

Just imagine it Boeing restarted the 757 program with a geared turbofan engine. Would you get something like 10-15% or more efficiency? 10-15% or more range?

That would allow NYC-WAW/PRG/NAP/HEL and anything shorter while improving reliability and profitability for the current services up to TXL-EWR range. Or, maybe a slight stretch with range of the current 752?

Maybe Boeing would make such an aircraft with a composite frame and better wing - further improving range, profit and payload. That is what the 797 should be in my mind while the 739ER type aircraft covers the trancon and shorter distances. Could the 739 be retooled with composites?


User currently offlineOlympic472 From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7609 times:

When Boeing introduced the 757, it was to be the 727's replacement. It not only replaced but exceeded the 727 in many ways. The 757 was larger, heavier and more powerful, but it found the sweet spot in airline's fleet. It's performance in hot and high, and personally at John Wayne /SNA always left a smile on my face. I like both the 727 and 757, and pilots still refer to the 727 as the "sports car" of airliners.

The 757's replacement may be the 787-8. It hasn't flown so nobody will know till then. Furthermore, is it too large? Until then the 737-900ER is only an interim solution, and for me not a 757 replacement.



Civil Aviation has a "Need for Speed"!
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7565 times:

Will Boeing ever bring back the B 757?

User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7526 times:



Quoting United Airline (Reply 11):
Will Boeing ever bring back the B 757?

No.

An aircraft with similar range/capacity to a 757...maybe. But the 757 production line is dead and it's not coming back.

Tom.


User currently offlineGeotrash From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7489 times:

Enjoyed reading this thread and kudos to the posters here for the interesting commentary. The 757 is also my favorite aircraft and I'm fortunate that I get to fly them nearly every week from DEN - BOS. Along the lines of some of the comments made already, here is what I see:

1/ Folks here are spot on that the orders for the 757 dried up, and that the sales motion in the market was for 737/A320 sized aircraft, and 777/A340. Neither A nor B could afford to cede the market in either of these categories to the other. The 757 was in a sense a casualty of war.

2/ Airlines with the route structures which are well suited to the 757 had already bought them, and when Eastern and the TWA went T/U over the years, the other operators with suitable routes were able to bolster their fleets, contributing to the drop in orders.

3/ Now that these aircraft are aging, the demand for more point to point service across the Atlantic has increased, fuel prices drove the 727s out of service leaving the 757 is the workhorse of many airlines' fleets, there appears to once again be market demand shaping up for a direct replacement.

I'd love to see an all-new single-aisle 757 replacement with longer range and maybe a wider cabin for more shoulder room in steerage. I guess I'm one of the few who don't mind a single aisle aircraft on longer intercontinental flights. It means fewer people in the customs line on arrival!

Dave


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7449 times:

The A321 has replaced the 757 with many airlines in Europe where the capacity was needed but not the extra power and range of the 757.
As the 737-900ER is also able to do many of the routes of the 757 was designed to do it only leaves a short niche were the performance of the 757 is needed.
The real competitioner of the 757 the A310 already has biten the dust as a passenger aircraft, it is only in service with militaries and cargo airlines and very few passenger airlines that are in the process of phasing them out in favor of more efficient aircraft.

I hardly see a real 757 replacement but I see the 737/A320 successor getting a bit bigger so that the gap between the largest narrowbody and the smallest widebody is not as big as it is now with A321/A332 and 739/788.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7446 times:

The true question remains - will there ever be enough demand to warrant a new plane in this category?

The B757 has its strengths, but somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the missions flown by B757s can be flown by B737s or A32Ss, the exceptions being trans-Atlantics and high-volume Hawaii traffic.

Do those two markets warrant a new development? Personally, I doubt it... unless it ends up being a part of a family of aircraft that fills a far wider role, i.e. B788, or whatever the B797 may turn out to be...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineElBandGeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7420 times:

With the recent trend of planes like the Ejets, CSeries, etc. filling up the smaller end of the mainline market, I think it would make sense for Boeing to go for an overall larger plane that could start somewhere in size between the 73G and 738 and be able to stretch at least to 752 size if not beyond. With the advancements in engines, it probably wouldn't be much of an issue to get the performance of the 757.

