MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15814 posts, RR: 50 Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9396 times:
GRUJFK is also reduced to 6 weekly for March and May
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22258 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9327 times:
Old news. Discontinuation was pub almost 2 months ago.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15814 posts, RR: 50 Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9183 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 3): Should be reduced year round considering they will reduce it to give 1 frequency to the new service LAX-GRU.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15814 posts, RR: 50 Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9000 times:
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8809 times:
other carriers don't operate all of their Brazil frequencies - the evidence of it is in DOT filings; I'm not sure what the big issue is when DL does it.
Argentina is never as strong in the US summer as Brazil is - Brazil peaks two times a year, most of S. America only peaks during US winter.
It has also been documented that Argentina IS getting hit by the economic crisis.
It is in DL's interest to fly the JFK-EZE airplane time across the Atlantic during the summer. DL reduces transatlantic frequencies and cancels some markets during the US winter, providing airplane time for new or increase Latin frequencies.
By next winter (US), DL will probably fly JFK-EZE again at least seasonally and based on the economy at that point, they may extend it longer term.
The bottom line is that in order for JFK-EZE to be flown year round, it has to do at least as well as a DL transatlantic opportuity for that aircraft could do.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15814 posts, RR: 50 Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8428 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10): I'm not sure what the big issue is when DL does it.
It's just interesting to note that DL cannot seem to make anything work to Latin America from JFK.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10): It has also been documented that Argentina IS getting hit by the economic crisis.
DL has always been the weakest player on GRUNYC on the revenue side, and before this cut I thought it was actually doing ok. Now I'm not so sure. If GRUNYC doesn't work for them, EZEJFK never had a prayer, especially after AA added additional capacity. If DL is scraping by on GRUJFK, EZEJFK is going to be much worse since the fares are lower and the market size is smaller, regardless of what Christina is doing to the Argentine economy.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10): By next winter (US), DL will probably fly JFK-EZE again at least seasonally and based on the economy at that point, they may extend it longer term.
Considering the flight was zeroed out about 4 days into operation, I'd be surprised if that were the case.
Quoting LH469 (Reply 11): Does the route authority allow GRU-EZE tag for low season, (i.e. JFK-GRU-EZE)?
I assume so--I'd imagine ANAC would be thrilled to have on less plane parked in GRU, but the economics of a tag are going to be worse than just flowing the traffic over ATL.
Yellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5285 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8150 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13): It's just interesting to note that DL cannot seem to make anything work to Latin America from JFK
or LAX...anyone else beginning to notice a pattern for DL? Anything to LatAm/CentAm they try to add outside of ATL tends not to be the stunning success ...even ATL has some suspect routes....MGA for example.
One bright spot i must say seems to be GEO....they hit that one out of the park....but they have struck on so many other at bats.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15814 posts, RR: 50 Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8069 times:
Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 17): One bright spot i must say seems to be GEO
Absolutely, although I'd argue GEO isn't really Latin so much as Caribbean, and half the population of Guyana (not really, but it seems like half) happens to live in Queens within a stones' throw of JFK, similar to Domincans, Haitians, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans and other islanders with heavy VFR demand.
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3024 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7998 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13): It's just interesting to note that DL cannot seem to make anything work to Latin America from JFK.
DL can't seem to make flights work from JFK when they have strong competition. Routes like FRA, AMS, CDG, etc. are all getting cut back to 752s, yet these are key markets from JFK. GRU is a lackluster performer from JFK (always has been), and BOM was a very successful route at first but was moved to ATL. LHR isn't doing well for DL either. The routes that are the strongest are those with no competition, not necessarily the premium markets. I wonder if JFK-NRT will have the same fate.
I don't know what it will take, but it seems they have a ways to go if they truly want to be a preferred carrier from JFK. The hard product needs lots of work, especially in J. Maybe the rumored upgrades will help with that.
C010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3528 posts, RR: 21 Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6337 times:
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17): GRU is a lackluster performer from JFK (always has been)
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17): The routes that are the strongest are those with no competition
That's why it was really hard to understand why DL didn't go for GIG instead of GRU at first. GIG didn't have NYC service for years and now that JJ flies it, a blood bath is on its way for the frequencies to GIG.
LVICS From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2380 times:
Well, I always read on this forums that making a route work takes a while. I guess this is not an easy question, but how long is an airline supposed to work on that before quitting?