User currently offlineFlyboy2001 From Canada, joined May 2005, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7353 times:



Quoting Leskova (Reply 15):
Do those two markets warrant a new development? Personally, I doubt it... unless it ends up being a part of a family of aircraft that fills a far wider role

I agree, I think that manufacturers are aware of the unique abilities of the 757 but a whole new type seems unnecessary. I'd bet that with improved wing efficiency and modern engines, they'll be able to build those capabilities into the next generation narrowbody aircraft.



And you... Revolution, or just resistance?
User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7243 times:
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Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4):
That would be awesome. They could bring back the drawings of the 757, add more composites, and make her even more economical.



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 9):
Just imagine it Boeing restarted the 757 program with a geared turbofan engine. Would you get something like 10-15% or more efficiency? 10-15% or more range?

That would be a dream come true!  bigthumbsup 

I'm hoping the 797 will be just that.

Just my  twocents 

Happy New Year!

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineAtlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6628 times:



Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 2):
I don't think it should ever have been discontinued. Few aircraft of that size have that much thrust for a quicker takeoff on shorter runways. Few aircraft like the 757 can provide that much seating for domestic and some overseas flights (which some airlines are starting to use them for) all in one aircraft.


 checkmark  The 757 would have many more orders if it was still in production.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4):
That would be awesome. They could bring back the drawings of the 757, add more composites, and make her even more economical.

 checkmark  That would be awesome!  Big grin

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4):
I would think it would be a hot commodity these days.

 checkmark  It would be very much a hot commodity.

The 757 is a great plane it's the sports car of the skies and is unrivaled in it's class of performance and comfort! Big grin  yes 

Atlanta



Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6437 times:



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 9):
Just imagine it Boeing restarted the 757 program with a geared turbofan engine. Would you get something like 10-15% or more efficiency? 10-15% or more range?



Quoting Columba (Reply 14):
The A321 has replaced the 757 with many airlines in Europe where the capacity was needed but not the extra power and range of the 757.

Well, Airbus is the only carrier currently doing on-wing testing of a GTF.

Put it on an A321, fit the centre fuel tank, the current winglets being tested should give an incremental improvement, and I thing that's the closest you're going to get ever to a 757 replacement.  cloudnine 

Boeing has nothing to counter it on the horizon.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5708 times:



Quoting Avi8tir (Thread starter):
The 752 is my favorite aircraft. We all know that is stands alone as far as capability is concerned.

No we don't: it depends on what capability you are measuring and with what metric.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 2):
Few aircraft of that size have that much thrust for a quicker takeoff on shorter runways.

Being overpowered does nothing for the bottom line. There are few situations where this capability is required.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 2):
The 737-900 may be similar however I don't feel it measures up to the 757 with the characteristics I have mentioned above.

As noted, those characteristics don't necessarily make the airlines more profits than a 737 or an A-321 can in the majority of situations.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4):
There is also no comparison in the beauty of the 757 when compared to the 900.

Which, again, doesn't matter to an airline.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 7):
At the time the 757 was discontinued, there was very limited demand for a 752-type aircraft so there was no reason for any OEM to work on one.

 checkmark 

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 7):
At the time it was discontinued, there weren't enough orders to keep the line going at an economical rate.

 checkmark 

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 7):
have a very tough time believing that the business case would have worked out better keeping the 757.

 checkmark 

Quoting Olympic472 (Reply 10):
pilots still refer to the 727 as the "sports car" of airliners.

Pilots who I certainly don't know, apparently: my opinion of the 727 is quite to the contrary, especially as concerns takeoff and climb performance.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 11):
Will Boeing ever bring back the B 757?

No.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5384 times:



Quote:
I don't think it should ever have been discontinued. Few aircraft of that size have that much thrust for a quicker takeoff on shorter runways. Few aircraft like the 757 can provide that much seating for domestic and some overseas flights (which some airlines are starting to use them for) all in one aircraft.

In the future, in the dictionary under the term "hindsight", there will be a picture of the 757.

While it is true that orders had died out for it, it is indeed sad that Boeing did not have the foresight to tinker with the design a bit to offer a 21st century version of this beauty. I am certain that airlines would be snapping up orders for it left and right for the long & thin point-to-point routes.