In my case, I'll hardly trust DL again. After reading in a local forum about the nonstop ending in late March, I called Delta, since I was booked to fly EZE-JFK first days of April. They said that it was OK, that my itinerary didn't show any changes and that the nonstop was operative until Oct. 30, 2009. Two days later I called again, same answer. That very same day I made a third attempt, but this time I didn't ask about my itinerary, I didn't identify myself and I pretended I wanted to make a new reservation instead, and guess what: now they DID know the nonstop was not going to be operative during April. What the f...? Why were they not telling me the truth before?
Now guess what: I'm booked on AA, and I intend to avoid DL as much as possible.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11230 posts, RR: 61 Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2070 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 18): That's why it was really hard to understand why DL didn't go for GIG instead of GRU at first. GIG didn't have NYC service for years and now that JJ flies it, a blood bath is on its way for the frequencies to GIG.
The concept that only Sao Paulo is profitable even being ATL-GIG always a very good performer. Now with more services from JFK and MIA to other places in Brazil, DL schedule from JFK to GRU is the worst, even being the one that allows late night departure out of JFK, but it's not good for connections in Brazil. And to rely on Sao Paulo market, they need to compete against AA (Better product and schedule), JAL (also better product), TAM (better product and perfect schedule for Brazilians and connections in GRU). Not to forget about CO, but they even use a smaller plane.
Would a JFK-GIG DL product a winner ? It depends on the schedule. AA product JFK-GIG i believe is surprising AA... today it's again full on C although a 777 thru GRU has availability. It's always like that ? I don't know.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3789 posts, RR: 14 Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1989 times:
Quoting LVICS (Reply 19): I guess this is not an easy question, but how long is an airline supposed to work on that before quitting?
That depends on the airline's tolerance for losses and how big a hole a new flight is digging. A longhaul flight with a large aircraft can easily cost 120 thousand dollars per departure. One year of daily flights will have 730 departures, so we are talking 80 or 90 million dollars per year. Just from this figure you can see that a flight does not have to do too horribly to lose a million USD per month. Airlines, like supermarkets, count cents and work with tight margins so any new flight that is not getting enough bookings to lose a small number may get deleted before service starts.
If a service gets started and is losing money but the airline is unsure about keeping it, it may wait for a whole cycle of seasons to get a better picture of revenue around the year and then evaluate the flight's potential again.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4595 posts, RR: 25 Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1606 times:
Incidentally, JFK-GRU is being upgauged to a 767-400ER starting July 1, 2009. Flights already loaded and the seat map shows the new configuration with the full-lie-flat seats in BusinessElite (four seats across).
Yellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5285 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1527 times:
Quoting LVICS (Reply 19): Well, I always read on this forums that making a route work takes a while. I guess this is not an easy question, but how long is an airline supposed to work on that before quitting?
In my case, I'll hardly trust DL again. After reading in a local forum about the nonstop ending in late March, I called Delta, since I was booked to fly EZE-JFK first days of April. They said that it was OK, that my itinerary didn't show any changes and that the nonstop was operative until Oct. 30, 2009. Two days later I called again, same answer. That very same day I made a third attempt, but this time I didn't ask about my itinerary, I didn't identify myself and I pretended I wanted to make a new reservation instead, and guess what: now they DID know the nonstop was not going to be operative during April. What the f...? Why were they not telling me the truth before?
Now guess what: I'm booked on AA, and I intend to avoid DL as much as possible.
You are not alone my friend...we had some friends coming from Argentina first week if April who got the same treatment from DL after I told them it would be cancelled. They got mad at me for "not knowing what I was talking about"...
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
25 Hardiwv: DL is only reducing JFK-GRU to allow for LAX-GRU 3 x week. In fact, DL JFK-GRU is doing okay, is certainly not a major winner, but cerainly a sustain
26 WorldTraveler: The facts I do know is that DL is quite comfortable with JFK-GRU. People persist years after the route was started that DL doesn't do well on JFK-GRU
27 Hardiwv: I fully agree with your points above. DL is confortable with JFK-GRU and in fact will introduce the B767-400ER and its top BE product with lie-flat s
28 LipeGIG: This will put DL product in better conditions against the competition. Better than new TAM seats !
29 MaverickM11: Incorrect. The reduction occurs three months prior to GRULAX starting.
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 61 posts, 
From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11230 posts, 
From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, 
From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3094 posts, 
From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31156 posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3024 posts, 
From France, joined Dec 2003, 2092 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