Whatever Boeing decides to produce to be a true 757-200 replacement, here's what it has to live up to:

  • It will have to be able to take-off from PHX and LAS in the middle of summer at the hottest point of the day without being weight restricted (with the possible exception of HNL)

  • It will have to set take-off records for short distance. Getting airborne off of runway 27 at SAN before the Commuter Terminal is the standard now.

  • It will have to have U.S. East Coast to Europe capabilities. The further it can get into Europe (or the further it can get from Western Europe into the U.S.), the more successful it will be.

  • It will have offer a CASM equal to or better than the 757-200.

    Good luck Boeing!!



  • Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
    User currently offlineKanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3472 posts, RR: 27
    Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5199 times:
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    The 757 was a delight to build as well as fly... I worked on the program from the selection of the major suppliers through the last unit, working supporting the line in the process.

    No there will never be another 757, and last time I looked the final assembly manufacturing space was not filled with 737s but full of engineers and support people... although all the sub assembly buildings are gone and replaced with box stores and condos...

    one of the factors in the demise was the manufacturing model was too expensive to maintain... and switching to a 787 model was schedule prohibitive. They did try the 737 moving line which cost more than it saved... Flying sections in from subs would not have worked even though a 747 can land at Renton Field (they did for refurb following the initial flight test program)

    actually my favorite planes were the 4 VC-32a VP planes which had Boeing installed custom interiors ... something they do not do for BBJs.


    User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

    Some older ideas:

    Greenliner : http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z160/keesje_pics/greenliner-1.jpg
    A325/326 : http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/233825


    25 PGNCS : I am certain that if Boeing thought there was a sufficiently profitable market segment for a replacement aircraft they would build it. So far they ha
    26 EBJ1248650 : I suspect the days of 737-500 and -600 are over. The sales of the 739 indicate that many 737 users needed and therefore bought a larger version. Once
    27 Viscount724 : Comfort is up to the airline and the seating configuration, pitch etc. At equal seating density, the 757 is no more comfortable than the 737 or any e
    28 Tdscanuck : From who? Orders went to zero (not a little number, but actually to zero) three years before the production line closed. *Then* the fuel price went t
    29 MMEPHX : True, though there could be a need to start filling the 160-180 seat with a 3500-4000nm range niche in around 10 years time, which is when the early
    30 STT757 : Imagine the 757-300 with the range to reach Berlin from New York, that would be a great aircraft.
    31 CALPSAFltSkeds : Undoubtedly because the 737NG doesn't have enough ground clearance. The 757, which is out of production, does. That's possibility as the 752 has a st
    32 Tdscanuck : Airbus is testing their GTF on an A340. You could fit one under a 747 just as easily. Boeing has already publicly stated they can fit a GTF on a 737.
    33 Planemaker : It may not seem like a ways off... but 10 years time is. Who knows what CO will look like then, and by extension the industry. I believe that there w
    34 Leskova : They might, on the other hand, just decide to take a penalty on those days and make the plane more of an all-purpose aircraft, instead of one that's
    35 STT757 : The 767-200ER CO operates has the same capacity as their 757-200s, the difference being the 767-200ERs have a much higher CASM. A 757-300 would have
    36 F9Animal : I see total success with the 737NG's. Would 757NG's had been successful? Especially with such crazy fuel swings?
    37 Viscount724 : But CO 762s have higher revenue-generating ability since they have a larger J class cabin (25 seats vs. 16 on the 752). The 762 also has over 70% mor
    38 Richiemo : Great thread on the mighty "57". Always has been my favorite. I stray occasionally to the 777, or the 321. But I always come back to the 757. The most
    39 FrmrCAPCADET : I want a little twin aisle, 2-3-2, unfortunately that extra seat over 3-3 seems to do things to aerodynamics!
    40 Jfk777 : The 757 of today is an A321 or a 737-900ER. The future 757 will be those two and an 787-8 for international routes. TO make any one sit for 8 hours fr
    41 Nws2002 : They should only be 777 if they have the aircraft available and can fill it. If a consumer doesn't want to fly on a 757 there are plenty of other air
    42 Fanofjets : Perhaps 10 years from now, we will be singing an old song, that the only replacement for a 757 is another 757.
    43 Lovetojetblue : It's called the 739 or A321 Simple
    44 SeaBosDca : ...if the old 757 is actually being used for missions that need a 757. There are almost 1000 757-200s out there, but only 200 at most actually being
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